Taking knives apart

[Danke42]

Oh yes, I know. Before that in other industries. There can be some valid reasons for doing it.

The only thing you can convince me that is a good reason in this example is to make things waterproof. However, there are other ways to do so (some cheaper), like sealing the housing or using conformal coatings. Epoxy is just a middle finger to the consumer in this application, IMO. Especially with the replacement costs for a pretty simple board. Shouldn't be more than $40-$50. But I digress.

They just do it so you can't hack the board.

 

[SpyderPhreak]

They just do it so you can't hack the board.

Which isn't a good reason, IMO. But I get it too.

 

[5-by-5]

If you disassemble a product for any reason it's yours period. There are no checks and balances or agreed upon experts disassembling questioned product. Get a lawyer.

Say you disassemble an engine and scan the crank. Inclusions are found. The whole engine is yours. Get a lawyer

 

[T. Erdelyi]

I fix everything I can, whether the manufacturer intended it or not, if it's gone out of the typical 30-day to one year warranty. But that's only because I have the engineering/electronic/mechanical skills, and the tools to properly do so. 98% of the people out there don't, to put it bluntly. The problem is that half (or more) of that 98% thinks they do.

Jared, I've been takin' stuff apart and fixin' it since I was a kid. I've been in the trades for 40+ years so there isn't much I haven't worked on. I'm with you in that I own my tools and 99.9% of the time I'm my own warranty dept. too. As a machinist/fabricator I can make most of my own parts if I have the facilities available to use to make them.

Sal I've been takin' apart any Spyderco I've owned with no issues but that's just me and like Jared my background makes it no issue as I would never ask you to repair or replace any part I broke, I would pay whatever was necessary for any repair I couldn't do myself. I also understand that the average person is not capable or has the tools or facility to do the work properly and by allowing them to work on the knives themselves opens you up to a whole host of problems and issues.

Many years ago in the middle 80s when Buck had come out with the Titanium 186 and it was advertised to be serviceable in the field and easily reassembled in the field too. They made the knife for a little over a year and changed production mid run and went from socket head machine screws to rivets with no explanation and never offered the takedown buck again. I asked Buck how many they made that were able to be taken apart and also why they had changed the manufacturing of the knife?

The response from one of the Bucks themselves, (I forget which one, I wanna say Chuck) was because they had gotten so many knives returned for reassembly or that had been improperly assembled by the owner it became cost prohibitive. Everytime people took it apart to clean they sent it back or they'd strip out the screws or just lose them. In not so many words Buck said that the people weren't equipped or teained to take apart and reassembled the knives and it was cheaper and easier in the long run to just rivet them and remove the problem.

Most tamper proof or tamper protected devices aren't really to someone who know how to correctly disassemble and repair tools and devices in the first place so even tamper proof/resistant screws won't stop me but I'm not the one you have to worry about, it's the other 98% of the 2% that think they can fix stuff you gotta be concerned with. As for providing nontypically user servicable parts to the owners of Spyderco knives? If they send it in for a warranty repair and you fix it it's covered but if you send them parts to install on their own then the warranty is voided with the exception of pocket clip screws and the like.

Some folks say they build a Sebenza and encourage you to take it apart. That's true but you're talkin' about a knife that on average is $400+ so the price reflects the tight tolerances they maintain to enable the owners to take them apart. Even with that the PB washers are hand fit and they will not send those out, you need to ship them the knife for pivot problems.

No matter which way you go Sal someone's gonna be unhappy, I don't envy you and your position one bit sir. I just wanna add that any warranty work you've provided and your Service Dept including yourself have never been anything but professional and courteous any time or place I've ever had any dealings with your company and staff.

 

[G0blin]

If you disassemble a product for any reason it's yours period. There are no checks and balances or agreed upon experts disassembling questioned product. Get a lawyer.

Say you disassemble an engine and scan the crank. Inclusions are found. The whole engine is yours. Get a lawyer

that's exceedingly hardline and probably won't sit well with most people if Spyderco reverts to taking up that banner. ie perma-tite et all. but oh well, caveat emptor and such.

 

[5-by-5]

that's exceedingly hardline and probably won't sit well with most people if Spyderco reverts to taking up that banner. ie perma-tite et all. but oh well, caveat emptor and such.

I never suggested perma-anything.
I said you take it apart it's on you.

 

[tyyreaun]

so this is my point: if a knife owner with a degree of competency and care [which we have established are likely appalled at the second scenario] were to notice a fault in a knife, successfully disassemble said knife, but are UNABLE to right the problem at hand, I see absolutely no reason why a properly reassembled knife cannot be sent back for repairs.

it could be I'm misunderstanding the arguments being presented. I have no expectations of getting a REFUND if I disassemble a knife. I DO however expect not to be denied a REPAIR of a knife simply on the case that I took it apart to see if I could fix it myself and have NOT caused any additional damage to the internals.

that's exceedingly hardline and probably won't sit well with most people if Spyderco reverts to taking up that banner. ie perma-tite et all. but oh well, caveat emptor and such.

I think you're agreeing with most other people in this thread, but just saying it differently.

If you buy a knife, notice it's defective OR decide you don't like it, and immediately send it back to the retailer for a refund per their return policy, that's fine.

If you buy a knife, notice it has issues, take it apart to try to fix but cannot, and then send it back to the manufacturer for a warranty fix, that's fine too. Likewise, if you take it apart, find issues that you didn't cause, and send it back to the retailer as defective, that's fine too. To your point, if the manufacturer voided the warranty just because you took it apart, many (most?) people would be upset.

On the other hand, if you buy a knife, take it apart for any reason, put it back together, and return it to the retailer claiming it's new, unused (i.e., you're not claiming a defect), that's where most people would have problems.

Edited to add: the sticking point here is whether any issues found after disassembly were caused by the user, or were pre-existing conditions. That's probably the biggest risk of fraud for the retailer and manufacturer (I didn't do it! It was like that when I got it!) and I'm not sure there's a good answer to that, other than just assuming a certain degree of fraud will occur, and pricing that into your cost structure.

 

[SpyderPhreak]

Jared, I've been takin' stuff apart and fixin' it since I was a kid. I've been in the trades for 40+ years so there isn't much I haven't worked on. I'm with you in that I own my tools and 99.9% of the time I'm my own warranty dept. too. As a machinist/fabricator I can make most of my own parts if I have the facilities available to use to make them.

Sal I've been takin' apart any Spyderco I've owned with no issues but that's just me and like Jared my background makes it no issue as I would never ask you to repair or replace any part I broke, I would pay whatever was necessary for any repair I couldn't do myself. I also understand that the average person is not capable or has the tools or facility to do the work properly and by allowing them to work on the knives themselves opens you up to a whole host of problems and issues.

Many years ago in the middle 80s when Buck had come out with the Titanium 186 and it was advertised to be serviceable in the field and easily reassembled in the field too. They made the knife for a little over a year and changed production mid run and went from socket head machine screws to rivets with no explanation and never offered the takedown buck again. I asked Buck how many they made that were able to be taken apart and also why they had changed the manufacturing of the knife?

The response from one of the Bucks themselves, (I forget which one, I wanna say Chuck) was because they had gotten so many knives returned for reassembly or that had been improperly assembled by the owner it became cost prohibitive. Everytime people took it apart to clean they sent it back or they'd strip out the screws or just lose them. In not so many words Buck said that the people weren't equipped or teained to take apart and reassembled the knives and it was cheaper and easier in the long run to just rivet them and remove the problem.

Most tamper proof or tamper protected devices aren't really to someone who know how to correctly disassemble and repair tools and devices in the first place so even tamper proof/resistant screws won't stop me but I'm not the one you have to worry about, it's the other 98% of the 2% that think they can fix stuff you gotta be concerned with. As for providing nontypically user servicable parts to the owners of Spyderco knives? If they send it in for a warranty repair and you fix it it's covered but if you send them parts to install on their own then the warranty is voided with the exception of pocket clip screws and the like.

Some folks say they build a Sebenza and encourage you to take it apart. That's true but you're talkin' about a knife that on average is $400+ so the price reflects the tight tolerances they maintain to enable the owners to take them apart. Even with that the PB washers are hand fit and they will not send those out, you need to ship them the knife for pivot problems.

No matter which way you go Sal someone's gonna be unhappy, I don't envy you and your position one bit sir. I just wanna add that any warranty work you've provided and your Service Dept including yourself have never been anything but professional and courteous any time or place I've ever had any dealings with your company and staff.

Well said Ted, as per usual. I didn't paste my other (initial) post from the Spyderco forums over here (page 2 if you want to read it), but suffice to say we agree. No real surprise there.

 

[5-by-5]

If you buy a knife, notice it has issues, take it apart to try to fix but cannot, and then send it back to the manufacturer for a warranty fix, that's fine too. Likewise, if you take it apart, find issues that you didn't cause, and send it back to the retailer as defective, that's fine too. To your point, if the manufacturer voided the warranty just because you took it apart, many (most?) people would be ups

No! If you take a product apart you don't return it, period. You're no agreed upon expert. It's yours. Don't snivel

 

[wade7575]

I think another thing not to forget to what also help's to drive sales in some market's is the aftermarket I know people who buy PM2's just to put different scales on them like Allen Putman's for example now I'm not saying Spyderco should be on hook for the cost of replacement part's if someone damages something and then needs it replaced.I think Spyderco should offer part's kit's that contain just washers and screws and spacers and charge for them even if it's 25 bucks a kit and tell the customer they have to fix their knife as well and that's the price you pay if you want to take thing's apart.

Another classic example is the RC car world that has to be one of the best example where the aftermarket can really help drive the sales of the product's,just look at the E-Maxx RC Truck made by Traxxas a lot people buy them just to customize them to the point you can buy every part for an E-Maxx that is aftermarket and have a 100% aftermarket E-Maxx with not 1 Traxxas part on the whole thing.In the RC industry company's that make the RC Cars will give out a few finished kits to the makers of aftermarket hop up parts before the kit is even released that way when the Car is released the hop up parts won't be far behind I also know this for a fact because I used to work for 2 of Canada's biggest Hobby Distributors when I was younger.

I know this next statement is a catch 22 but if Spyderco put up video's showing people how to properly take apart a knife and readjust everything I don't know if it would help or not people messing thing's up at least when they went to put it back together if Spyderco offered replacement part's for a fee that still allowed them to make a small profit on them rather then take a loss that may help.

 

[uxo2]

. Disassembly of any kind and you can't return it.

Including pivot adjustment... A tool was taken to it.

Where do I take my PM2, flytanium scales and other custom parts for professional installation?
Thank you.

That is your problem to deal with.
Manufacture delivered their product to their standards.


It is a lot like going to a car lot and wanting Non OEM items added and then expect the manufacture to honor the warranty after you just supped up the engine beyond what the factory gave.

 

[5-by-5]

Where do I take my PM2, flytanium scales and other custom parts for professional installation?

Thank you.

You don't. LOL unless there's a Les Schwab for Spyderco

 

[Phixt]

Including pivot adjustment... A tool was taken to it.




That is your problem to deal with.
Manufacture delivered their product to their standards.


It is a lot like going to a car lot and wanting Non OEM items added and then expect the manufacture to honor the warranty after you just supped up the engine beyond what the factory gave.

You don't. LOL unless there's a Les Schwab for Spyderco

Oh, thanks guys.

Kinda confusing considering the thread, but I'll give it my best go

 

[tyyreaun]

If you take a product apart you don't return it, period.

So you have a problem if someone receives a defective product, tries to fix it themselves, cannot, and returns it as defective? I disagree. If the product is defective, the retailer can't sell it as new regardless - it has to go back to the manufacturer for repairs. If the user can fix it themselves and keeps it, it saves both the retailer and the manufacturer cost and effort - everyone is better off.

Of course that assumes the user 1) doesn't make the problem worse by trying to fix it, and 2) isn't lying about it being defective in the first place.

It is a lot like going to a car lot and wanting Non OEM items added and then expect the manufacture to honor the warranty after you just supped up the engine beyond what the factory gave.

Except that car manufacturers will continue to honor the warranty if the modification had nothing to do with the problems you're experiencing (e.g., if you added a body kit or a new stereo but end up having engine problems). That's the analog of policies from knife companies like Hinderer, that allow you to disassemble knives, gets parts anodized, etc., without automatically voiding your warranty.

 

[jay_tx]

That is your problem to deal with.
Manufacture delivered their product to their standards.

Ehh.. I've received Spydercos that upon opening the DETENT BALL FELL OUT. I think it's fair to mention that one of them was a $200+ folder.

By all means Sal and Spyderco Engineers know the ins and outs for sure and they set their standards and tolerances and build quality extremely high, but a human is still making the product on the production level and as we all know, humans may and can make mistakes.

 

[wade7575]

My opinion on that is you do it yourself but if you mess anything up it's your problem but that being said I do think a person should be able to purchase parts kits and not at a break even point for Spyderco where they can still make a bit of money off of for the hassle of having to supply parts kits.

Where do I take my PM2, flytanium scales and other custom parts for professional installation?

Thank you.

 

[MarkN86]

Reading more into this and having a few hours to think about it, I think that Nick is right, it may be a little harsh to have tamper evident seals on things like I was suggesting, not to mention be pointlessly costly. Just kinda made me mad that people actually send back knives they took apart. I guess voiding the warranty for just taking it apart is pretty strict, it's just hard to draw the line of what voids the warranty.

 

[G0blin]

I never suggested perma-anything.

you're misunderstanding. my point was simply if Spyderco decides to go not only back to using red lock-tite on their knives, but choose to add additional tamper-proof measures, I would view that as a reason not to buy their products.

I think you're agreeing with most other people in this thread, but just saying it differently.

I think I am, yeah. I was mainly trying to perhaps reason with the more hard line viewpoints by stating that nobody is FOR fraudulent behaviour, but few people care for unreasonable defensive reactions as well. there is room for compromise and ironing out problem areas.

I would also like to caution anybody rushing to lock down disassembly with other methods such as proprietary hardware. even Microtech sells the appropriate bits for their own screws, IIRC.

 

[danthaman1980]

I agree that it is wrong to return a knife as 'new' once you've disassembled it. No question or arguments there, in my opinion.
However, there are some scenarios under which a defect on a knife can be discovered only by taking a torx driver to it (stripped or untapped screw holes, etc.), and in those rare but possible cases, a consumer should have every right to return the knife to the retailer as defective, so long as they do so within the retailer's stated return period.

The disassembly vs. warranty argument, in my opinion, is completely separate topic. Typically, if you need warranty work on a Spyderco, you're dealing directly with Spyderco and not with the retailer so there is no chance for your previously disassembled knife to end up being sold as 'new' through a retailer. And while Spyderco should not cover damage caused by disassembly (but to the extent possible should offer to fix it for a reasonable fee)... Spyderco should cover defects that are not caused by disassembly, even if the knife has been disassembled and reassembled a hundred times.

 

[Phixt]

My opinion on that is you do it yourself but if you mess anything up it's your problem but that being said I do think a person should be able to purchase parts kits and not at a break even point for Spyderco where they can still make a bit of money off of for the hassle of having to supply parts kits.

I guess I was hoping there was 'that guy' that charged a fee to disassemble certain factory knives and replace with custom parts.

I can go to 20 different gunsmiths within 10 miles to have any custom work done on my bolt actions, but ask a craftsman to pimp your knife and you're standing in leftfield. I'm certainly not taking it to the train guy at hobbyshop!

What I already know thx to this section:

-Use heat just in case there's loctite.
-Have all correct tools (and more) on hand
-Watch the video dems
-Disassemble with blade engaged (yes I'm noob)
-Attention to lanyard tube
-Don't rush it

I have no problem with my semi autos...'I think I can I think I can'!

But it might go like this: