The Bears' Den--Shirogorov Showcase

[Adamas]

I believe F3 Outdoor is supposed to be offered by the only official US dealer TODAY.

The first Outdoor project (60 knives) was released at the end of 2020, it was made for 27th Arsenal Show in Moscow, but also some were sold on maker's own site:

They are available right now on recon1.com.

My hunch is they won’t sell out fast and may sit…

Now, if I can get my hands on a Stellar First Production…

 

[ChazzyP]

All boxes for my recently bought 90-111mm Shiro knives seems to be of the same size -- F95 Zero, 111 Gen.5.1, Terrus, Stellar.

The only one smaller is for 85mm Neon R20:

Thanks for those pics. The answer, then, regarding any change in the boxes, would be "yes" as relates to most of my acquisitions. Your recently bought knives' boxes are all of the deeper variety than mine, which are certainly not of a more recent vintage, save for the Quantum Ursus NL. Here's a poorly lit pic I just snapped on top of my tall knife cabinet in our bedroom.




You'll note the QUNL box is of the deeper variety, like your more recents, while the one to the right is from my F95R, purchased here and vintage circa 2018, which, aside from the Ursus, is the newest of my 9 Shiro's. BTW, that knife was sourced from the workshop by an excellent individual Russian re-seller who was very active here a while back and includes a white workshop 3 Bears COA. (I have bought a few more Shiro's since the F95R, though all but one are older.) That shallower box is the only older one of mine to include a slide-out tray.

As an aside, when I went to snap these I noticed the boxes from my recently acquired, vintage Al Mar Eagle HD & UL in the background, so I pulled them forward just for comparison's sake. Granted, the original price points for those two were around a quarter of Shiro pricing, but AMKs are indeed high quality, Seki City knives (true Al Mars were said to be custom quality at production pricing) and the boxes were of the same (flimsy) material and style as their Shiro counterparts, including the little pull tabs that one has to be careful not to pull off.

 

[Bacchus]

My hunch is they won’t sell out fast and may sit…

I would not bet on that since only 50 pieces were produced...

 

[Sagandavis]

They are available right now

My hunch is they won’t sell out fast and may sit…


Now, if I can get my hands on a Stellar First Production…

Could be.. I went ahead and snagged one. I’m also on the hunt for the stellar. I’m going to be listing a couple soon to clear some space and funds

 

[DocJekl]

If I'm getting an outdoor knife with pouch and no pocket clip, I just don't see myself making it an expensive Shiro with a bright orange highlight, even if it's nice to have a one handed opener.

 

[ChazzyP]

I agree, Doc, though that's a personal preference and not meant to cast shade on anyone that finds the F3 Outdoor attractive or useful. My outdoor knife for our woods and fields up North is my bright orange FRN Endura, the color for its homing beacon brightness in the wild. It won't break the bank should it get lost either, though I do often find myself with my orange Hati user on me when logging, mowing, or brush hogging on our acreage.

I also think that if I'm going to carry something on my belt it might as well be a fixy in a sheath instead of a folder in a pouch--much more convenient. I also noticed from the workshop pics that it looks like the pouch is set up for tip down carry due to the flipper tab which, to me, just seems to make the whole withdrawal and deployment process more involved than simply pulling a clipped tip-up folder from a pocket--at a lower, easier angle. I don't recall hearing much carry and use feedback from the previous release of the original 111 Outdoor and wonder if it really caught on re its intended use.

 

[z1krause]

Got myself another Grail in the mail this week - this has been a truly incredible week for me. Cant believe I finally got one! I've been lusting after the Stellar SR since the first pictures were out there, and looking since then.

Grail for sure! If you ever want to let that SR go let me know.

 

[Bacchus]

If I'm getting an outdoor knife with pouch and no pocket clip, I just don't see myself making it an expensive Shiro with a bright orange highlight, even if it's nice to have a one handed opener.

Man, don’t ruin it for us

I’m kidding… not sure myself, that it will actually fit the outdoor niche (not that I really expect any kind of for regular outdoor activity).

But IMHO F3 has the most comfortable grip of all production Shiros — it might be even better without the clip.

Anyway, it seems rare enough to be exchanged for some other model you need.

 

[Cwilliams563]

I personally don’t get the “no clip” on these, kinda weird. I mean if someone doesn’t want a clip, then they can remove it. That alone is enough for me not to purchase one. Just my .02

 

[Pompous]

I personally don’t get the “no clip” on these, kinda weird. I mean if someone doesn’t want a clip, then they can remove it. That alone is enough for me not to purchase one. Just my .02

I am definitely not the target demo for these knives - I hate the color combos - but yeah agree no clip makes 0 sense.

 

[DocJekl]

So, now I don't feel so bad for being the first one to "say it"

 

[Sagandavis]

I bought it a bit impulsively but am still excited about it. Like a buck 110 Shiro edition. No regrets! So far…

 

[DocJekl]

I bought it a bit impulsively but am still excited about it. Like a buck 110 Shiro edition. No regrets! So far…

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trashing your decision or anyone else's - I even started to say to myself, "...without a clip, and adding a lanyard, that would make it a good deep front pocket knife."

It's just if I am doing some heavy knife work outdoors, and carrying it on my belt, I'm either going to go for something (1) heavy and indestructible, or (2) cheap enough to not cry when I snap or chip the blade.

 

[Bacchus]

It's just if I am doing some heavy knife work outdoors, and carrying it on my belt, I'm either going to go for something (1) heavy and indestructible, or (2) cheap enough to not cry when I snap or chip the blade.

I know a few huntsmen / outdoorsman who really put Shiro knives to hard use.

But speaking frankly all of them are knives enthusiasts, hence their decisions are not purely rational. On the contrary, those people desire practical experience with the knives. Their moto could be something like "life's too short, I want to actually use my folders, not just admire them platonically."

So they tend to use Shiro knives for fun when a common user (not an enthusiast) would choose a fixed blade or a dispensable folder.

Some of those people would even insist that Shiro knives are not less utilitarian than CRK's.

While it should be obvious for anyone that hollow grind is more prone to multiple sharpening procedures without loosing cutting performance, their key argument is that Shiro steel choice and proper heat treatment makes sharpening a rather rare routine.

But again, a real hard use means possible chipping and subsequent reprofiling. And the absence of choil makes Shiro blades PITA to reprofile.

Not to mention “loose bearings vs washers” aspect.

To sum up -- in case I really need a folder for hard-use outdoor activity, my choice would be CRK Inkosi, RHK XM-18, or Strider SMF, not Shiro Luckily, I do not really need an outdoor folder, just want to have a closer look before trading it for something more appropriate for a city boy.

"...without a clip, and adding a lanyard, that would make it a good deep front pocket knife."

My experience of carring Spyderco Brad Southard flipper without a clip (it was both ugly and inconvenient, hence removed almost immediately) was so positive, that I risked to order a custom trout from AndyE without both clip and lanyard hole We had a mutual agreement with the knife maker, that a clip would ruin the concept of a minimalist gentleman pocket folder (100mm blade), slim (10mm) and lightweight (85g).

 

[ChazzyP]

Interesting post, B Bacchus . I have no problem using at least some of my Shiro's for work or outdoors. It has less to do with their configurations and more to do with which ones I want to keep a bit nicer. All my Shiros get carried and used to varying extents. The work knives of those are my Hati and Tabargan, both on washers (again, coincidentally), along with my F95T SRBS. I probably use the latter as much as the two formers combined. It does get full of slimy blackness and I break it down to clean in maybe 1-year-plus cycles. Yeah, the loose bearings are a little bit of a pain, but I'm careful and very used to the process so I have it down and don't consider it a big deal.

I carry three of my Sebenzas for work as well--2 21's and a 25-- and they and the washered Shiros get broken down less often as one would assume, though not a lot less. Interestingly, the Hati has a bearing pivot just like the two CRK 21's and gets dis- and re-assembled the same way with the bearing, blade, and washers in and out of the front as a unit. The Tabargan, with its sliding bar lock, is handled similarly, much as how a BMK AXIS lock knife is best dealt with.

I like having some of my priciest knives used in outdoor or work situations, as they're arguably the best-made and best-designed, perform accordingly, and are a pleasure to use.

 

[Bacchus]

Interesting post, B Bacchus . I have no problem using at least some of my Shiro's for work or outdoors. It has less to do with their configurations and more to do with which ones I want to keep a bit nicer. All my Shiros get carried and used to varying extents. The work knives of those are my Hati and Tabargan, both on washers (again, coincidentally), along with my F95T SRBS. I probably use the latter as much as the two formers combined. It does get full of slimy blackness and I break it down to clean in maybe 1-year-plus cycles. Yeah, the loose bearings are a little bit of a pain, but I'm careful and very used to the process so I have it down and don't consider it a big deal.

I carry three of my Sebenzas for work as well--2 21's and a 25-- and they and the washered Shiros get broken down less often as one would assume, though not a lot less. Interestingly, the Hati has a bearing pivot just like the two CRK 21's and gets dis- and re-assembled the same way with the bearing, blade, and washers in and out of the front as a unit. The Tabargan, with its sliding bar lock, is handled similarly, much as how a BMK AXIS lock knife is best dealt with.

I like having some of my priciest knives used in outdoor or work situations, as they're arguably the best-made and best-designed, perform accordingly, and are a pleasure to use.

ChazzyP , thank you very much for sharing your outdoor experience.

AFAIK, early Hati and 111 were the only Shiro flippers with pivot bushing feature. Congratulations on having one of those.

BTW, 111 bushing was made of brass (or bronze?), is it correct for Hati as well?

I would really appreciate if you consider providing some further details about using both CRK and Shiro in similar situations:
-- what are the most frequent outdoor tasks for your folders? Are they used as secondary blades for finer slicing jobs?
-- what kind of damage do the edges usually take and how do you keep them sharp?
-- what kind of steel do you have on your folders and do you notice any accountable difference between Shiro and CRK in edge holding ability?

Thanks a lot in advance!

 

[ChazzyP]

B Bacchus , you've left me with a little head-scratching, digging through my pic files, and research to do here, but no worries, it's a bit of fun to have later on what's been a most pleasant Father's Day here.

I found these pics of my Hati over at the disassembly thread. In the first, pre-cleaning pic, the light's a little funny but it kinda looks like the pivot bushing might be brass...



...while in this post-cleaning shot, the contrast with the stainless pivot screw receiver looks like it clearly is. I honestly didn't recall noting the bushing material from 3-plus years back. I would think it's brass as that's what the washers are and everything would be gliding on the same material. BTW, if you use the link above you can see all the inside Hati pics at that post, and if you scroll up that page aways you'l see a similar breakdown of my RDD CF.



Now as to the 111, that knife is vintage 2018, bought as new from a Russian re-seller here on the Exchange. I dug around through old Imgur files, my phone, and my laptop looking for pics that might show a bearing pivot. I do have a post in this thread suggestive of one, but really never thought it did. I finally found a pre-cleaning, disassembly pic on my laptop of when I first cracked it, and if you compare what I take to be a concentric mill-out in the lock-side of the blade to the mill-out in in the CF side for the underlay washer and bearing cage along with the comparative sizes of the two sets of bearings it's pretty clear that there's no pivot bushing which would have to extend through to that underlay washer on the show side. My knife must be a later version of the 111.



I'm gonna kick back for now and will come back another time to my take on your other queries concerning usage, steels, and the differences in edge retention and performance relative to CRKs and Shiros "in the wild".

 

[Bacchus]

B Bacchus , you've left me with a little head-scratching, digging through my pic files, and research to do here, but no worries, it's a bit of fun to have later on what's been a most pleasant Father's Day here.

I found these pics of my Hati over at the disassembly thread. In the first, pre-cleaning pic, the light's a little funny but it kinda looks like the pivot bushing might be brass...

View attachment 2223304

...while in this post-cleaning shot, the contrast with the stainless pivot screw receiver looks like it clearly is. I honestly didn't recall noting the bushing material from 3-plus years back. I would think it's brass as that's what the washers are and everything would be gliding on the same material. BTW, if you use the link above you can see all the inside Hati pics at that post, and if you scroll up that page aways you'l see a similar breakdown of my RDD CF.

View attachment 2223310

Now as to the 111, that knife is vintage 2018, bought as new from a Russian re-seller here on the Exchange. I dug around through old Imgur files, my phone, and my laptop looking for pics that might show a bearing pivot. I do have a post in this thread suggestive of one, but really never thought it did. I finally found a pre-cleaning, disassembly pic on my laptop of when I first cracked it, and if you compare what I take to be a concentric mill-out in the lock-side of the blade to the mill-out in in the CF side for the underlay washer and bearing cage along with the comparative sizes of the two sets of bearings it's pretty clear that there's no pivot bushing which would have to extend through to that underlay washer on the show side. My knife must be a later version of the 111.

View attachment 2223355

I'm gonna kick back for now and will come back another time to my take on your other queries concerning usage, steels, and the differences in edge retention and performance relative to CRKs and Shiros "in the wild".

ChazzyP , thank you for very interesting details, really appreciate your contribution.

I felt a little bad causing you all the hassle with my question about the bushing material. But you said "no worries" and that set my mind at ease

AFAIK the primary purpose of the pivot bushing is to set minimal distance between scales in order to prevent overtightening the junction. It requires high tolerances but if the bushing is made properly and is not worn out, optimal blade action is achieved effortlessly after each re-assembly without any side to side blade play.

Anyway, the purpose of my initial question was to draw attention to the known fact that CRK steel bushing is less likely to wear out over time, not that I heard of any Hati or 111 flippers sent to workshop for bushing replacement. May be steel bushing is more appropriate for CRK knives due to relatively gritty (bead blasted) frame finish.

Last year I had an opportunity to buy 1st generation 111 (circa 2013) in mint condition, it was fun to get vintage Shiro S90V sharpening experience, though I hated choil absence.

I had to disassemble the knife for proper sharpening and after reassembly I was unpleasantly surprised by a side to side blade play. It was minor and noticeable only with the lock disengaged, but nonetheless. My attempts to fix it utterly failed, and I had to make an appointment with a local knife maker, quite experienced in fine-tuning folders.

I was given the verdict upon pivot inspection -- the bushing faces were not parallel, causing extra distance and blade play. The problem was solved by the knife maker within ~15 minutes, it took a few iterations of careful strokes on fine wetstone with subsequent measurements to remove the excess material. It was impressive to see how he made it freehand with a micrometer and a wetstone.

Nowadays it may seem unlikely for Shiro knife to have such a flaw. But it's a single hiccup while according to my knowledge the 1st generation 111 also had a major constructional issue with the clip mounting – the thread for clip screw was rather weak (the liner was too short and the clip was fastened directly to the scale, although some kind of steel spring was glued into G10 to serve as a thread) and the hidden steel ball (which was supposed to prevent clip rotation) had a tendency to knurl a track in the scale.

The following pictures are not mine, I reuploaded them from the 10 year old thread at the local forum:

The thread issue was solved in the next generation -- the steel liner was extended up to the clip mounting point:

But Shiro continued to use a steel ball for some time, I guess the additional milling made it less critical:

Look forward to hearing whatever further details you decide to share in regard to CRK vs Shiro blade performance.

 

[Bacchus]

F3 Outdoor (in my case more like indoor) has just arrived

Weirdly enough, it feels slimmer than F3 Terrus. Might be due to clip absence and thinner blade.

The grip is very comfortable, as expected.

Still not sure if I want to keep it, but definitely not going to carry it in a pouch.

 

[Jsega51]

Now that the F3 Outdoor knife is being brought back up I’ll jump in and give my thoughts, I didn’t want to interfere with the discussion regarding some of the older Shiro’s, it’s interesting to see how they used to do it! Thanks for the info and pics! I love the styling of the new F3 a lot with the G10 choices and how the inlay is shaped but there’s just a couple things that are hard to get past.

I’ve been carrying my F95NL quite a bit with plenty of time in the woods whether it’s camping, hiking, but especially hunting. It has been used for all sorts of things except field dressing a deer, I use a fixed blade for that. I can echo the sentiments of the others in that regard, I will almost always have a fixed blade with me outdoors to partner with whatever folder I have in my pocket, I don’t want two knives on my belt and these Shiro’s just don’t look right without a clip on them! I don’t want the knife laying sideways in my pockets if I’m forgoing using the belt sheath.

Another thing that I wish they would have done different is get rid of the backspacer and just have a stand-off like my F95. It makes it much easier to clean without having to break the knife down but I guess if you get it all bloody, you’ll want to do that anyway to clean the bearings. I haven’t taken the F95 apart yet, just rinsed it under soapy hot water and blew it out nice and dry. No re-lubing or anything, the knife has a great action considering this! It’s gotten plenty dirty from camp use and other jobs around the house as well.

The edge has taken some small dings here and there over time but it’s been pretty easy to maintain the edge on a Sharpmaker. I do have the diamond rods which help but the standard brown rods seem to straitened the edge back without too much work.