The first sharpening

zyhano said:
cool thread, some more pics in the morning then?
do you go over the dmt stones at an angle? the scratch pattern after the coarse stone says you do..
if so, why wouldn't you go over the stone with the edge perpendicular to the length of the stone? is there any advantage?
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I don't know if there is any scientific evidence to back this up, but it is my theory that the angle of the scratch patterns on the edge can actually impact how the blade cuts or slices on a very microscopic level. I always sharpen so that the angle of the scratch patters work with my knife as I do pull cuts, which is the most common type of cutting I do with the knife.

I doubt it really matters much, but it seems to make sense to me :D
 
Knifenut1013, I'd love to learn more about the mechanics of your hands, arms, and the rest of your body when sharpening. Is the stone vertical or horizontal in front of you? I have been an athlete my whole life, and in every sport I've been in they stress the importance of getting your whole body involved with the motions you are trying to master. I apply this to my sharpening, and I try to make sure my legs, waist, shoulders, arms, and hands are all involved and in sync consistently. Do you do this as well?

I recently for the first time was able to achieve hair whittling sharpness. Now I am an addict and I want to get to the next level. I only use a 1000 grit and an 8000 grit Japanese waterstone, with a leather strop loaded with green sharpening compound. I am looking into Diamond Pastes to further refine and polish my edges, and some day I may replace my water stones with DMT, but I think I can learn equally as much from you about technique as I can about the tools you use...

Right now, I don't know much about diamond pastes or how to use them, but it sounds like it is similar to using my strop with the green compound.
 
Yes, you can make a knife cut directionally by the way you sharpen it.

Diamonds are excellent for all around sharpening and if you sharpen a lot of very hard steels but don't give up on the water stones yet ;)

There is a "flow" when sharpening and a mental state you must be in to "feel" the edge when you sharpen. The method of pressure points/angle control explained on page 3 is most important in the technique, beyond that my body movements are whatever feels right for the moment. One thing is to keep your wrist locked and move your shoulder and elbow joints. Or you can sway your body while having your arm joints locked.

I like to have the stone at a 45 degree angle in front of me as it feels best. I know this may sound odd but try sharpening with your eyes closed, shutting down one sense heightens the others ;)
 
knifenut1013 said:
Yes, you can make a knife cut directionally by the way you sharpen it.

Diamonds are excellent for all around sharpening and if you sharpen a lot of very hard steels but don't give up on the water stones yet ;)

There is a "flow" when sharpening and a mental state you must be in to "feel" the edge when you sharpen. The method of pressure points/angle control explained on page 3 is most important in the technique, beyond that my body movements are whatever feels right for the moment. One thing is to keep your wrist locked and move your shoulder and elbow joints. Or you can sway your body while having your arm joints locked.

I like to have the stone at a 45 degree angle in front of me as it feels best. I know this may sound odd but try sharpening with your eyes closed, shutting down one sense heightens the others ;)
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I also have the stone at a 45 degree angle when sharpening... It's good to know that a master follows the same methods. :p

Do you think my selection of a 1000 grit and an 8000 grit waterstone and a leather strop is adequate to achieve hair whittling, TP slicing, HHT edges? I am going to be ordering some Diamond Paste for my strops soon... what would you recommend? I have a 3V knife by Fehrman, two 1095 knives from ESEE, and a custom neck knife by Murray Carter with a high Rockwell hardness made with "white steel". My Murray Carter is the knife that I feel can achieve the most acute edges.
 
jgon said:
I also have the stone at a 45 degree angle when sharpening... It's good to know that a master follows the same methods. :p
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You guys are funny. I agree that scratch patterns make a difference. Heel to toe pattern push cuts better for me than toe to heel which bites better in more traditional cutting tasks.

I hope Vasselli doesn't read your remark about Knifenut being the master sharpener here, he'll stroke out for sure. :D
 
First of all, I just learned this from a reputable source, that scratch patterns 90* to the edge will yield the sharpest blade scientically. It really depends on what your final grit is, as to how much the micro serrations will have an effect. I'm guessing that there is a point at which one could not tell any difference, and I'm guessing, just because we people aren't that sensitive, that the cutoff point is pretty low grit. I frequently take my edges to a 10k finish, and I've seen that scratch pattern magnified 800x, and boy oh boy, you are talking about some micro serrations that you can barely see.

I have no doubt that "micro-serration grain" may be a variable in the equation, but to what extent or to what grit or to what you are cutting, I reckon we don't need to lay awake nights trying to figure it in.

The first time I ever even thought or heard about it was just recently. Seeing how many knives I've sharpened in the last 40 years and never noticed it tells me that at my normal level of refinement it's a non-issue.

I'd love to see some scientific data on it. I seriously doubt it's humanly possible to perceive any difference at all past 2kJ.

It doesn't matter how the stone sits on the bench, it only matters what direction the edge passes over it.
 
jgon, I would first suggest and a stone around the 4k mark to help better refine your scratch pattern and edge roughness. Have you seen my water stone thread? a Kitayama 8k could change your mind about needing a strop ;)

Personally I'm trying to get to the point where stropping is a very little small step in the process. I have gone through so much compound I could have paided for a set of water stones twice over.

A while back I had the chance to speak with Dave martel, it was weird because it was like talking to myself as we both view things in a similar light. I would suggest going to JKS and reading what he says about the different stones and the ones he likes best. I know its helping me in my choices.

Thanks for the master comment but I still have much to learn before I can be considered that.

GG, for me directional cutting becomes a non issue past 8k but your right most would not be able to tell after 2k. In polishing I often change direction, this completely eliminates directional effect and prodces a "pure" cutting edge.
 
knifenut1013 said:
jgon, I would first suggest and a stone around the 4k mark to help better refine your scratch pattern and edge roughness. Have you seen my water stone thread? a Kitayama 8k could change your mind about needing a strop ;)

Personally I'm trying to get to the point where stropping is a very little small step in the process. I have gone through so much compound I could have paided for a set of water stones twice over.

A while back I had the chance to speak with Dave martel, it was weird because it was like talking to myself as we both view things in a similar light. I would suggest going to JKS and reading what he says about the different stones and the ones he likes best. I know its helping me in my choices.

Thanks for the master comment but I still have much to learn before I can be considered that.

GG, for me directional cutting becomes a non issue past 8k but your right most would not be able to tell after 2k. In polishing I often change direction, this completely eliminates directional effect and prodces a "pure" cutting edge.
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What is JKS? You think a 4000 grit stone in addition to my 1000 and 8000 would be enough to get me to that next step? I will look into your waterstone thread to learn more about this kitayama stone.

I originally learned how to sharpen from Murray Carter and he get's some of the sharpest freehand edges using only waterstones and no strop. His theory is that strops will work for the less skilled of hand, but if you really work on your technique, he claims that the sharpest edges are obtained by using stones only, because the rigid sharpening medium produces the most exact, pure edges, if you can refine your skills at freehand sharpening. I get his point, but I've struggled to get there, so my technique still needs some work. Because my technique is imperfect, strops have seemed to help, because they are more forgiving when my angles and pressure waver a bit while sharpening.

I will get there...
 
Japaneseknifesharpening.com JKS ;)

I've been heading down the water stone path lately mainly because of the results murray gets but still have a hard time grasping the face shave from a 6k. He does it but I can't help but to think a 6k edge would rip my face off, plus he seems to be the only one with those results. It seems that if it was such a good way you would see it preferred by razor sharpeners but that not the case. I can say though that with my Kitayama I feel no need to strop when done and though not perfect mirror the edges feel sharper than ever. Not the sharpest I've ever had but they are in a weird sort of way.

Makes me want to send a knife to him to see what type of edge it is.

I am actually trying to move away from stropping more and just finish with stones. The results so far are great but we'll see what the future holds.

I feel like I'm in a sharpening mid-life crisis.
 
knifenut1013 said:
Japaneseknifesharpening.com JKS ;)

I've been heading down the water stone path lately mainly because of the results murray gets but still have a hard time grasping the face shave from a 6k. He does it but I can't help but to think a 6k edge would rip my face off, plus he seems to be the only one with those results. It seems that if it was such a good way you would see it preferred by razor sharpeners but that not the case. I can say though that with my Kitayama I feel no need to strop when done and though not perfect mirror the edges feel sharper than ever. Not the sharpest I've ever had but they are in a weird sort of way.

Makes me want to send a knife to him to see what type of edge it is.

I am actually trying to move away from stropping more and just finish with stones. The results so far are great but we'll see what the future holds.

I feel like I'm in a sharpening mid-life crisis.
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HAHAHAHA a sharpening mid-life crisis you say? Well let me assure you that your edges are on par with the best I've seen, and your relentless pursuit of the perfect edge is a passion I share. It is troubling to have obsessions such as these at times, because perfection is often difficult to define, and there always seems to be a way to get an edge just a little bit sharper...

I actually have had a dialogue with Murray off and on since I purchased my Neck Knife from him a few years ago. He has been a huge resource for me in the knife world. I actually emailed him the thread where Ankerson is slicing TP cleanly with no resistance, and he told me that he will put up a video of him doing the same thing. I am excited to see that.

He is selling a couple of rough looking, crazy expensive natural waterstones on his website... I'm not sure what is so special about them, but they look hideous and amazing at the same time.

His secret for his shaving is that he does a very acute angle on the knives he shaves with, more acute than is practical for what the knife was intended to be used for. I don't have the control yet to achieve this, but I am working on it. You can actually see how ridiculously acute the angle is in some of his sharpening videos. I have the dual set, feel free to PM if you are interested in viewing them. It is more thorough than anything available on his youtube channel.

The edge that came on my Murray Carter knife blew my mind. It cut so effortlessly and shaved so cleanly... I did not think that was possible in a knife until I used a knife made and sharpened by him. It was more obtuse of an angle than the edges he uses for his shaving demonstrations, but still sharp as hell.

I'm going to go sharpen a knife now and see if any of the discussions I've had today have taught me anything. It sounds like with the tools I have, I should be fairly well set if I can get my technique down, but I'm still intrigued by this katiyama stone...
 
Its a never ending learning process that's for sure.

I wish I had the funds for all natural stones but it would probably cost me more than I make in a year. They produce a sweet looking finish though and have a feel that's second to none. I think it would be the ultimate in sharpening but I can't put that kind of money into it, and talk about confusing..... naturals will make your head spin trying to figure them out.

The Kitayama is just a must have IMO, it produces a edge that's crazy sharp and nicely polished.
 
knifenut1013 said:
Japaneseknifesharpening.com JKS ;)

I've been heading down the water stone path lately mainly because of the results murray gets but still have a hard time grasping the face shave from a 6k. He does it but I can't help but to think a 6k edge would rip my face off, plus he seems to be the only one with those results.
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:D

don't be ashamed murray carter rips his face, there is no other way. even on a straight razor with angle guide and very low pressure on the stones you can't get a comfortable and painless shave out of a 10k stone. and i tell you that because i tried with quite a lot of different straght razors, even kamisori.

even with a perfect, burr free 6k edge you won't shave painlessly that's just because of micro serrations and that's unavoidable.

murray uses this as a marketing gimmick, he sure rips his face, just pretend he doesn't
 
pwet said:
:D

don't be ashamed murray carter rips his face, there is no other way. even on a straight razor with angle guide and very low pressure on the stones you can't get a comfortable and painless shave out of a 10k stone. and i tell you that because i tried with quite a lot of different straght razors, even kamisori.

even with a perfect, burr free 6k edge you won't shave painlessly that's just because of micro serrations and that's unavoidable.

murray uses this as a marketing gimmick, he sure rips his face, just pretend he doesn't
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I don't know if Murray rips his face, but I find I am able to shave after 10k with a str8 razor. Not as comfortable as I can with a little stropping after the stones and I certainly don't do it normally, only for checking it out..

Does murray use a strop of some sorts after sharpening?

Also Murray Carter is a respected bladesmith so it's not far fetched to think he might know a trick or two :)
 
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That's what I was thinking :)

Still I wonder what his edge quality is like, I feel I can get the most from my tools but there is always the question of "is it" is it the best I can do or am I missing something. O'well, time to push the envelope again :)
 
a while ago there has been a "sharpening olympic" on KF, a few members sharpened a standard jap kitchen knife, each their way. the edge was inspected/tested by dave martell. murray carter entered the "competition" and if i recall his work was judged the sharpest but he also left a kinda huge wire edge on the blade wich is pretty unavoidable on most J kitchen knives if you stop at 6k and don't work the burr for a very long time.

i should try to find the thread but i'm way too lazy.


zyhano said:
I don't know if Murray rips his face, but I find I am able to shave after 10k with a str8 razor. Not as comfortable as I can with a little stropping after the stones and I certainly don't do it normally, only for checking it out..
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i too can shave my face at 10k, with a straight or a thin knife, but it's not gonna be painless. i can even shave my face at 1k plus strop (i tried) but i will bleed all over the place.

i think you got what i was saying .... ;)
 
You guys sound nutty! Like Murray, I'm on his website and the darn thing is pitching me - won't shut up! :D

I am Murray Carter, 17th-generation Yoshimoto Bladesmith and certified Master Bladesmith......bla bla...take my courses...bla bla...

idiots.jpg
 
pwet said:
a while ago there has been a "sharpening olympic" on KF, a few members sharpened a standard jap kitchen knife, each their way. the edge was inspected/tested by dave martell. murray carter entered the "competition" and if i recall his work was judged the sharpest but he also left a kinda huge wire edge on the blade wich is pretty unavoidable on most J kitchen knives if you stop at 6k and don't work the burr for a very long time.

i should try to find the thread but i'm way too lazy.



i too can shave my face at 10k, with a straight or a thin knife, but it's not gonna be painless. i can even shave my face at 1k plus strop (i tried) but i will bleed all over the place.

i think you got what i was saying .... ;)
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I don't get it :confused: huge wire edge and it was the sharpest :confused::confused:




I found the thread and the reason, very sad.
 
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