THE Hollow Handle Knife Thread

Great work on re-shaping the Schrade...

Yes the Chris Reeves Jereboam I have needed an edge re-grind to be passable: The 0.040"/1 mm is bare bones minimal, but grew a bit thicker towards the tip: With the edge re-grind by Josh it became acceptable throughout the edge, but what really hurts the Chris Reeves/Schrade designs is the narrow blade, even on the bigger ones like the Jereboam: A Sabre blade with a hollow grind can work, but the blade has to be quite wide: On my CR I find the hollow grind sabre edge can bounce on a chopping cut's sides: A wider blade would have avoided that. Also, for sawback designs, full flat ground is better, so...

Gaston
 
Good work, RX. Makes you wonder why Schrade didn't go with a flat grind in the first place.
 
I would think because they were offering something that was supposed to look and feel like a CRK, down to the gray paint. Also, I just made the world's toughest knife design a little weaker, and sometimes $50 knives don't get treated so well by consumers.

A better question might be why CRK never did, but CRK's hollow grinds where larger and higher, so maybe they had better cutting geometry in the first place.

I'm just glad the existing grinds and embossing made this modification come out so cleanly. I had measured everything beforehand so I knew it would, but it was great to see that it turned out as planned. Having a heavy handle balances the tip in such a way that using it for fine work will be easier than with other knives of this length, I think. And the added handle mass can contribute to chopping if you hold the knife low on the handle/screw cap.

Unless the steel turns out to be just too soft, I think this is now a genuinely useful bushcraft/field knife, rather than some combat oriented curiosity.
 
Posted on the one sister thread on Bushcraft USA:

http://bushcraftusa.com/forum/showthread.php/73570-Post-your-hollow-handle-survival-knives/page64

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Made by Marfione, of Microtech fame.

Gaston
 
That may be the most beautiful example of a survival knife loaded with pointless design features.

I want one.
 
Yes, obviously inspired by the Jack Crain.

If we break it down in styles, there is (to summarize with a very broad brush):

-Jack Crain style
-Narrow Lile style (First Blood)
-Broad Lile style (Mission)
-Parrish style
-Chris Reeves style
-Randall Model 18 style
-Al Mar SF-10 style
-Buckmaster rope-cutting clip style
-Various short-blade "bushcraft" types, usually spear points, or deep belly point, typically with no sawback.

The Kershaw is really one of those rare outliers...

The style I like best is the one where the full spine-width sawback is intended for full depth wood cutting, and yet the saw is kept completely distinct from the clip.

The Al Mar SF-10 is one of the rare ones that really tries to re-think the whole concept, and where the clip is also kept notch-free... (There is conflicting data on this one if the blade is 3/16" or 1/4": If someone could clarify this I would be thankful)... The big downside for me of this one is that the leather sheath has a bizarre over-handle snap that I just don't understand: I'm all for originality, but that pushed this one a step too far...

The issue that is the most rarely tackled is the thought given to the functional problem that the sawback represents: It seems to me that much of the potentially dangerous practical objections to sawbacks can be nullified by reversing them to cut on the push stroke: It does lose about 20-30% of stroke efficiency that way, which is a significant loss for an already marginal saw, but for a knife potentially meant for "survival", including self-defense, against a bear for instance, the advantage of not getting the knife stuck is a huge deal, and a far greater issue than the potential loss of saw cutting efficiency...

Amazingly, there are only two Survival Knife sawbacks (among true Hollow Handles) that I know to have the full-width wood sawback reversed forward: The very early editions of the Aitor Jungle King I, barely made for a few years in the 30 years it has been around (a superb saw, but a dull low-sabre grind edge), and the 30 strong production of the RJ Martin models(!)...

Reversing the saw forward is one of the most potentially important life-saving feature such a knife could have, yet it is almost never done... To be fair the Martin Apparo is different with a two-way saw, with a clever fuller slot milled under the saw to help friction, and the saw is also deeply "stepped" higher over the clip to resist penetration, but that is still not quite as good as a reversed saw... It seems to me if "Survival Knives" really meant to be functional and versatile, the reversed saw would be a common feature, or at least an option offered...

Anyway, these are the thoughts that the Marfione knife inspires in me: Purely stylistic elements are very common in these knives, and this seems to emphasize that they are not taken seriously as tools...

Gaston
 
Jerry Busse also made hollow handles with the reversed saw as well. He just did a run of saw backs not long ago and they seem to work pretty well.
 
One of the reasons why I sold my TGLB was the choil and the double guard. I just can't see any value in that in field use at all.. and it was too thick anyway. Funny how grail knife turns in to meh when you actually start to use it.
 
I didn't realize there were so many HH knives out there until I found this thread.
I have a Smith & Wesson model 6070 that I got from my Dad many years ago.
I never used it and I don't know anything about it.
Looks like a serial number on the knife (1025) and the sheath has 104 below the S&W logo.
 
Jerry Busse also made hollow handles with the reversed saw as well. He just did a run of saw backs not long ago and they seem to work pretty well.

I had forgotten about the Busse saw design: True!

The funny thing is Jerry Busse did do a few sawbacks in he early 1980s, and they were even some that were hollow handle types! One looked a bit like the Buckmaster with a reversed saw, so he picked up on the idea of the reversed saw right from the start...

As to not liking a design just for the double guard.... Hard to say: One thing that I often noted is that, when looking at a knife, photos will often give you no idea of how it feels in the hand. The Farid First Blood for instance felt exactly the way it looked... While the Lile "Mission" is truly a strange experience to handle, even today after all this time...: Some knives simply don't feel the way they look.

I have found over time I prefer the feel of hollow handles over any other type of handle, but the interaction of the guard with the hand is a crucial factor: The guard shape can have a huge impact on a round handle, because the hand can use the guard to "orient" and stabilize itself: If you don't know about hollow handles, I would say avoid the large oval guard types, and choose the skinnier lozange or hexagonal shaped guards: They make a huge difference...

I still slightly prefer a thin-edged hollow grind for chopping, but not with round hollow handles... (Compatibility with saber-ground hollow grinds is actually for me the biggest functional reason to prefer a conventional "oval" full tang handle!): The skinnier flat grind is more stable and less prone to rolling, so combine that with an hexagonal guard, and the difference in rolling stability is very large compared to a hollow grind blade design fitted with a round handle and a wide oval guard...

On an hexagonal guard I find the top quillion is never a problem to moving the thumb forward, because the guard is so narrow there that the thumb can run besides the guard and still easily reach the blade back. On an oval guard that is a real problem... Personally I can't stand the way a single guard looks, and I find it advantageous if the snap strap catches on the top quillion not the bottom, so I like a large top quillion for that reason alone...

I find a very long bottom guard is essential hand protection while chopping, because I tend to hit close to the guard to get the most weight into the chop. I have at least twice really bent a guard for hitting too close while chopping... I had the Sly II guard unbent by Josh, with no problems, and tried to unbend the Colin Cox guard myself, tapping with a padded hammer, and this did not work so well...: The tube handle moved 1/16" back, but stopped and still seemed absolutely rock-solid (it would not move back forward either, even when tapping!)... With a hugely overly long and very tight-fitting 2"+ tang, I felt stabilizing the now wobbly guard was good enough...: I don't even think the knife has been significantly weakened...: I tested it brutally, and neither the guard or blade have moved at all... I filled the gaps with glue and epoxy, and re-painted the guard with several coats of solid olive drab lacquer to completely hide the slanted joints: I actually like the very slight raked guard looks much better now(!), but it is a reminder that long guards are not a luxury when chopping...

Because the bottom guard has to be so big, it would look out of balance with nothing on top: I had a knife modified this way once and I hated the way it looked...

Functionality-wise the things I hate the most are: 1-thick edges, over 0.025", and 2- Non-functional sawbacks... The only sawback knife I own that is like that right now is the Andrew Clifford Sly II, but here the notches are so small and so wide apart it almost seems like he never really intended this to be a saw...

Gaston
 
Is a long guard essential for chopping because these blades are relatively short, or are all the guardless machete, kukri, parang, leukus made wrong?
 
Is a long guard essential for chopping because these blades are relatively short, or are all the guardless machete, kukri, parang, leukus made wrong?

You nailed it, because they are short! Also the benefit of swinging (rotating the blade loosely, so that the hand is not abruptly stopped, but the deceleration is instead all soaked up by the blade's weight as its own rotation stops, this "separate" rotation in effect isolating the hand from the deceleration) grows exponentially larger with a longer blade: 9-11" blades are below the limit where swinging out-performs a "rigid" hold... It would make no sense to hold rigidly a 14-18" machete: You swing it, and the further you hit from the handle the faster that portion of the blade travels, which means that much more energy is transferred into the wood, and not back into your hand...

I notice a lot of 8-12" knives are used to chop mid-blade: This is done by imitating to some extent the machete, and rotating-swinging the blade loosely in the hand, and letting the blade's "separate" rotation speed do the work: Because of the shorter blade, the speed benefit over the swung length is very low, and a rigid hold will perform better...

With hollow handles there is a broader surface of transfer near the guard, and that squeezes the web of flesh between thumb and forefinger more, a lot more than any other "oval" handle types, so it helps to not swing them and instead hold them rigidly: This rigidity makes the whole weight of the forearm go into the cut, but to mitigate the pain from the pommel-down "bite", it pays to hit as close to the guard as you can...

On the Trailmaster I could not use this technique because the handle is so narrow it literally cannot chop holding rigid at all: You have to swing it to hit mid-blade, and so it feels impressive in comfort, since the blade's rotation soaks everything, but the actual chopping performance is very low compared to a rigidly held hollow handle: Here the Trailmaster was likely swung loosely (by me), and it might do better "rigid", but "rigid" just feels scary because the handle is so narrow, and the checkering just bites the skin so viciously from the severe pommel-down movement (on the Trailmaster the pommel doesn't "bite", the handle is just so narrow it "sinks" upwards, but the checkering does bite from all the motion...). The Trailmaster guard is also way too small, which makes it too scary to hit real close to the hand, so you hit less hard instead...

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The smooth unaggressive handle and big guard of the Model 12 allowed it to be used to chop "rigidly" close to the guard, and since the Model 12 weights more than the Lile "Mission" by a little, the difference in performance here is largely the contribution of the broader "width" of the handle near the guard of the hollow handle: It simply squeezes the web of flesh there more, so more of the weight of the arm is drawn into the cut...

Gaston
 
I recently acquired what I call a handmade hollow handle survival bowie knife. D2 steel blade, stainless steel handle and uniquely long endcap. The think about this unique knife...The blade is shaped like a bowie knife...fatter towards the curve tip and all. And it is razor sharp not just on the edge, but the spine is sharpened too...All the way down.

I also recently purchased a brand new Kizylar Extreme Survivalist K0081 X Hollow Handle Knife, the Black Blade one. I had never heard of Kizylar knives but they lay claim of being handmade knives from Kizylar, Russia, and reviews say they are Bad To The Bone in every sense of the word.

I will post some pics when I get it.
 
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Still reeling from that 11.5" 1/4" stock thing you posted long ago!:

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You never posted who made it or the sheath it came with... It seems you said it was a one off... I am probably going to get custom leather for my 11.25" Voorhis (the maker's leather seems so-so);I'd be curious to see the leather you got for that one...

Gaston
 
Gaston444,

I dont have this knife or its sheath anymore. I donated it to my knife club, the Badger Knives Club...to be auctioned off during the Badger Knives Show. And they were very appreciative of it. That is all that matters to me. ThankYe!!
 
My beautiful handmade Ray Matton First Blood Tribute Knife just might...sad to say...be the very Last knife that Ray Matton will ever make. I have talked with Ray lately, who has all but permanently shut the doors to his knifemaking business due to illness and ailments!

It is my undying prayer and hope that God's Miraculous Healing comes to Ray. And he can once again start making knives, a special craft which very few people are blessed with the skill to do.

And I am just Hoping and Praying for Ray to once again be able to get back on the "horse" as they say, and make his awesome extraordinary quality knives, and once again have a smile on his face and in his heart.

Still though, should my Ray Matton beautiful handmade knife be the very last one for him, I will deem it Priceless and no amount of money will Ever be able to remove it from my posession!!
 
I also just recently purchased a M9 survival field knife. The maker mark says Strider Knives, and made with D2 steel, 8" blade, hardened at 58°-59° hrc.

I wasn't familiar with Strider Knives so I did some research on it. Looks like the guy that made this beautiful hardcore fulltanger's name is Mick Strider. Apparently Mick Strider is an awesome, super wellknown knifemaker who was associated with Chuck Buck and Buck Knives some way. But will know more and do more research once I get this beautiful knife.
 
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