From the time he sent the email letting me know something was wrong to the time he shipped out the knife to Busse was 3 hours 12 mins. That's not even counting the time he took to call and talk to the company. He had my phone number which he chose not to use and up to that point, the last words he said to me was that he was going to contact Busse and keep me updated, so I was waiting to hear from him....
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The blade was defective when it came - who's responsible to make it right?
- Thread starter Venice Will
- Start date
From the time he sent the email letting me know something was wrong to the time he shipped out the knife to Busse was 3 hours 12 mins. That's not even counting the time he took to call and talk to the company. He had my phone number which he chose not to use and up to that point, the last words he said to me was that he was going to contact Busse and keep me updated, so I was waiting to hear from him....
As much as I don't want to defend any of Liu Kang's actions now or in the past, you have to admit this was a hasty situation that developed way to fast, mostly right out in public. I mean, it appears the knife was already bound for Busse before either side had time to fully sort it out. I do understand the urgency when dealing with such an expensive piece but as it turns out, it's probably headed to the right place first anyhow. Liu may not be the best dealer in the world but in the end I think most buyers are not treated unfairly.
Personally, if I had bought a hard to find Busse knife from Liu and it needed repair, I'd rather send it directly to Busse anyways. I might request he pay for shipping though.
Personally, if I had bought a hard to find Busse knife from Liu and it needed repair, I'd rather send it directly to Busse anyways. I might request he pay for shipping though.
on_the_edge
Gold Member
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I know what you are saying about the times, but it never should have gotten that far. Again, rather than the exchange you had above, why couldn't you have said something like:
"Wow, Will, I'm sorry. I had no idea that there was anything wrong with the blade. Listen, I want to make you a happy and returning customer, so tell me what it will take to make this right in your eyes. I can refund your $ in full plus pay for you to ship it back to me. I can send you a different knife if I have something else you'd like. I can pay for you to send the knife to Busse (so that you get it back as quickly as possible), or if you'd prefer, I'd be happy to send it to Busse myself. You tell me. I'm sure there are some options that I have not even thought of. Let's work together to get this straightened out to your satisfaction asap. Again, my apologies."
Maybe you were not trying to blow Will off, but that is how it came across. Would it really have been so hard to take that extra little step and make him feel like you wanted to be a part of the solution?
Ok, here's my question (and keep in mind, I'm not dog piling you, I've got a legit question as someone who frequently buys knives on this forum): Do you inspect the knives you sell before you send them out? I might be reaching, but I don't get the impression you're a "large scale" retailer, so excellent customer service is going to be your bread and butter. I'll say, and I don't know about all this "past history" stuff, your communication seems to be really good in this case. Taking the extra step and giving the knife a quick look over before sending it out might be a way to side-step this kind of thing in the future.
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I gotta say, aside from having some nice knives, the more I hear about Busse's customer service, they seem like one hell of a company.
Sorry if I'm de-railing.
Sorry if I'm de-railing.
calemerson
Gold Member
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- Jun 23, 2007
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dont buy, sell or trade with them. Choice is a great thing! Gives us the option to not deal with someone if we do not care for their method of operation, attitude, past comments, cracks in our post, etc, etc. Certain folks I will go out of my way to deal with, they just make me feel good! Others I run from like the black death!
As long as it is financially beneficial ($$$$) for certain sellers they will continue to sell, trade and buy on these forums. We are the ones that continue to allow them to make profits from us on the forums (meaning they along with the things we dont like about them) will stay and continue to sell, buy and trade knives with us.
I dont buy, sell, or trade knives to make a profit! I do it because I am a knife collector, trader and have been for 42 years. Its different when you are trying to make a financial profit on every sale, buy, or trade you make. Its way to much like work!
Calemerson
I apologize to anyone I have made mad with this post.
As long as it is financially beneficial ($$$$) for certain sellers they will continue to sell, trade and buy on these forums. We are the ones that continue to allow them to make profits from us on the forums (meaning they along with the things we dont like about them) will stay and continue to sell, buy and trade knives with us.
I dont buy, sell, or trade knives to make a profit! I do it because I am a knife collector, trader and have been for 42 years. Its different when you are trying to make a financial profit on every sale, buy, or trade you make. Its way to much like work!
Calemerson
I apologize to anyone I have made mad with this post.
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I think I should apologize to the seller for forming such a negative opinion so fast on such little information given. I think many did the same. I don't know what the seller has done on other situations that were so negative. I became a part of the forum based an a simple question. "Who's responsible to make it right". Under the circumstances the seller has to be responsible, that is just universally right. It is easy now for us to advise the seller on what he should have said. The fact is the seller was trying to communicate with the buyer. There was not a lot of time to resolve the issue. According to the timeline which both parties have not argues, this whole process to less than 4 hours for return. That is not a lot of time at all for any seller to make someone happy. I believe that the seller intended to make the buyer happy but came across the wrong way.
I hope the buyer can enjoy the knife he purchased and that there are no longer delays in getting him his knife. To the seller, I am sorry to base a negative opinion of you based on this post. I would wish that this post teach us all a lesson to communicate more clearly and do our research before investing our time and money.
I hope the buyer can enjoy the knife he purchased and that there are no longer delays in getting him his knife. To the seller, I am sorry to base a negative opinion of you based on this post. I would wish that this post teach us all a lesson to communicate more clearly and do our research before investing our time and money.
braillediver
Gold Member
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This is how I see it:
You're a "Reseller" and the "I just work here" attitude doesn't cut it.
As a "Reseller" you do have some responsibility for what you sell.
That would include inspecting everything you receive to verify it is up to snuff and as the "primary" buyer you have the responsibility of addressing any warranty issues first before reselling the item.
Your Tag says Dealer but you claim to buy and sell the knives just like you.
Not really- you actively profit from the transactions as a dealer and the value you add to the transaction is how you earn your profit.
You cant run a business as a Dealer but claim to be a Hobbyists like us. In all honesty I think the different titles have different expectations but similar responsibilities.
I'm glad that this person has "seen the light", but I would still like to know who the Seller is... If for no other reason but to avoid doing any sort of business with him, since he had to be confronted with the possibility of being exposed here to "see it".
Although it's a good thing that the GBU forum works well to get most folks to do the right thing, it is a darn shame that some people are only interested in the sale and not the pride in the satisfaction of a good deal for both parties...even when a little more effort is needed from time to time to make it so.
I've been in a similar situation, but caught the fairly minor but noticeable problem before shipping. I called the manufacturer to get options and then laid out 2 solutions for my Buyer who resides in Europe. Along with my apologies for not noticing before listing the knife, I gave him the choice of a full refund with no hard feelings or to wait a bit for the knife while it goes back for a fix and then be shipped directly from them to him with any extra shipping costs on me...He chose the latter, and was extremely happy when he received it in perfect order. Personally, I felt really good when he sent me pix of the knife and thanked me for the extra effort. To me, there really was no "extra effort"...it was just doing the right thing. If you want to make folks happy, all you have to do is care. :thumbup:
+1
A) You need to inspect knives before you sell.
B) You need to bend over backward to make the buyer happy.
I learned A the hard way. I once sold a Busse Heavy Duty to a fellow in Germany. Tossed up a listing sans pics and it sold PDQ. Since the buyer was going to have to wait a while, I told him I'd get him some pics, and while taking them, I noticed a tiny chipped piece in the coating. I did the same as Jaxx and offered the buyer a full refund or a discounted price. He took the discount, and as a result, we both felt better about the transaction.
Edited to add:
Dan, I concede that the set of events in this case moved quickly, perhaps too quickly to make the deal right before it was too late. But there have been other complaints against you, even in this thread (see post #13). Over the past months, I've had one person tell me you bought a knife and then asked that the sale price be removed, ostensibly so no one could see your profit margin. Many have suspected you regularly use Busse forum posts to drive up interest in your sales. Others have told me about lowball offers you've made on their knives. Charging a fee to swap a knife sounds like a "restocking fee" (which I abhor). You yourself have labeled your practices a business, though you downplay the dealer moniker below your username. And few of us have seen you use the knives you sell, yet you recommend them so highly. These scenarios combined tend to rub the true hobbyists the wrong way.
All of this behavior reeks of profit over community, and I would much rather see it the other way around. There's room to be a "dealer" and still be a good denizen of Bladeforums. YMMV.
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My understanding is that, when his dealer status was under debate, Liu Kang struck a deal with Spark (perhaps at Jerry's request?) because of the traffic in the Busse For Sale forum. There was a post about it somewhere in Service and Support, I believe. Ah... found it.
In that thread, I voiced the same concerns posted above. Jerry himself posted the following:
For the record, once again, we only have two dealers. One (ThatMguy) is restricted to a couple of local gun shows only, and the other (Idaho Skunk) runs our company store and is restricted from selling anything other than his personal knives on Bladeforums. We currently only have these two set up as Busse dealers. :thumbup:
Liu Kang pays the same amount as everyone else and then marks up from there. The list of folks who buy our knives at the regular price and then resell them for a profit down the road is endless.
Hope this helps,
Jerry
Jerry's last point is certainly true, but these "folks" don't typically engage in so many blatant strategies that elevate profit above community.
Just a little history.
Liu Kang in March of 2010 in response to the question "Are you a dealer?"
And here's Liu Kang five months later...
So in that interim, Liu Kang became a dealer with a business? Well, perhaps. But if one goes back about ten months, it appears he was already working angles to make his "business" more profitable. This post was in response to the question "Why delete the sold price in the exchange?" Seemingly (to myself and at least one more person), LK was asking that prices be removed on knives that he bought so that mark-up would be unclear. I understand that some collectors are sensitive about the value of their collections being public knowledge. However, I just don't think that's really the case here. That's my opinion. Do with it what you will.
In Dan's defense, I will say that a lot of folks in the Busse forum like him and say he's an amicable guy in person. Many of his posts in that forum are positive and community oriented. It's just that, when you combine all of the above, people get suspicious about his actions and motives, perhaps overly suspicious. What could Dan do to change things? I'm not even sure. Post a user review once in a while maybe. Stop viewing the Busse subforum as a mining site for potential sales. Stop asking that sale prices be removed. Will he? Don't know. Such actions could change a lot of people's minds about him, but I get the notion that Dan cares little about said impressions. That's my last 2 cents here.
.
Liu Kang in March of 2010 in response to the question "Are you a dealer?"
Link (thread locked): http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=722649
And here's Liu Kang five months later...
Link (thread locked): http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8497403
So in that interim, Liu Kang became a dealer with a business? Well, perhaps. But if one goes back about ten months, it appears he was already working angles to make his "business" more profitable. This post was in response to the question "Why delete the sold price in the exchange?" Seemingly (to myself and at least one more person), LK was asking that prices be removed on knives that he bought so that mark-up would be unclear. I understand that some collectors are sensitive about the value of their collections being public knowledge. However, I just don't think that's really the case here. That's my opinion. Do with it what you will.
In Dan's defense, I will say that a lot of folks in the Busse forum like him and say he's an amicable guy in person. Many of his posts in that forum are positive and community oriented. It's just that, when you combine all of the above, people get suspicious about his actions and motives, perhaps overly suspicious. What could Dan do to change things? I'm not even sure. Post a user review once in a while maybe. Stop viewing the Busse subforum as a mining site for potential sales. Stop asking that sale prices be removed. Will he? Don't know. Such actions could change a lot of people's minds about him, but I get the notion that Dan cares little about said impressions. That's my last 2 cents here.
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I feel the same.
From the emails posted it sounds like there was an issue with the edge, if so that's a simple sharpen / fix. The OP made it sound like the blade was obviously sold in damaged condition.
Then we get emails saying "I'll contact Busse for warranty work" and "I'll keep you in the loop" which to me doesn't say "I'm going to GB&U and present my half first."
Three hours from complaint to in the mail is much to quick. I do agree that a refund offer should have been included in the first email, however there didn't seem to be loads of back and forth communication at that point. From Dan's perspective it's reasonable to assume that the buyer had chosen to contact Busse first and then decide on the issue.
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I don't have a dog in this fight, but here's my opinion anyway...
I never liked Liu Kang. From his dishonesty about being a "dealer" (per BFC's definitions as laid out by Spark) to his used-car-salesman practices. I don't think he has anything positive to add to this community.
However, it's not my community, it's Spark's. We don't decide what's considered "acceptable", or who's allowed to stay or gets the boot. Spark does.
That said, everybody here does have the right to buy from, and sell to, whomever they want, and refuse whomever they don't. If somebody with unscrupulous business practices wanted to buy a knife I was selling (for example, a Busse that I know he'll simply flip for an inflated price) I have every right to refuse to sell to him. Conversely, I can choose to buy from someone other than him.
As for being "bad for the community", if "the community" decides that what he's doing is "bad", then it's within their power to prevent him by doing the above. If everybody refuses to sell to him, and refuses to buy from him, then he'll be a businessman with no business. I've been saying this about Will Ferrell/Vince Vaughn/Ben Stiller movies for years (stop paying to see crappy movies, and they'll stop making them). It's all up to the community.
I'm not trying to instigate a boycott here, I'm just saying that people are dogpiling on a knife (re)seller for "harming the community", yet it's "the community" that seems, in general, perfectly willing to allow him to continue doing what he's doing.
And we're all guilty of stuff like that. Do I think Wal*Mart is an evil megacorperation? Yes. Do I still shop there because their prices are cheap? Damn straight.
All I'm saying is that in this case "the community", if they want to, can do something about it.
I never liked Liu Kang. From his dishonesty about being a "dealer" (per BFC's definitions as laid out by Spark) to his used-car-salesman practices. I don't think he has anything positive to add to this community.
However, it's not my community, it's Spark's. We don't decide what's considered "acceptable", or who's allowed to stay or gets the boot. Spark does.
That said, everybody here does have the right to buy from, and sell to, whomever they want, and refuse whomever they don't. If somebody with unscrupulous business practices wanted to buy a knife I was selling (for example, a Busse that I know he'll simply flip for an inflated price) I have every right to refuse to sell to him. Conversely, I can choose to buy from someone other than him.
As for being "bad for the community", if "the community" decides that what he's doing is "bad", then it's within their power to prevent him by doing the above. If everybody refuses to sell to him, and refuses to buy from him, then he'll be a businessman with no business. I've been saying this about Will Ferrell/Vince Vaughn/Ben Stiller movies for years (stop paying to see crappy movies, and they'll stop making them). It's all up to the community.
I'm not trying to instigate a boycott here, I'm just saying that people are dogpiling on a knife (re)seller for "harming the community", yet it's "the community" that seems, in general, perfectly willing to allow him to continue doing what he's doing.
And we're all guilty of stuff like that. Do I think Wal*Mart is an evil megacorperation? Yes. Do I still shop there because their prices are cheap? Damn straight.
All I'm saying is that in this case "the community", if they want to, can do something about it.
on_the_edge
Gold Member
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- Jan 31, 2006
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- 11,820
.....wrong sub forum...
Still don't get it. Can't understand the special deal Kang got. It doesn't matter if he's not an official Busse Dealer or if he get's a discount. By blade forums rules he is a dealer... perhaps a bad one since he's choosen a product that he can't buy at cost... but a dealer none the less. He shouldn't be allowed to sell as an individual just because he doesn't get dealer pricing from Jerry. That's simply just bad business on Kang's part... not the fault of BF or real individuals looking to trade and sell their personal gear. IMHO you can't have 30 NMFBMs and call them your own individual for sale items. That's inventory. But in the end it's Spark's forum so it's his choice.
Personally I have never, and will never deal with Kang. IMHO he kinda dirties up the spirit of the Busse Crowd, hoarding knives already in limited supply to line his own pockets under the guise of "Helping People". Seems like a lot of bickering goes on between the few power buyers/sellers as to who gets what since profit margins are concerned.