Sam Wilson
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Test it out and report back. Looking forward to seeing a "chopping saw" in action.
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The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
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THE Hollow Handle Knife Thread
- Thread starter Sam Wilson
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Test it out and report back. Looking forward to seeing a "chopping saw" in action.
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Gaston,
From "Survival Knife Reference Guide" by Douglas Berner, 1986. Here is Berner's take on Cox's sawteeth design, although the sawteeth on your knife are angled in the opposite direction.
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Now you have my curiosity. The more I look at Colin's sawteeth, it does make me wonder about their design. With the blade stock being very thick and the teeth having a deep hollow grind, it would be difficult for the blade to pass through any material. I'm still leaning towards a metal saw, but it would be interesting to hear other opinions on this one. These photos show good detail.
Sam Wilson
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The jamming is exactly what would happen. I didn't know Colin Cox and never spoke with him about his saw pattern, but looking at it it seems to me that it is simply his take on Randall's style of metal saw for cutting out of aircraft aluminum. He may have modified it for performance or stylistic purposes.
Sometimes, makers do things because they look cool, too. Not saying that they didn't work, they may work like a charm. But look at Crain's saw on the LS1. It's pretty obvious it isn't going to saw very well into wood. But man, that thing looks awesome, and has been an iconic movie knife for decades! A personal favorite. :thumbup:
Sam
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This makes the most sense to me too, Sam, with more weight leaning towards the "stylistic" part. Those deep hollow grinds do make beautiful blades. :thumbup:
Sam Wilson
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Sam Wilson
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Also, recently completed a video on the SSII and thought I'd post it up. It explains a number of the features and options, and also why I do some things the way I do. Not the highest quality, but it gets the point across, I believe.
[video=youtube_share;7SO9pkk7g0s]http://youtu.be/7SO9pkk7g0s[/video]
Sam
[video=youtube_share;7SO9pkk7g0s]http://youtu.be/7SO9pkk7g0s[/video]
Sam
Mistwalker
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Well my daughters Martin came today, Newt did a beautiful job on it. I will be making a Molle sheath for it and it will all be going into a presentation box with her name and rank on an engraved plate with a fitted interior for the knife and sheaths and room for whatever extra's she wants to add.
I think she's going to love it.
Looks awesome Dave. I see he has extended the saw some. I hope it serves her well man. Three years later the original prototype is still doing very well
.
Thanks a lot TAH! That kind of information is just priceless. Thanks very much for going through the effort.
It is interesting to see how the book describes the tang as both thread and nut, and soldered: My understanding of Randalls is that they are just soldered. The Hollow Handles depicted in your book are his very early style that were less "Randall like"...
One thing to notice on the soldering of later Cox knives is that, unlike Randall, the outside of the tube has no soldering visible to the back of the guard. Given the available interior handle space, the tang must be around two inches long if not more...
The equipment on my knives has now evolved with the idea of using a pair of socks as sleeves around the sheath (Lile Mission, RJ Martin, and the Cox, the Sly II being so light it was left bare, and combined instead with a shoulder harness): This allows much more comfortable inside the pants carry, and this in turn allowed far more equipment to be added to the sheath... I am now at the point where two of my knives can carry complete thermal blankets, and they are still very comfortable inside the waistband! The Cox has 2/3rds of a blanket fitted inside the unused belt loop, plus a complete blanket wrapped around the sheath... The RJ Martin (now using the Cox sheath) has the blanket, still in its plastic sleeve, held at sheath's tip, with a full wrapping of 425 lbs paracord around it. Still quite slim, durable and confortable: The 0.3" of wasted space at the tip is what made this possible...
I'm having trouble with the camera interface program (I think), so I'll have to post pics some other time... It is an interesting evolution to look at though... Oh, and really thick fluffy socks won't work: Even one of those is too "fat", and for the idea to be optimal at least two socks are needed: They can be used as emergency gloves... The comfort level is a revelation: I forget it is there...
If someone knows the weight of a 9" Lile Sly II, I would be curious to know, as it surprised me that it was light enough for the shoulder harness. If the First Blood is around 14 ounces, I would guess 12 at most.
Gaston
It is interesting to see how the book describes the tang as both thread and nut, and soldered: My understanding of Randalls is that they are just soldered. The Hollow Handles depicted in your book are his very early style that were less "Randall like"...
One thing to notice on the soldering of later Cox knives is that, unlike Randall, the outside of the tube has no soldering visible to the back of the guard. Given the available interior handle space, the tang must be around two inches long if not more...
The equipment on my knives has now evolved with the idea of using a pair of socks as sleeves around the sheath (Lile Mission, RJ Martin, and the Cox, the Sly II being so light it was left bare, and combined instead with a shoulder harness): This allows much more comfortable inside the pants carry, and this in turn allowed far more equipment to be added to the sheath... I am now at the point where two of my knives can carry complete thermal blankets, and they are still very comfortable inside the waistband! The Cox has 2/3rds of a blanket fitted inside the unused belt loop, plus a complete blanket wrapped around the sheath... The RJ Martin (now using the Cox sheath) has the blanket, still in its plastic sleeve, held at sheath's tip, with a full wrapping of 425 lbs paracord around it. Still quite slim, durable and confortable: The 0.3" of wasted space at the tip is what made this possible...
I'm having trouble with the camera interface program (I think), so I'll have to post pics some other time... It is an interesting evolution to look at though... Oh, and really thick fluffy socks won't work: Even one of those is too "fat", and for the idea to be optimal at least two socks are needed: They can be used as emergency gloves... The comfort level is a revelation: I forget it is there...
If someone knows the weight of a 9" Lile Sly II, I would be curious to know, as it surprised me that it was light enough for the shoulder harness. If the First Blood is around 14 ounces, I would guess 12 at most.
Gaston
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Nice video, Sam. :thumbup:
That's correct.
According to the "Survival Knife Reference Guide", which gives specs for each knife, the First Blood and the Sly II both weigh 16 oz. and the Rambo II weighs 20 oz.
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Thanks TAH!
I had no way of knowing, as the Farid has an all steel pommel that skyrockets the weight through the roof...
The "Mission" is quoted as 16.9 ounces, and the difference between mine and the Sly II is definitely way, way more than an ounce... I'd say the difference is closer to two ounces...: I'd give my Sly II 15 ounces at the most (I did measure my Sly II blade as just under 1/8" narrower than the Farid FB). I was unsure about the First Blood because just one ounce of difference between it and the "Mission" seemed too little: I thought maybe it had been quoted 16 with the folder in the handle... [edit: I remember now Arizona Custom Knives weight quotes -which seem precisely done- also quote 16.1 ounces for the Vince Ford or Neeley next Generations, and those have no folder...]
Did you find any remarks anywhere as to what was the intended purpose of the Sly II design? I have heard the figure that 850 un-numbered "Mission"s and 650 "Sly II"s were made. Compared to most of the other custom hollow handles, this is like mass-production! Most of the others I have probably run under 20, the Cox being possibly a one-off...
Gaston
P.S. As I side note, I found on Arizona custom knives a sold Sly II that has 13 teeth (instead of 12) and was 3/16" stock! : Very unusual.... Yet another is also quoted as 3/16" stock, yet mine is 0.245" thick at the top of the teeth even after a full re-grinding of both the blade thickness and the teeth tops...
Quote ACK: "The Sly II was designed by Jimmy Lile to meet the demand for his famous "First Blood" knives."
It seems it was a design deliberately intended for mass-production, with jigs and whatnot... Both my Mission and the Sly II were definitely on the rough side finish wise...
Gaston
I had no way of knowing, as the Farid has an all steel pommel that skyrockets the weight through the roof...
The "Mission" is quoted as 16.9 ounces, and the difference between mine and the Sly II is definitely way, way more than an ounce... I'd say the difference is closer to two ounces...: I'd give my Sly II 15 ounces at the most (I did measure my Sly II blade as just under 1/8" narrower than the Farid FB). I was unsure about the First Blood because just one ounce of difference between it and the "Mission" seemed too little: I thought maybe it had been quoted 16 with the folder in the handle... [edit: I remember now Arizona Custom Knives weight quotes -which seem precisely done- also quote 16.1 ounces for the Vince Ford or Neeley next Generations, and those have no folder...]
Did you find any remarks anywhere as to what was the intended purpose of the Sly II design? I have heard the figure that 850 un-numbered "Mission"s and 650 "Sly II"s were made. Compared to most of the other custom hollow handles, this is like mass-production! Most of the others I have probably run under 20, the Cox being possibly a one-off...
Gaston
P.S. As I side note, I found on Arizona custom knives a sold Sly II that has 13 teeth (instead of 12) and was 3/16" stock! : Very unusual.... Yet another is also quoted as 3/16" stock, yet mine is 0.245" thick at the top of the teeth even after a full re-grinding of both the blade thickness and the teeth tops...
Quote ACK: "The Sly II was designed by Jimmy Lile to meet the demand for his famous "First Blood" knives."
It seems it was a design deliberately intended for mass-production, with jigs and whatnot... Both my Mission and the Sly II were definitely on the rough side finish wise...
Gaston
Thanks very much TAH! That is very nice of you to go through that much trouble...
Wow! Unlike what ACK site claimed for one Mission they were selling, the weight was not 16.9 ounces but 20 ounces!!!
That explains why the Sly II felt so much lighter...
Here is an interesting FB weight variation I came across on the Arizona Custom Knives website:
Designed by Jimmy Lile and made by Vaughn Neeley. Excellent condition.
SKU: 145960
Product Specs
Blade Length
9"
Overall Length
14"
Classification
Custom Knife
Source
Previously Owned
Weight
16.5 oz
As an aside, I likely scored this 11.25" blade monster at Arizona Custom Knives for a mere $410. The blade is a highly polished carbon steel, as Voorhies always does, and the sheath looks a bit thin, but it seems like OK value: I think it started at $625 and kept going down until I finally bought it at $410... Unless it is a Lile, I think these days times are a bit hard for selling hollow handles...
A mere 22.7 ounces for an 11.25" blade... Yes the teeth are dipped...
Interesting feature almost unique to Voorhies is the exterior threading for the buttcap. The tube itself is steel at least, despite the liberal use of brass. The mirror polish presumably compensates for the lack of stain resistance: Curious to see how well that works...
A very interesting feature is the underlying cord that makes a spiral effect under the cord wrap: If this is rigid, it would be a feature that could prevent any rolling while chopping...
So now I have Lile, Cox, Reeves, RJ Martin, A. Clifford... Voorhies was one of the major one I was missing... I won't really buy under a 10" blade any more, which kind of limits the available options...: Parrish and many others are pretty much out now because of this...
One of the last major 10" plus makers I am still missing, who is no longer making them, is RDW. He had some huge and fairly interesting designs, though the look sometimes veered a bit towards fantasy: More of a Gil Hibben feel to them than Lile...
Gaston
Wow! Unlike what ACK site claimed for one Mission they were selling, the weight was not 16.9 ounces but 20 ounces!!!
That explains why the Sly II felt so much lighter...
Here is an interesting FB weight variation I came across on the Arizona Custom Knives website:
Designed by Jimmy Lile and made by Vaughn Neeley. Excellent condition.
SKU: 145960
Product Specs
Blade Length
9"
Overall Length
14"
Classification
Custom Knife
Source
Previously Owned
Weight
16.5 oz
As an aside, I likely scored this 11.25" blade monster at Arizona Custom Knives for a mere $410. The blade is a highly polished carbon steel, as Voorhies always does, and the sheath looks a bit thin, but it seems like OK value: I think it started at $625 and kept going down until I finally bought it at $410... Unless it is a Lile, I think these days times are a bit hard for selling hollow handles...
A mere 22.7 ounces for an 11.25" blade... Yes the teeth are dipped...
Interesting feature almost unique to Voorhies is the exterior threading for the buttcap. The tube itself is steel at least, despite the liberal use of brass. The mirror polish presumably compensates for the lack of stain resistance: Curious to see how well that works...
A very interesting feature is the underlying cord that makes a spiral effect under the cord wrap: If this is rigid, it would be a feature that could prevent any rolling while chopping...
So now I have Lile, Cox, Reeves, RJ Martin, A. Clifford... Voorhies was one of the major one I was missing... I won't really buy under a 10" blade any more, which kind of limits the available options...: Parrish and many others are pretty much out now because of this...
One of the last major 10" plus makers I am still missing, who is no longer making them, is RDW. He had some huge and fairly interesting designs, though the look sometimes veered a bit towards fantasy: More of a Gil Hibben feel to them than Lile...
Gaston
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caine
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Sam Wilson
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Very nice Martin's.
Nice Martins!
By the way the Voorhies is unusual among hollow handles in being probably in 5160 Carbon... He seemed to like that particular steel...
I note from TAH's post that the SLy II is either D-2 or 440C, but the Mission is only 440C... I did not know that. The edge holding on both the Sly II and the Mission was spectacular for me, as I chopped with both at very thin angles...
I also learned the SLy II has a tang that is 3/4" vs the "Mission being 1": Nice concern about saving weight on the Sly II...
"Threaded and sweated" is mentioned as the tang fixation: I wonder what "sweated" means?
Nice to learn Lile's vision of the thin handle cord was to be used as snare wire...
Gaston
By the way the Voorhies is unusual among hollow handles in being probably in 5160 Carbon... He seemed to like that particular steel...
I note from TAH's post that the SLy II is either D-2 or 440C, but the Mission is only 440C... I did not know that. The edge holding on both the Sly II and the Mission was spectacular for me, as I chopped with both at very thin angles...
I also learned the SLy II has a tang that is 3/4" vs the "Mission being 1": Nice concern about saving weight on the Sly II...
"Threaded and sweated" is mentioned as the tang fixation: I wonder what "sweated" means?
Nice to learn Lile's vision of the thin handle cord was to be used as snare wire...
Gaston
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Sweated means silver soldered generally.
Really nice Martins caine, I'm thinking about that Caiman hard. If he extended the fuller like the Apparo and left off the saw teeth I think it would be perfect for me.
Really nice Martins caine, I'm thinking about that Caiman hard. If he extended the fuller like the Apparo and left off the saw teeth I think it would be perfect for me.
I re-profiled a Schrade hollow handle to flat grind:
Took it down to 320 grit, then promptly scratched the tip. Anyway, it is for using in the woods, not mounting on the wall. Removing all trace of the hollow grind also removed the deep "Schrade" stamp on the left side of the blade and thinned the edge nicely, but not too much. They are 1070 and said to be "54.6 HRC", which is an unlikely number - probably 54-56 HRC. So that's going to be pretty tough with that alloy, but probably not something you want the edge too thin or acute. I'll have to go chop on something to see how the new thin edge holds up, but it should be fine.
Despite removing so much material, the new blade profile makes the blade seem larger and visually balanced. The original grind just never seemed very useful when carved with it, but I don't see how this wouldn't be about as useful as any other basic carbon steel knife. It is certainly sturdy!
CRK doesn't make this style anymore, and never made a flat ground version, so my $50 and 3 hours of labor feels entirely worthwhile to end up with such a tough AND useful knife shape. And it has a hollow handle on top of being indestructible!
Took it down to 320 grit, then promptly scratched the tip. Anyway, it is for using in the woods, not mounting on the wall. Removing all trace of the hollow grind also removed the deep "Schrade" stamp on the left side of the blade and thinned the edge nicely, but not too much. They are 1070 and said to be "54.6 HRC", which is an unlikely number - probably 54-56 HRC. So that's going to be pretty tough with that alloy, but probably not something you want the edge too thin or acute. I'll have to go chop on something to see how the new thin edge holds up, but it should be fine.
Despite removing so much material, the new blade profile makes the blade seem larger and visually balanced. The original grind just never seemed very useful when carved with it, but I don't see how this wouldn't be about as useful as any other basic carbon steel knife. It is certainly sturdy!
CRK doesn't make this style anymore, and never made a flat ground version, so my $50 and 3 hours of labor feels entirely worthwhile to end up with such a tough AND useful knife shape. And it has a hollow handle on top of being indestructible!