Taking knives apart

tyyreaun said:
So you have a problem if someone receives a defective product, tries to fix it themselves, cannot, and returns it as defective
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Well yes. How as a business owner do I trust the the expertise of random customer they have any experience? That's rediculous.
 
Phixt said:
I guess I was hoping there was 'that guy' that charged a fee to disassemble certain factory knives and replace with custom parts.
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To this point, there are absolutely knife modders out there that will customize knives for you - regrinds, custom scales, etc. While I don’t think they normally do basic scale replacements, I’m sure they would if asked, for a fee - hell, easy money, why not :). Try Razor Edge Knives.
 
5-by-5 said:
Well yes. How as a business owner do I trust the the expertise of random customer they have any experience? That's rediculous.
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See the two assumptions I stated just below the part you quoted.

Yes, there will always be people who abuse policies or just outright lie. The question is, is there a way to differentiate cheats from honest customers with mechanical skills, and if not, is it worth putting up with the first group to better serve the second.

Edited to add: what you’re suggesting is the Medford/Microtech approach, or more broadly, the Apple approach. That’s certainly one way to do business, but it’s not the only way.
 
G0blin said:
you're misunderstanding. my point was simply if Spyderco decides to go not only back to using red lock-tite on their knives, but choose to add additional tamper-proof measures, I would view that as a reason not to buy their products.
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No I'm not. Sal and no one, but descenters, has suggested perma-anything
 
I’m 100% with 5-by. Your torx bit touches a screw on a new knife and the knife is yours. Not elegible for refund or to be restocked and resold as new. You decide whether you’re keeping it before any attempt at adjustment.

Once it’s yours, then it’s a matter of warranty or repair.
 
tyyreaun said:
See the two assumptions I stated just below the part you quoted.

Yes, there will always be people who abuse policies or just outright lie. The question is, is there a way to differentiate cheats from honest customers with mechanical skills, and if not, is it worth putting up with the first group to better serve the second.

Edited to add: what you’re suggesting is the Medford/Microtech approach, or more broadly, the Apple approach. That’s certainly one way to do business, but it’s not the only way.
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What I'm implying is if someone is not in one's employ there is no credible assurance of any expertise. Period.
 
anycal said:
I’m 100% with 5-by. Your torx bit touches a screw on a new knife and the knife is yours. Not elegible for refund or to be restocked and resold as new. You decide whether you’re keeping it before any attempt at adjustment.

Once it’s yours, then it’s a matter of warranty or repair.
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Yes. How is this not simple and clear.
 
I honestly don't see why it's so hard to take a knife apart for some people,I know a friend of mine who gets me to sharpen his ZT0566 also get's me to clean it and re-grease the washers every time and I have taken it apart a dozen times or more and have to strip a screw but then again I also take a different approach to it then most people.
For example does everyone think you need to really crank the screws down on a knife for anyways the do not vibrate,what I do for my friends ZT0566 is on the side of the knife that dos not have the torsion bar for the spring assist I blue locktite the screws on that side of the knife and never take them out then when I clean and re-grease it for him I just tighten the screws on the side of the knife that are on the torsion bar side,also when I tighten the screws that are on the torsion bar side I only turn them a tiny bit,how I do it is this way and never had any problems I use no locktite on the side with the torsion bar all I do is turn the screws in gently until they stop and then look at each screw as if it were the face of a clock and the wrench like it's the minute and turn from the 12 position to the 1 position a just a tad more but barely much at all if I feel it needs it.

I know the first time he seen me do it he said that not tight enough and I told him that's how I put mine back together everytime and I have never had a problem with the unlocktited side coming loose and he said again no way that will never work so I told well here's the wrench then and if you strip anything or mess anything up I'm not fixing sharpening it or calling to get you new parts either and told him also the reason why I won't being doing any of thing's I just mentioned is because it's clear to me your the expert and I'm just idiot so I won't be of any help to you removing that screw you just stripped,after I said that he was pretty quick to shut up because he knows if I had a problem with the way I was putting my ZT0566 back together I would admit it I think his problem was when he seen how little I tightened the torsion bar side screws he thought there was no way these are ever going to stay tight.

Phixt said:
I guess I was hoping there was 'that guy' that charged a fee to disassemble certain factory knives and replace with custom parts.

I can go to 20 different gunsmiths within 10 miles to have any custom work done on my bolt actions, but ask a craftsman to pimp your knife and you're standing in leftfield. I'm certainly not taking it to the train guy at hobbyshop! :D

What I already know thx to this section:

-Use heat just in case there's loctite.
-Have all correct tools (and more) on hand
-Watch the video dems
-Disassemble with blade engaged (yes I'm noob)
-Attention to lanyard tube
-Don't rush it

I have no problem with my semi autos...'I think I can I think I can'!

But it might go like this:
:D:):cool::confused::oops::(:eek::mad:o_O:rolleyes::thumbsdown:
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I think the best policy for Spyderco is if the knife has a stripped screw head or if a spacer is stripped when they get it is to not fix the knife send it back at the customers expense and if the customer wants to pay for replacement parts if Spyderco wants to offer them at a cost would be the best to deal with thing's.

If a knife is sent out from the factory there should not be any stripped screws so there for the only way it could have been stripped is if someone has taken it apart,but the other problem is what if the knife is returned for a refund then you now have to prove who stripped it,I honestly think that's why when it comes to the stripped screw problem anyway parts kits should be sent out at a cost to the customer and they should have to fix it.
 
Just wanted to share, I’ve been lucky and never got a bad Spyderco, including my Advocate, which apparently was sh*t from the beginning. I’ve had bad knives from every other manufacturer besides Spyderco.
 
I think this kind of problem is not isolated to spyderco themselves but probably every knife company and even just most consumer products. Cost of business I suppose.

That fine line of what to do for the most profit. Loctite it and maybe lose customers. No disassembly clause? But maybe you won’t lose any customers. Just a vocal minority.

The best solution is a tight tolerance knife that even an imbecile can maintain (crk) although nothing is fool proof. But then that increase costs.

I wonder which knives are the culprit. I just want to say that my experiences with the pm2 is all over the place and if it happens to be that then better Cqi is in order.

Do you ask the dealer to inspect before shipping ? Too tedious, they are just a middle man.
I think best is to leave a note to the customer that if there is problems contact us, then the dealer suggest a return.
 
My take is
1. People taking apart a knife and returning it is wrong.
2. People messing up their knife and expecting Spyderco to fix it free is wrong.
3. Spyderco thinking a knife is too complex to disassemble by the average person is wrong.
4. Spyderco defaulting to assuming the customer messed up a knife during disassembly is wrong.

Assuming this really is the big issue it's being seen as, seems like instead of going negative like this, the "shiny" way forward for the company is to make knives that are more easily serviceable. Make the knives easier to take down and put out disassembly videos yourselves. You'd be framing the message your own way then (with preambles about disassembly damage not being fixed for free and the whole process not being recommended).

I know the argument to this will be that the result will be more people disassembling, but I doubt that. There are already howtos and videos on disassembly, so if that's all it takes to get someone to do it, we're already there. Instead, the company is replacing those with the proper warnings, downsides, and methods. You're just improving the ability of those who were already going to service their knife while also warning of consequences.
 
anycal said:
I’m 100% with 5-by. Your torx bit touches a screw on a new knife and the knife is yours. Not elegible for refund or to be restocked and resold as new. You decide whether you’re keeping it before any attempt at adjustment.

Once it’s yours, then it’s a matter of warranty or repair.
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Just like buying something used on the FS Section.
And everyone on GB&U agrees.
You receive it and it is not as advertised. Send it back to the seller for a refund.
But if you open it or do any adjustments to it.

IT IS YOURS because you messed with it.


As for
Spyderco if they went back to rivets... I would not buy.
If they went back to RED LOCKTITE I still would buy and not care because I have the right tools and
know how to get around it.


To suggest again

A tamper proof peel away film/sticker on the scales that covers the screws but that is thin enough
that it allows the end user to handle the knife.
So they can get a feel for it.. Possible have a patch cutout so the feel the texture of the scale.

There are a lot of manufactures that have tamper proof seals on their products for various reasons.

One is for various reasons.... To prevent TAMPERING.
Medicine...Tylenol poisonings.
Foods... Air tight seals. Its for freshness and tampering.
You ever try to return a open can of Pringles or a Soda/Pop can?

And once you break the seal.

IT IS YOURS.
 
Sal Glesser said:
Taking knives apart

Every month we get back hundreds of knives that have been returned to dealers. These knives have been played with, taken apart, re-assembled and then returned to the dealer as "new" for a refund. Dealers will just put them back on the shelf to send to some other poor customers that believes he's getting a new knife. It isn't a new knife; it has been taken apart and put back together by an amateur. Most (95%) of the time a knife is taken apart by an amateur it is not put back together properly so the new customer gets screwed by the previous customer.


Now we have the dealers return the knives to us so as to prevent this from happening. We then have to QC the knives a 2nd time and generally 2nd them. This is an expensive time taker and a loss to our company which has to be put into the costs of doing business which raises the costs of the products.


We ask our customers not to do this. We don't send out internal parts because it encourages customers to take apart their knives. These are not Tinker Toys or Lego sets, they re precision pieces. Follow our procedures and we will take care of you.


We've set up distributors all over the world to try to get the product to our customers and service their needs and problems. This is also expensive and many customers will complain about the cost and try to find ways around it, and then complain when they have a problem that circumvents all of the solutions we have tried to put into place.

We have not been able to figure out a way to sort this. Every month we get numerous customers getting on the forum and complaining publicly that we are screwing our customers. They want to have everything done the way they want it because “they have a reason”. We don’t expect them to understand all that is involved, and often they refuse to because they simply want what they want, which is often unreasonable and more costly to us than the solutions we have already put into place..


We set out policies to be able to solve issues and still make good products, please our customers and maintain a business. Perhaps this can be an ongoing discussion?


Thanx,


sal
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Seal the knife in the plastic sleeve.

If the seal is broken authorized dealers should be forbidden from accepting returns. Any manufacturing defects on a truly new knife can be resolved through the manufacturer.

If you've taken it apart and screwed it up yourself then a fee to fix would be understandable. If the damage is substantial that is. I'd assume that a washer or screw could be absorbed at no cost to the customer.

I've never returned an item to a dealer, aside from Wal-Mart crap, because of a manufacturing defect and I've certainly never taken something apart and then returned it under the guise of still being new.

The policy as I've laid out above seems more than reasonable to me and I wouldn't fault any manufacturer for implementing it. It protects all parties involved from unreasonable risk and expense.
 
anycal said:
Charge a restocking fee unless there is an issue
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I know I'm replying to this comment super late, but I was just reading Sal's corresponding thread on the Spyderco forum, and a lot of people there are suggesting restocking fees. Just wanted to add my thoughts on it.

Other than the fact that Spyderco most likely can't really dictate the return policies of their retailers, there's also the fact that restocking fees can backfire, as in this story:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/15/books/chapters/freakonomics.html

Basically speaking, most people aren't jerks, realize that product returns are a cost to the retailer, and refrain from doing too many. If you start charging a restocking fee, suddenly the returns aren't a cost to the dealer - they might even be profitable if the returned knife really is like new. A lot of the morality around avoiding returns goes away.
 
uxo2 said:
A tamper proof peel away film/sticker on the scales that covers the screws but that is thin enough
that it allows the end user to handle the knife.
So they can get a feel for it.. Possible have a patch cutout so the feel the texture of the scale.

There are a lot of manufactures that have tamper proof seals on their products for various reasons.
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the problem then becomes, how do you prove you haven't mucked with the seal? 10 million things could happen that could ding something like that, not to mention old age. if you happen to accidentally break the seal, and then send it in with all good "no, honest guvnah!" intentions, how are they going to prove you didn't do it intentionally?

unless you're talking about a seal that would wear off by itself after a period of time to simulate a warranty period ending. in that case, why would I buy a knife that I to handle like an egg to prolong the artificial warranty period?

again, it bothers me that people are so quick to suggest all these methods. it may be out of good will towards the maker and I think we all have that at heart, but all of these methods are sounding like trying to eat boiling soup in a canoe.
 
T.L.E. Sharp said:
Seal the knife in the plastic sleeve.

If the seal is broken authorized dealers should be forbidden from accepting returns. Any manufacturing defects on a truly new knife can be resolved through the manufacturer.

If you've taken it apart and screwed it up yourself then a fee to fix would be understandable. If the damage is substantial that is. I'd assume that a washer or screw could be absorbed at no cost to the customer.

I've never returned an item to a dealer, aside from Wal-Mart crap, because of a manufacturing defect and I've certainly never taken something apart and then returned it under the guise of still being new.

The policy as I've laid out above seems more than reasonable to me and I wouldn't fault any manufacturer for implementing it. It protects all parties involved from unreasonable risk and expense.
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Sort of a great idea and not so great depending on the person.
That would bring a whole new level of collectability in knives. :) also assure “new” never used actually means that haha.
Not so great for users who don’t like warranty. The warranty service must be at a high level which then go back to the added cost.

On my first and last knife warranty experience, I Had a 5 month turnaround and I had to fix the knife myself in the end. I decided to try the warranty as it was supposed to be good and the dealer had a restocking fee. They were good in that they paid the ship fee to them but bumbled the whole process in delays, poor communication and botching the warranty.
I refuse to use a restocking fee dealer again and I have in the past just return a knife that had an apparent problem to a dealer(didn’t disassemble). Those type of good CS dealers earned repeat purchases even if the price was higher. In addition I asked that restocking fee dealer to inspect before shipping lol.
 
wade7575 said:
I think the best policy for Spyderco is if the knife has a stripped screw head or if a spacer is stripped when they get it is to not fix the knife send it back at the customers expense and if the customer wants to pay for replacement parts if Spyderco wants to offer them at a cost would be the best to deal with thing's.
....
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Only if Spyderco makes sure never use those white threadlocker like found on Cara Cara clip and body screws. Having said that, Charlynn did help me out when the screws stripped beyond recognition and my T6 twisted like pretzel.

I’d think the solution isn’t that simple.
 
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