THE Hollow Handle Knife Thread

Gaston,

I have to agree with you. It's surprising to see that 039 has sawteeth dipped to the back. Totally useless. During the Rambo craze, I believe Lile had 1-2 helpers in the shop. It appears someone just wasn't thinking that day. Timberline always got the correct angle. So did Buck for that matter, although the Buckmaster saw wasn't very effective for other reasons. I agree, if you're gonna put a saw on your knife, do it right.
 
Sam,

Another great knife from the Wilson Custom Knives shop. Your sheaths are getting better and better. I like how you angled the corners of the sheath to meet the guard. It's all in the details! :thumbup:
 
Gaston,

Here is the screen used, First Blood knife (5 of 13) that was auctioned off a years ago. As we can see, Lile was using the forward slant teeth in his original design. Good catch on the Rambo II knife above.


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Gaston, angling the teeth is one of the easiest parts about making them. It's far more likely that more people omit this step simply because either they don't really test their saw, or they know that most aren't ever going to use the saw or the knife and it doesn't really matter most of the time.
 
Very nice blade, Sam. I think it is good looking and a size I would like to carry.

Thank you sams. I get orders for the smaller knives at probably 3 to 1 over the bigger "Rambo" knives. I love them too, but the majority of people I have interacted with that are going to use their knives a lot go for a smaller lighter design. A lot of customers start out saying the same thing you did, "I want a size I will actually carry." Either way, I'm happy. :thumbup:

Sam,

Another great knife from the Wilson Custom Knives shop. Your sheaths are getting better and better. I like how you angled the corners of the sheath to meet the guard. It's all in the details! :thumbup:

Thank you Tom. I've been trying to focus on doing what I like design-wise, and sometimes other people actually like it too, lol! Thank you again. :thumbup:

Sam
 
Gaston, angling the teeth is one of the easiest parts about making them. It's far more likely that more people omit this step simply because either they don't really test their saw, or they know that most aren't ever going to use the saw or the knife and it doesn't really matter most of the time.

I hate to hear that explanation, Sam, especially on a custom knife. If angling the teeth is easy, why not make the saw functional? Wasn't Lile the originator of that saw design? I agree with Gaston, and I'm sure you do too, that the saw on a custom knife should be as functional as possible. No excuse for leaving the sawteeth flat or at the wrong angle, especially on a Lile knife.
 
I hate to hear that explanation, Sam, especially on a custom knife. If angling the teeth is easy, why not make the saw functional? Wasn't Lile the originator of that saw design? I agree with Gaston, and I'm sure you do too, that the saw on a custom knife should be as functional as possible. No excuse for leaving the sawteeth flat or at the wrong angle, especially on a Lile knife.

That's a good question, Tom. My guess in general is what I mentioned earlier about either not knowing/testing, or figuring it won't be used. In the case of the Lile's, there's always the possibility that a few slipped out without it being caught and not having the teeth angled.

But yes, I completely agree with you that if it has a saw, it should be reasonably functional. Otherwise, what's the point? As far as Lile originating that style saw, I really don't know. It is certainly possible, and I don't recall seeing it on any earlier knives, but I can't say for certain. It's obvious he understood what it took to make them work though, so there must be a logical explanation for why some got skipped on angling the teeth.

Sam
 
Some neat old survival knives on that famous website that accepts bids. Pretty neat to see these old knives re-surface.

Jack Crain
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Webster Wood
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Dan Valois
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Thanks TAH! I'll check out those Jack Crain...

I agree with you that making a major visual feature completely non-functional is terrible idea... It completely ruins the knife in my view...

I am glad the First Blood movie knife had the dip...

Here is the First Blood 091, functional dipped saw :):

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"Matching" Mission 091, no dip... :( :

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And here's another one I did not realize had no dip... (original in close-up, and 25th anniversary in the profile shot):

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United Cutlery clones typically have no dip: Both for the Mission and First Blood, but you'd hardly expect anything functional from those...:

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6 of 10 Mission movie knife, very obvious dip: Hooray!

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I'd be curious to see a performance comparison of the Parrish sawback to a properly dipped Lile saw: I can say from my own comparison that on the similar RJ Martin saw, vs the Lile saw, that the difference is small but in favour of the Lile saw, largely because the blade on the RJ has no cross-section taper due to the saber grind: 3" plus diameter is one inch for Lile vs 3/4" on RJ martin, and both go through 2" diameter.

As far as the curious Colin Cox sawback design goes, with sharp edged teeths sitting on a deep hollow grind, I think I have recently understood something about the intent behind the design;

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I think, besides slicing very heavy rope, the design is also intended to be used as a "chopping saw"... So it might be a dual purpose and dual use...: Sawing for large diameter rope, but also doubling as a spare chopping edge for wood! Until it is tried, hard to say how well the idea works...

I've changed my mind about flat grinds, and I think they make a lot of sense for knives with sawbacks, because besides the advantage of the tapering sides for the saw on top, they are generally thinner in cross-section, which allows hitting inside a previous chop, and so hitting the bottom of a previous chop at full speed. With a saber grind on the other hand, hitting a previous hit might cause a large deceleration before the edge reaches the bottom: This means saber grinds have to be made to chop in a wider V cut, to avoid hitting the same spot twice...: This is not necessarily a huge difference in performance, but with round handles the more you can hit straight the less likely the handle will roll, if you are tired and not gripping hard enough... Avoiding sideway rolls can be significant, because allowing a roll can cause the edge apex to be "bent" into a wire edge: A bad deal for the edge if it happens... My Lile Mission had no rolling tendency at all, thanks the narrow V pattern it can cut into... Combined with the better sawback performance, it does seem a simple V flat ground profile is a little more logical... That being said, I still like the look and blade heft of sabre grinds...

Gaston
 
...

As far as the curious Colin Cox sawback design goes, with sharp edged teeths sitting on a deep hollow grind, I think I have recently understood something about the intent behind the design;

15856.jpg


I think, besides slicing very heavy rope, the design is also intended to be used as a "chopping saw"... So it might be a dual purpose and dual use...: Sawing for large diameter rope, but also doubling as a spare chopping edge for wood! Until it is tried, hard to say how well the idea works...

I've changed my mind about flat grinds, and I think they make a lot of sense for knives with sawbacks, because besides the advantage of the tapering sides for the saw on top, they are generally thinner in cross-section, which allows hitting inside a previous chop, and so hitting the bottom of a previous chop at full speed. With a saber grind on the other hand, hitting a previous hit might cause a large deceleration before the edge reaches the bottom: This means saber grinds have to be made to chop in a wider V cut, to avoid hitting the same spot twice...: This is not necessarily a huge difference in performance, but with round handles the more you can hit straight the less likely the handle will roll, if you are tired and not gripping hard enough... Avoiding sideway rolls can be significant, because allowing a roll can cause the edge apex to be "bent" into a wire edge: A bad deal for the edge if it happens... My Lile Mission had no rolling tendency at all, thanks the narrow V pattern it can cut into... Combined with the better sawback performance, it does seem a simple V flat ground profile is a little more logical... That being said, I still like the look and blade heft of sabre grinds...

Gaston

Unfortunately we can't ask Mr. Cox exactly what his thoughts were on that saw, but I find it highly improbable that he intended it to be a "chopping saw," whatever that may be or entail. Certainly possible, but it looks more to me like he is doing his version of Randall's saw on that one. Chopping with a thinned out portion of the blade that is heavily notched is generally considered a bad idea, given the concept of stress risers. But I would encourage you to try it out, preferably on video, and report back with your findings. I am looking forward to the results and thank you for your efforts.

Also, glad to see you have caught up with everyone else on flat grinds. I knew you would come around eventually. Good to have you on board! :thumbup:

Sam
 
So it might be a dual purpose and dual use...: Sawing for large diameter rope, but also doubling as a spare chopping edge for wood!
Seems like there were, and still are, a lot of survival knives with the main saw being a "rope saw". I never understood this feature. How many times would someone need to saw through a large diameter rope in a survival situation? :confused:

I've changed my mind about flat grinds, and I think they make a lot of sense for knives with sawbacks, because besides the advantage of the tapering sides for the saw on top...
I agree. A knifemaker can properly angle the sawteeth all they want, but if the rest of the blade can't pass through due to no clearance, it ain't gonna matter. Example? The Buckmaster with its low primary grind. :(

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Seems like there were, and still are, a lot of survival knives with the main saw being a "rope saw". I never understood this feature. How many times would someone need to saw through a large diameter rope in a survival situation? :confused:

Happens in the movies all the time... any time there's a rope bridge, there's some guy trying to chop it or cut it or saw it down. :)
 
Some neat old survival knives on that famous website that accepts bids. Pretty neat to see these old knives re-surface.

Jack Crain
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I've been lusting over Jack Crain's Life support System since I was a youngin', back when I saw Arnold Unneccesarily resheath it when he geared up on the beach in "Commando"

Shame that he seems to have become seemingly unreliable, he made som cool knives in his day.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/626931-Problem-with-Jack-Crain-Knives
 
For cutting metal, you mean?

Yes, for cutting metal. It looks like the same style that Randall used on the 18, and Cox made a lot of Randall style knives. It looks like he adapted it to a large bowie style knife, to me. Very beautiful, as were many of his knives.
 
Unfortunately we can't ask Mr. Cox exactly what his thoughts were on that saw, but I find it highly improbable that he intended it to be a "chopping saw," whatever that may be or entail. Certainly possible, but it looks more to me like he is doing his version of Randall's saw on that one. Chopping with a thinned out portion of the blade that is heavily notched is generally considered a bad idea, given the concept of stress risers.
Sam

There are several peculiar things that make it very different from the Randall sawback, and he has used that same pattern on a lot of his various models, always with all the following features: 1-The cross-section of the saw is a very thin hollow grind, but with a pronounced and deliberate convex grind sitting on top of the deep hollow grind, like a hollow grind axe head ending with a thin convex edge. 2-The top of each saw teeth has a fairly long straight edge portion with a final V-edge applied to full sharpness: So the cross-section is 1-Main grind: Deep Hollow Grind 2- Near edge: Deep Convex 3: Actual tooth edge: V-edge(!)

The 2-4 mm edge length sitting on top of each tooth means the tooth loses a lot of pulling-stroke aggression, because the tooth top is no longer pointy in profile...

Because of the way the teeth are done, they are very strong and would certainly not break while chopping: The loss of efficiency for chopping compared to a plain edge would be large however, because the spacing between each "teeth top edge" is large... On the other hand, the chopping might be less noisy...

Notice I say a 2-4 mm edge, because if you look at all the knives he has done this way, the spacing of the teeth is deliberately uneven: It is the most peculiar thing about all the teeth he has done this way...: They are never even, and yet the rest of the knife is very precisely done...: The teeth are wildly uneven, and this certainly hurts the cosmetic appeal of these knives... In my view, it is too pronounced to be unintentional, especially with this consistent effect across several models...

Maybe he found that unevenly spaced teeth progressed faster?

In any case, I can tell you the knife is made by someone who really believed all the way in everything that he did with it...: The two Liles I have are nowhere near the ballpark in the care exhibited, like for instance the trueness of every flat surface (before the re-grinding of the Sly II by Josh at least!)... The thinness and aggressivity of the point geometry, and the edge, is really all that could be accomplished with this basic design... Without any round trip to Josh, this burly ungainly-looking whale-knife might be the sharpest "as is" big knife I have ever owned, and by far the sharpest over nine inches...

As to the sense of putting a rope-cutting serrated edge on the back, like on the Al Mar SF-10 -which is one of the best examples of this- the reason this makes sense on a Survival Knife is that an aggressive serrated rope cutting edge, like on the Al Mar, can be brutally used without sharpening for very long periods: Unless very thin to begin with, a conventional edge eventually becomes quite dangerous to the user from the high effort, and this in a surprisingly short time...

But a serrated rope edge will retain a useable sharpness for many, many multiples of this continuous use without sharpening, and a serrated edge can still be applied to all sorts of conventional uses: I test I read once was done on "survival knives" to build shelters (if memory serves, one of the knives was of the old "pilot survival" type), and only one had the rope-cutting back: The tester said that he was surprised how long the serrated rope cutting back remained useful after both the conventional edges were completely gone...

I would own the Al Mar SF-10 for that reason alone if the blade had not been made in 3/16" stock, which I feel crosses a kind of boundary for me for that size of blade...: I Just feel 3/16" is wrong for such a large blade...

Gaston
 
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There are several peculiar things that make it very different from the Randall sawback, and he has used that same pattern on a lot of his various models, always with all the following features: 1-The cross-section of the saw is a very thin hollow grind, but with a pronounced and deliberate convex grind sitting on top of the deep hollow grind, like a hollow grind axe head ending with a thin convex edge. 2-The top of each saw teeth has a fairly long straight edge portion with a final V-edge applied to full sharpness: So the cross-section is 1-Main grind: Deep Hollow Grind 2- Near edge: Deep Convex 3: Actual tooth edge: V-edge(!)

The 2-4 mm edge length sitting on top of each tooth means the tooth loses a lot of pulling-stroke aggression, because the tooth top is no longer pointy in profile...

Because of the way the teeth are done, they are very strong and would certainly not break while chopping: The loss of efficiency for chopping compared to a plain edge would be large however, because the spacing between each "teeth top edge" is large... On the other hand, the chopping might be less noisy...

Notice I say a 2-4 mm edge, because if you look at all the knives he has done this way, the spacing of the teeth is deliberately uneven: It is the most peculiar thing about all the teeth he has done this way...: They are never even, and yet the rest of the knife is very precisely done...: The teeth are wildly uneven, and this certainly hurts the cosmetic appeal of these knives... In my view, it is too pronounced to be unintentional, especially with this consistent effect across several models...

Maybe he found that unevenly spaced teeth progressed faster?

In any case, I can tell you the knife is made by someone who really believed all the way in everything that he did with it...: The two Liles I have are nowhere near the ballpark in the care exhibited, like for instance the trueness of every flat surface (before the re-grinding of the Sly II by Josh at least!)... The thinness and aggressivity of the point geometry, and the edge, is really all that could be accomplished with this basic design... Without any round trip to Josh, this burly ungainly-looking whale-knife might be the sharpest "as is" big knife I have ever owned, and by far the sharpest over nine inches...

As to the sense of putting a rope-cutting serrated edge on the back, like on the Al Mar SF-10 -which is one of the best examples of this- the reason this makes sense on a Survival Knife is that an aggressive serrated rope cutting edge, like on the Al Mar, can be brutally used without sharpening for very long periods: Unless very thin to begin with, a conventional edge eventually becomes quite dangerous to the user from the high effort, and this in a surprisingly short time...

But a serrated rope edge will retain a useable sharpness for many, many multiples of this continuous use without sharpening, and a serrated edge can still be applied to all sorts of conventional uses: I test I read once was done on "survival knives" to build shelters (if memory serves, one of the knives was of the old "pilot survival" type), and only one had the rope-cutting back: The tester said that he was surprised how long the serrated rope cutting back remained very useful after both the conventional edges were completely gone...

I would own the Al Mar SF-10 for that reason alone if the blade had not been made in 3/16" stock, which I feel crosses a kind of boundary for me for that size of blade...: I Just feel 3/16" is wrong for such a large blade...

Gaston

Sounds good. Now go chop with the chopping saw. Interested to see how it works.
 
Metal saw.

Even for thin aluminium skin I doubt it would work at all: The bizarre thing about it is that the sharp edge on top of each teeth really kills off almost all the aggressivity of the sawing action...: The teeth are sharp but slightly rounded front and back... It is quite sharp in cross-section, but you can run your finger across it and you know even rope would not be aggressively cut...: I think a simple plain edge would have made more sense as a spine chopping edge: It is possible the only reason he put the serrations is for the "sawback" look: The only saving grace is I think the sawback will chop quite well, just not as well as a plain edge would have...

The serrated edge on the back of the Crain knives makes even less sense...

I'll test the chopping concept if I get a second Cox knife with a similar saw: The mirror polish is quite a deterrent to casual use, although he did leave a satin finish on the bevels.

Gaston
 
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