The Bears' Den--Shirogorov Showcase

TRfromMT said:
ChazzyP ChazzyP do you know where Shiro runs their blades for hardness?
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I was casting about on the Shirogorov website this morning and found the following list of blade steels with descriptions, composition, and hardness listed. I haven't cross-checked with the info I quoted earlier that was provided elsewhere from the Shiro rep. Here's the list pasted in below, translation compliments of the ubiquitously present Google:

Materials For the manufacture of knives used materials:

AISI 440C
AISI 440C, UNS S44004 corrosion-resistant chromium bearing steel, used from the second half of the 60's in the manufacture of blades. Good firmness of the cutting edge.
Composition: C-Carbon - 1.10%, Mn-Manganese - 1.00%, Cr-Chromium-17%, Mo-Molybdenum-1.00%, Si-Silicon - 1.00%. P-Phosphorus 0.04%, S-Sulfur 0.03%.
Hardness 58-59 HRC

ATS-34
High-carbon chromium bearing steel of Japanese production Hitachi Metals, which is widely used among the bladed steels. Very close in composition to the American 154-SM and Swedish RWL-34.
Composition: C-Carbon - 1.05%, Mn-Manganese - 0.4%, Cr-Chromium-14.0%, Mo-Molybdenum-4.0%.
Hardness 59-60 HRC

CTS 40CP
High-carbon, chrome, powder steel developed by Carpenter to provide the maximum hardness after heat treatment (about 61.5 HRC). This steel has found its application in the knife industry, thanks to the crystal lattice, its cutting properties are 40% better than comparable steels.
Composition: C-Carbon 1.2%, Si-Silicon 1.0%, Mn-Manganese 1.0%, Cr-Chrome 18.0%, Mo-Molybdenum 0.75%, P-Phosphorus - 0.04%, S-sulfur - 0.03%.
Hardness 61-62 HRC

Elmax
Alloy steel of Uddeholm, high-carbon chromium, with high wear resistance, good resistance to corrosion.
Composition: C-Carbon 1.7%, Si-Silicon 0.8%, Mn-Manganese 0.3%, Cr-Chromium 18.0%, Mo-Molybdenum 1.0%, V-Vanadium - 3.0%.
Hardness 59-60 HRC

VANAX 35
Alloy steel of Uddeholm, chromium, with high wear resistance and excellent resistance to corrosion.
Composition: C-Carbon 0.2%, N-Nitrogen 1.9%, Si-Silicon 0.3%, Mn-Manganese 0.3%, Cr-Chrome 20.0%, Mo-Molybdenum - 2.5%, V- Vanadium - 2.8%.
Hardness 59-60 HRC

VANAX 37
New alloy steel from Uddeholm, with excellent resistance to corrosion.
Composition: C-Carbon 0.36%, Si-Silicon 0.35%, Mn-Manganese 0.34%, P-Phosphorus 0.187%, S-sulfur 0.009%, Cr-Chrome 18.0 %, Ni-Nickel 0.18%, Mo-Molybdenum 1.05%, W-Tungsten 0.06%, Co-Cobalt 0.05%, V-Vanadium 3.38%, Cu-Copper 0 , 09%, Al-Aluminum 0.005%, N-Nitrogen 1.53%.
Hardness 59-60 HRC

RWL34
Swedish stainless martensitic steel, has good corrosion resistance, hardness and strength.
Composition: C-Carbon - 1.05%, Si-Silicon 0.5%, Mn-Manganese 0.5%, Cr-Chromium 14.0%, Mo-Molybdenum 4.0%, V-Vanadium - 0.20%.
Hardness 59-60 HRC

BG-42
Bearing corrosion-resistant steel Lescalloy BG42 (AMS 5749), developed by the American company Timken Latrobe. A popular material in the manufacture of knife blades of a number of author and serial models.
Composition: C-Carbon 1.15%, Mn-Manganese 0.5%, Cr-Chromium 14.50%, Si-Silicon 0.30%, Mo-Molybdenum 4.00%, V-Vanadium - 1.20%
Hardness 59-60 HRC

Cronidur 30
High-alloyed, corrosion-resistant bearing steel, developed by FAG (Germany). It is marked by high plasticity
Composition: C-Carbon 0.3%, N-Nitrogen 0.42%, Cr-Chromium 14.5%, Mo-Molybdenum 1%, V-Vanadium 0.1%.
Hardness 59-60 HRC

CPM 3V
Powder steel is developed by Crucible Materials Corporation, one of the most durable steels.
Composition: C-Carbon 0.83%, Mn-Manganese 0.39%, P-Phosphorus 0.17%, S-sulfur 0.005%, Si-Silicon 0.90%, Ni-Nickel 0.065 %, Cr-Chromium 7.49%, V-Vanadium 2.61%, W-Tungsten 0.038%, Mo-Molybdenum 1.45%, Co-Cobalt 0.045%, Cu-Copper 0.053%.
Hardness 60-61 HRC

CPM S30V
Powder steel was developed by Crucible Materials Corporation in collaboration with knife master Chris Reeve. Its chemical composition contributes to the formation and distribution of vanadium carbides, which are harder and more effective at cutting than chromium carbides. In addition, vanadium carbides contribute to obtaining a good cutting edge.
Composition: C-Carbon - 1,45%, Cr-Chromium-14,00%, Mo-Molybdenum-2%, V-Vanadium - 4,00%.
Hardness 59-60 HRC

CPM S35VN
Crucible Steel in New York has created steel CPM-S30V as steel, specially designed for knife blades. For the first time, the efforts of the knife industry were aimed at achieving this goal. Shortly after the release of the CPM-S30V, Chris Reeve (Chris Reeve Knives) began working with Dick Barber, a steelworker in Crucible Steel (now). The goal was to create an even better version of steel that had better mechanical properties and other useful qualities. The result of several years of testing and research was steel CPM-S35VN. Chemically this is the same S30V, but with the addition of Niobium.
Composition: C-Carbon 1.38%, Cr-Chromium 14.00%, Mo-Molybdenum 2%, N-Azot <1.00%, V-Vanadium 4.00%, Nb-Niobium - <1.00%.
Hardness 59-60 HRC

CPM S90V
Powder steel was previously CPM 420V, a trademark of the Crucible Materials Corporation. Commercial name S90V. A promising material used to make blades with high wear resistance.
Composition: C-Carbon is 2.3%, Mn-Manganese is 0.40%, Cr-Chromium is 14.0%, V is Vanadium is 5.50%, Mo-Molybdenum is 1%.
Hardness 58-59 HRC

M390
Martensitic Chromium Corrosion Resistant Steel produced by Böhler Bleche GmbH & Co. KG KG (Austria). Powder steel, a promising material in the manufacture of corrosion-resistant blades with increased wear resistance.
Composition: C-Carbon 1.90%, Mn-Manganese 0.30% Si-Silicon 0.60% Cr-Chrome 20.00% Mo-Molybdenum 1.00% W-Tungsten 0.60%, V-Vanadium - 4.00%.
Hardness 60-62 HRC

ZDI-V
AISI420MOV-VANADIS10
Composition: C-Carbon-2.9%, Cr-Chromium 8.0%, Mo-Molybdenum 1.5%, V-Vanadium 9.8%, Si-Silicon-0.5%, Mn-Manganese 0.30%
Hardness - 63-65 HRC

ZDP-189
Powder steel developed in 1996 in Hitachi Metals Japan by technology of amorphous metal alloys high-carbon steel.
Composition: C-Carbon - 3%, Cr-Chromium-20.0%, Si-Silicon - 0.40%, Mo-Molybdenum - 1%, V-Vanadium - 3.00%.
Hardness 64-65 HRC
 
This is good info, ChazzyP ChazzyP . Thanks. I spent some time putting an edge on the new F95 in M390 last night. It was maybe ever so slightly more difficult than my turtle, but it started out worse off. It was not nearly shaving sharp when received, would only drag through paper. Now it will simply slice through accordian-folded phone book paper with ease, and is certainly shaving sharp.

I am by no means good at sharpening. I rely only on what I can achieve with my sharpmaker through the extra fine rods, no matter what the steel. Phone book paper slicing and shaving sharp is absolutely good enough for me. I'm also quite happy that I can get my knives sharp. Maybe not truly sharp by some guy's standards, but I'm perfectly satisfied!
 
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I'm not the greatest sharpener either, TRfromMT TRfromMT , but my skills do seem to improve as I go. Also, once I get an edge to where I like it, it's much easier and quicker to maintain. I'm glad I added the EdgePro and get better with that as I go, but I really like the ease of the SharpMaker and in many ways prefer it. Within its limits, I'm more accomplished with the SM and set my knives up on the EP so they can be maintained on the SM.

As to your new beauty, if I read your post correctly your knife has no internal milling. An earlier post of yours makes some reference to CD, but if you compare your knife to the one shown in @Mtneer 's post #492 here you can see the differences between yours and his. I don't mean to diminish your knife in any way, as it's really fine and I'm quite jealous, but it appears to be a serial production knife with the added feature of the CF inlays. I've not seen one like it before and I'm guessing it must have been part of a limited run.

Older SRBS F95s are great knives--snappy flippers with drop-shut action and easy to maintain. Custom Division knives are really excellent with complex milling, roller-bearings, and blade features not generally found in serial production knives, but they're rarer, not easy to obtain, and way more expensive. As much as I love my Shiros, I don't know that I'm prepared to jump to that next price bracket. I've managed to stay short of 4 figures with all of mine and in the $500-750 range with all but two.

As I wrote earlier, any more details, specs, and pics of your CF 95 are much appreciated. That's a great pick-up, brother. :)

BTW: Those hardness values above do cross-check with those in my earlier post.
 
ChazzyP ChazzyP - correct - no internal milling. I understand and agree this is a serial production knife, which is what I understood from discussions with the seller. It has single row bearings, and I am not sure I can tell a difference with my MRBS turtle. The fit of the CF on these handles is very tight, clean and uniform.

I do like the M390. While not the most premium/super steel it's killer for my uses.
 
OT:

Speaking of using the Sharpmaker system mostly for maintenance with the occasional tweaks and "improvements" over factory edge:

Am I among the very few who likes the rods that the system comes with plus the extras you can buy separately (I have acquired both CBN and UF), but prefer to use the rods in a free hand sorta way over using the roads lodged in their intended base? I admit that I'm also not very good with sharpening but using the Sharpie marker trick, I feel that I am better at hitting the edge better when I free hand it rather than using the base and altering the edge contact area with the rods in that manner.

Lastly, do you folks really raise a burr even using the M / F / UF rods? I must admit that I don't even know what a burr is supposed to look or feel like using those much finer grits and the only way I have ever managed to raise a detectable burr (not on my Shrios) have been when I use x-coarse DMT diamond surfaces!
 
JimMD said:
Recently they had the HatiOn Lite priced at $600. I'd guess that the NeOn would cost less than the HatiOn, or at least not any more.
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Actually, the HatiOn is right in between the Lite and the Ultra-Lite.
Neon Ultra-Lite: $550.00
HatiOn Lite: $600.00
Neon Lite: $650.00
Neon (non-serial) >$3000.00!
 
CPP said:
Actually, the HatiOn is right in between the Lite and the Ultra-Lite.
Neon Ultra-Lite: $550.00
HatiOn Lite: $600.00
Neon Lite: $650.00
Neon (non-serial) >$3000.00!
Click to expand...

I saw the HatiOn Lite (red CF / Ti) for 600 which was very tempting in lieu of the fact that they were going for almost $100+ more here on the Exchange (maybe different models?), but I still resisted the temptation because of the hybrid scales arrangement not being my cuppa tea.

I've already contacted one of our famous (past) Den dwellers and infamous NeOn hoarder to see if he'd like to part with one :p
 
Full Ti knives are generally more expensive than those with one CF, G10, or other composite slab or overlays. Hinderers come to mind immediately when considering this. In the current run of serial production knives, F95Rs and T's are $1095 while HatiRs and F3Rs run $895 from the US authorized dealer.
 
Ugh, I want a F95 so bad. Alas the spousel unit would kill me. Oh well, keep posting and I will live thru you guys.
 
ChazzyP said:
Full Ti knives are generally more expensive than those with one CF, G10, or other composite slab or overlays. Hinderers come to mind immediately when considering this. In the current run of serial production knives, F95Rs and T's are $1095 while HatiRs and F3Rs run $895 from the US authorized dealer.
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You're probably right. Maybe I expected an increased cost because I prefer the look and reduced weight of the carbon fiber. With the few knives I've looked to buy where there was a choice for a carbon fiber show scale, it was more expensive than the titanium scale, like Koenig's knives.
 
JimMD said:
You're probably right. Maybe I expected an increased cost because I prefer the look and reduced weight of the carbon fiber. With the few knives I've looked to buy where there was a choice for a carbon fiber show scale, it was more expensive than the titanium scale, like Koenig's knives.
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Probably knives that are exclusives, like the KnifeArt CRKS, or limited runs are more, but it seems like Ti slabs and their milling are just more $ for stock knives.

I agree about the CF being sweeter for me too. Makes the HatiOn a good deal. :)
 
ChazzyP said:
Probably knives that are exclusives, like the KnifeArt CRKS, or limited runs are more, but it seems like Ti slabs and their milling are just more $ for stock knives.

I agree about the CF being sweeter for me too. Makes the HatiOn a good deal. :)
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Yep, maybe an entry level Shiro, but very nice:
CQt68FW.jpg
 
M
ChazzyP said:
Nice new NeOn, @Jesse Allen , and welcome to the Bears' Den. Nice photo montage, too.

There has been some discussion in this forum (and in others) regarding lock bar movement on Shiros. Back at Page 44 there was some back and forth between TRfromMT TRfromMT and myself with input from @Ajack60 about this. TR and I agree that lock bar movement is a deliberate design by Shiro to prevent inadvertent disengagement under hard use in knives with somewhat early lockup. Shiro's blade tang interface angle is less than the approximately 7 degrees used by most of the industry. The steeper that angle, the greater the tendency toward slippage. A shallow angle is more secure, but will yield more movement in the locking direction under pressure.

The thinking here is that Shiro's design allows one to push the lock bar in further, providing ultra-positive lock up, consequently yielding a degree of lock stick. I've noted that my F95s, Hati, and NeOn all do this, though none require a second hand or tool to overcome said lock stick. You'll note that 95s and Hati's have a pronounced shoulder on the lock bar and that the NeOn has a very slight one as well. I take these shoulders to be positive over-travel stops to prevent locking the knives up to the point that they'd be way too difficult to disengage.

Personally, I find that no matter how hard I grip my knives, I can't push the lock bar over without deliberately doing so with my thumb or using my fingertip in a pinch grip. I have kinda weird hands, though--made thick and arthritic from almost 50 years in the carpentry trade, my forefinger doesn't really close against the lock bar in a saber or hammer grip.
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My HatiOn has lock stick that sounds similar to what you describe. It increases with greater pressure on the lockbar, as with a firm saber grip for me. It's easy to overcome but still more lock stick than any knife I own.
 
Re: Lock Stick.

On my new-to-me F95 with CF inlays, the lock geometry and steel insert appear identical to my F95T. Also, the two will slide completely engaged with a little pressure from my thumb or from a firm grip.

Here is the lock as engaged just after opening:
20180926_144207.jpg

Here is the lock after just a bit of pressure:
20180926_144218.jpg

What is interesting is that I cannot feel any stick on the older F95 - it simply disengages smoothly, no click or stick. I can feel just a bit of stick with my newer F95T. I can only assume this is because the F95 is a little more broken in and the 95T will need a little more time to get there.

I consider both knives perfectly acceptable even for higher end brands. I personally will tolerate just a bit of stick. I also personally have no tolerance for off center blades that cannot be adjusted back to center, nor any blade play/wiggle. That's a hard no, for me. A little stick is fine. That's just me.
 
JimMD said:
M

My HatiOn has lock stick that sounds similar to what you describe. It increases with greater pressure on the lockbar, as with a firm saber grip for me. It's easy to overcome but still more lock stick than any knife I own.
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This does seem to a complaint about Shiro lock geometry somewhat generally, but more specific to NeOns. Again, it's a product of the shallower-than-usual lock-ramp angle of Shiros.

Having rather thick hands and being right-handed, no matter how hard I hold my knives in saber- or hammer-grip I never apply any pressure to the lock-bar as the pressure on the handle is exerted largely top to bottom. In a pinch-grip, I can place my index finger tip on the lock-bar or slide it up a little to stay off. What I'm getting at is that I'll only ever push the locker over if I deliberately choose to do so. I can see, though, how it could be a problem for left-handed users.
 
I agree with your assessment, TRfromMT TRfromMT . Even pushed over, my lock-bars on broken-in knives are not unconscionably sticky and that only happens if I make the effort to do so.
 
Yikes! I disassembled both of My F95s. Started with the C.F. inlaid one with single row bearings. That was nerve wracking! Those suckers are tiny.

In the end it went fine. It was pretty gunky and needed cleaning. Now all cleaned up, adjusted perfectly and ready to go.

After that, the MRB turtle wasn't so bad.

Even went to the trouble to clock the screws... (yah, I'm that guy).

20180927_053606~01.jpg
 
You guys will think that I'm crazy, which will not get any protest from me, because I just am certifiably nutz!

There's a HatiOn Lite coming down my way, despite my past claims to the contrary that I was all done with hybrid handle scales :rolleyes: What won me over was because my forum friend was not prepared to let go any of his NeOns go, plus the HatiOn has that attractive white CF side and Vanax 37 which i really love. Ah well, I can now see a 4th Shiro (a NeOn) in my future :confused:

The 95T is currently on its way to Josh @razor-edge-knives because there was this funkiness going on in the tip area which annoyed the sh*t outta me because of stupid OCD for perfection! I don't know if it was a burr or folded edge which was not detected during the final QC, but now it matter not. In the process of improving it, I really made it worse (I think) so I will juts let Josh do his magic with his W.E wizardry and hopefully send me back the 95T with a much better than factory working edge and sharp pointy tip that I can then maintain more easily on my Sharpmaker. Man I really such at trying to reprofile M390 and that was my initial trepidation for not having that combo atop my wish list.

Henceforth the (drunken) rationale behind the HatiOn lite :)

What the heck does HatiOn or NeOn even mean? Someone please edumacate me!
 
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