The Loveless Shop

[Les Robertson]

Hi Kevin,

First, from my observations those two models (though nice) aren't ones I would include in the most popular or sought after of Loveless designs.

Ok, so now there is a separation of what is popular and what is not. I think this is an excellent observation for the collectors who are not advanced collectors.

That just because it is a Loveless does not mean that it is instantly pure gold!

Second, the estimates were a little high in my layperson opinion.

I agree with you on this as well. Which leads me to wonder (given the level of knowledge of those pricing the knives for the auctions) what did they base their estimates on?

Was there some "historical" basis for these estimates. Or was it the "you don't ask..you don't get" school of thought?

That being said, how does this affect not just the Loveless knives that sold for below estimates...but those knives that did not sell at all?

Have we seen the top.

Or going to the questions I asked before:

Was this just anomaly or is this an indicator of future pricing?

In addition to these knives, as Martin pointed out there were several Loveless knives on dealers tables that didn't sell. I suspect most had them overpriced for the market.

Was that because they were looking for the big hit? Or perhaps they paid a lot and as such they had to get X amount of dollars to reach their minimum ROI.

Most ardent collectors and dealers know there is generally a 12-18 month bounce upwards in prices after a very well known (and in this case perhaps the Best Known Maker in the World) pass away.

Even if the knives were not the most desirable the prices seemed a little low.

Especially given the prices for similar knives built by those makers utilizing the Loveless design.

Given the amount of Loveless that are going to surface in the near term.

How is this going to affect other Legends makers knives. Such as Bill Moran who actually built the knives...created the ABS...inspired hundreds if not thousands of makers to forge blades. And built a lot fewer knives. Will the after market on his prices go up or down?

I have every confidence that the early Loveless knives and the ones that someone can prove that Bob actually made. Those prices are going to skyrocket.

Which was one of the reason I was asking the question about the Logo being changed.

 

[giant1]

Hi Giant,

So really what you are saying is that you actually know little or nothing about the feel and craftsmanship of a Loveless knife? You are just guessing.

.

That's right only guessing because all I can do is look at photos on the internet. But I know what I like when I see it, so I look forward to handling one in the future and making my own assessment at that time.

Hi Giant,

Giant, Mike didn't answer my questions in his post.

Why,

He has a vested interest in Loveless knives doing very well. If the prices drop for Loveless knives....the prices will drop for his knives. If the prices continue to go up...do you think Mike will benefit or not benefit from that (GREED)?

Loveless knives are now a commodity. As such collectors, those collectors who bought a Loveless with an eye towards an investment. Will be watching the market closely. Given this, The questions I asked are legitimate questions.

I remember having a conversation with you here on BF (probably in this forum) arguing that knives are not something I would buy as an investment. You argued that it is very possible to make good money out of knives, and proclaimed that you indeed were doing that at the time.

I don't get why it is OK for you to make money from other peoples knives but it is not OK for Mike regardless of the circumstances ?????

Then there are other members here who would be arrogant enough to ask what the new Loveless logo will be even though it has nothing to do with them and is clearly none of their business.

Hoping to protect their own interests? or am I being too cynical now??

You are right about the GREED part...........It's oozing out all over the place.

I finish with my original comment.........

There is a lot of self serving BS being trotted out in this thread.

 

[Kohai999]

See, Jim Merritt called me about a month ago, and said my Dixon fighter was ready, and gave me his cell number.

I just called him...

1. Jim speaks for himself, Mike Lovett is not speaking for Jim or The Loveless Shop. If he wanted to, he has many ways to communicate, and many people who would do it for him.

2. He is going to change the logo mark from "Maker" to "Knives" as he feels this is the right thing to do for the collector.

3. If anyone needs to speak with him e-mail me offline, I'll provide his contact number-with his blessing. I told Jim about this thread, and asked him if we had a problem and he indicated that we were just fine....now unless Jim is speaking out of his ass(he isn't) there is a question of who you want to believe.....I'm obnoxious, but I don't twist words and honor is supremely important in my world, so you can make your decisions as you all see fit.

4. Jim has been a stoic and steadfast gentleman, at every juncture of our dealing with each other. He has not requested to be left alone, has welcomed communication from me and has spoken forthrightly and directly. I admire his honesty and appreciate his directness in answering questions.

5. If there is any question as to why I am even making an issue of previous statements----I HATE bullshit, and I really want to help ensure that Jim can compete in the marketplace as he sees fit....he has after all, made the best Loveless knives out there!...and anyone who feels a connection to that can appreciate it.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Les Robertson]

Giant:

That's right only guessing because all I can do is look at photos on the internet. But I know what I like when I see it, so I look forward to handling one in the future and making my own assessment at that time.

Yep you are right....

There is a lot of self serving BS being trotted out in this thread.

It starts with the guy who has never even handled a Loveless. But somehow feels qualified to chime in with basically zero knowledge of the subject manner....or am I just being to cynical.

I don't get why it is OK for you to make money from other peoples knives but it is not OK for Mike regardless of the circumstances ?????

I didn't say it wasn't ok for Mike to make money...reread what I wrote and why.

I was responding to Mike's comment about me being greedy...while he himself was apparently above that.

I would suggest you ask Mike the same question.

Hoping to protect their own interests? or am I being too cynical now??

Exactly right. Mike has a vested interest to protect. One that he has devoted hours of labor and thousands of dollars in. So his answers...or lack there of are indicative of that vested interest.

 

[Les Robertson]

HI Stephen,

Thanks for that clarification. Class act to change the logo.

Regarding who is speaking for Jim...I suspected as much.

 

[betzner]

See, Jim Merritt called me about a month ago, and said my Dixon fighter was ready, and gave me his cell number.

I just called him...

1. Jim speaks for himself, Mike Lovett is not speaking for Jim or The Loveless Shop. If he wanted to, he has many ways to communicate, and many people who would do it for him.

2. He is going to change the logo mark from "Maker" to "Knives" as he feels this is the right thing to do for the collector.

3. If anyone needs to speak with him e-mail me offline, I'll provide his contact number-with his blessing. I told Jim about this thread, and asked him if we had a problem and he indicated that we were just fine....now unless Jim is speaking out of his ass(he isn't) there is a question of who you want to believe.....I'm obnoxious, but I don't twist words and honor is supremely important in my world, so you can make your decisions as you all see fit.

4. Jim has been a stoic and steadfast gentleman, at every juncture of our dealing with each other. He has not requested to be left alone, has welcomed communication from me and has spoken forthrightly and directly. I admire his honesty and appreciate his directness in answering questions.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Seems to me, in one bold swoop, STeven has put this whole subject to bed. The above has certainly answered every question I have had lately about this subject - and some of the players.

Thanks, STeven-

Bob

 

[Kohai999]

HI Stephen,

Thanks for that clarification. Class act to change the logo.

Regarding who is speaking for Jim...I suspected as much.

Is it too much to ask that you and Mike and anyone else who likes to use the Euro-weenie spelling of my name to stop and put the "v" where it belongs?

Best Regards,

STeVen Garsson

 

[Kevin Jones]

First, I would like to say, I'm certainly NO Expert on Loveless knives. I only started studying Loveless knives and the market a little over three years ago as the Loveless mystique fascinates me.

Hi Kevin,

Ok, so now there is a separation of what is popular and what is not. I think this is an excellent observation for the collectors who are not advanced collectors.
That just because it is a Loveless does not mean that it is instantly pure gold!

No, I wouldn't say a question of what's popular or not, but more what's popular and what's more popular. I think even those with casual interest in Loveless knives know what models are the most desirable.

I agree with you on this as well. Which leads me to wonder (given the level of knowledge of those pricing the knives for the auctions) what did they base their estimates on?

Was there some "historical" basis for these estimates. Or was it the "you don't ask..you don't get" school of thought?

They were probably based loosely on what similar knives sold for in better financial times. Hard times have hit the Loveless market just as it has other markets.

That being said, how does this affect not just the Loveless knives that sold for below estimates...but those knives that did not sell at all?

I'm impressed by the fact that both Loveless offerings sold in spite of the current uncertainty surrounding the direction of Loveless knives. I also see it as a positive that only two Loveless knives were offered this year. I seem to remember there being a much higher number in the auction last year?

Have we seen the top.

Or going to the questions I asked before:

Was this just anomaly or is this an indicator of future pricing?

Again, just a layperson opinion, but I wouldn't have gotten into the market if I felt we have seen the top. I feel the rarer knives, especially the double-edge fighters made in the past will run up after the economy improves. Maybe even before the economy improves. The people in the know are buying from what I see and hear.

In addition to these knives, as Martin pointed out there were several Loveless knives on dealers tables that didn't sell. I suspect most had them overpriced for the market.

There's usually Loveless knives on dealer's show tables that don't sell. Dave, Paul and the other Loveless dealers would be best to comment on this but I would think most Loveless sales happen behind the scenes after discussion between dealer/collector and collector/collector rather than by someone unexpectedly walking up to a dealer's table and plopping down $5000-$20,000 on impulse buying a Loveless knife.

Was that because they were looking for the big hit? Or perhaps they paid a lot and as such they had to get X amount of dollars to reach their minimum ROI.

Most ardent collectors and dealers know there is generally a 12-18 month bounce upwards in prices after a very well known (and in this case perhaps the Best Known Maker in the World) pass away.
True, however I don't remember Bill Moran's prices bouncing up so much though I believe they will at some point.

Even if the knives were not the most desirable the prices seemed a little low.

Especially given the prices for similar knives built by those makers utilizing the Loveless design.

Given the amount of Loveless that are going to surface in the near term.
It will be interesting to see how many come up for sale in the near future. I'm surprised we haven't seen many in the last week. At least I haven't and I have been looking around. The ones posted up here in the last week came out of the Loveless shop or were acquired as a result of knives coming out of the Loveless shop.

How is this going to affect other Legends makers knives. Such as Bill Moran who actually built the knives...created the ABS...inspired hundreds if not thousands of makers to forge blades. And built a lot fewer knives. Will the after market on his prices go up or down?

Remains to be seen, however I have looked for Mr. Morans knives to trend up in price for some time now and I believe it will happen.

I have every confidence that the early Loveless knives and the ones that someone can prove that Bob actually made. Those prices are going to skyrocket.
I don't know that anyone can tell which knives Bob Loveless actually made with the exception of a period when there was no one else in the shop. I glad that it looks as though there will be a distention between knives made before and after Bob Loveless' death as that will make a difference in my opinion.

Which was one of the reason I was asking the question about the Logo being changed.

Now that I have answered you, perhaps someone who has more experience in Loveless knives will give their opinions.

 

[RogerP]

Seems to me, in one bold swoop, STeven has put this whole subject to bed. The above has certainly answered every question I have had lately about this subject - and some of the players.

Thanks, STeven-

Bob

Amen to that!

Roger

 

[Michael Lovett]

Lovett doesn't make any thing other than Lovelss Designs. Right!

Awarded Best Combat Knife. The last Spirit of Steel Show in Dallas (Grapevine Tx.)

Looks like a Lovett to me.

But then again, Best of Show did go to L. Chow, with his collectoin of Loveless Connection Knives.

[/IMG]

Sorry, for some reason, the pic wouldn't down size. Shows "ALL" the flaws!

Mike

 

[Michael Lovett]

Steve Garson said---1. Jim speaks for himself, Mike Lovett is not speaking for Jim or The Loveless Shop. If he wanted to, he has many ways to communicate, and many people who would do it for him.

So Steven, since it was me instead of the many other people that YOU approve of, it is illegitimate. And why in your exalted opinion is it that if it had been someone else that posted here, it would have been OK. BUT not Lovett.

Interesting how you make the decisions for everyone else here. And have attempted to for years.

You say you were being Nice? Son, you don't know the meaning of the word. I doubt if you ever did. There was nothing nice, or decent what so ever about the things you posted.

You turned something good into something ugly for your own amusement.

You can call it curt, salty, what ever. They are just other words for acting like a spoiled little Prick.
The difference is, unlike the new people here, I won't put up with your antics.
I have no need to.

As far as posting Jim's wanting it posted, my apologies. I was completely unaware It was required,. or even need for Mike Lovett to explain himself or Jim Merritt's to Steven Garson.

There was no reason what so ever for you to question it. Much less to attack the post!

 

[Kohai999]

1. Jim speaks for himself, Mike Lovett is not speaking for Jim or The Loveless Shop. If he wanted to, he has many ways to communicate, and many people who would do it for him.

So Steven, since it was me instead of the many other people that YOU approve of, it is illegitimate. And why in your exalted opinion is it that if it had been someone else that posted here, it would have been OK. BUT not Lovett.

Interesting how you make the decisions for everyone else here. And have attempted to for years.

You say you were being Nice? Son, you don't know the meaning of the word. I doubt if you ever did. There was nothing nice, or decent what so ever about the things you posted.

You turned something good into something ugly for your own amusement.

You can call it curt, salty, what ever. They are just other words for acting like a Prick.
The difference is, unlike the new people here, I won't put up with your antics.
I have no need to .

Mike, what we are seeing now with regards to Loveless is but the tip of the iceberg...there are major, major things happening right now...diversions are troubling, and unnecessary. Anything that can help Jim get The Loveless Shop where he needs it to be is what should be happening, and you ain't helping. Jim thanked me for my concern today, and said that I seemed to have good intentions. Do I not have good intentions for The Loveless Shop?

If someone had been officially speaking for The Loveless Shop, including you, that would have been fine, Mike, but, according to Jim when we spoke today, that was not the case.

I turned something potentially good for Mike Lovett at the expense of The Loveless Shop into something good for The Loveless Shop, exposure, and telling everyone here who might not know how good and honorable Jim Merritt is...that's good, right? Maybe not good for you.

I don't make decisions for other people....but I do have the means to communicate with an awful lot of interesting persons who can put truth to a disputed or contentious claim....and did in this case...by going to The Source.

You are just pissed off because I found out the truth, broadcast it and it stands in contrast to your claims....you think this is being a prick?

You have called me disrespectful, insulting, spoiled and now a prick. I haven't called you one bad name, not even the obvious ones, because I didn't want to focus on you, and instead wanted to focus on the claims, and the truth. The name calling is just silly, but if it helps you get out the hurt and anger, by all means, continue. I also use, too many commas when I write, if that makes you feel better.

I wish you the best, Mike, I really do, but you won't get it making up stories and hating on me, you will get it by making and delivering great knives.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[peterinct]

I wish you the best, Mike, I really do, but you won't get it making up stories and hating on me, you will get it by making and delivering great knives.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

I had basicly little, to no knowledge of the politics behind the Loveless knives/shop other than what I see here, and in other media.

It does seem like following this statement would serve everyones best interest.

From what I know of STeVen, he tells it like he sees it, and Mike undoubtedly makes great knives.

Peter

 

[Michael Lovett]

I'm on the phone continuously with Jim, and you Steven are a Lier!

I just received a forwarded e-mail From Jack Lucarelli, and it is about all that has been going on. You two guy's here are no different than a handful of others trying to put wedges in place.

Luckily, here, you are mostly attacking me. (You started in attacking Jim. Although you now deny it). Many others else where are attacking JIM. (Other than on this form). We're not standing for it.
Not form you, Not Les, or anyone else. PERIOD

Better get it right Steven, especially if you are going to spew it here. I WILL be talking to Jim today!

And no I am not going to keep debating you here. This baiting is childish. If just one word of any of this was any of your damed buisness, it would not tick me off so much.

This is exactly the same kind of crap that got you kicked off another Knife Forum, and got your buddy kicked off here before.

Jim may talk to you in pleasant tones, as that is Jim. He is a fine Gentelman. But dont' kid your self. He is nobodys fool. He knows exactly what is going on out there! And who is doing what!



MIke Lovett

 

[giant1]

Giant:

It starts with the guy who has never even handled a Loveless. But somehow feels qualified to chime in with basically zero knowledge of the subject manner....or am I just being to cynical.

I did not profess to have knowledge of Loveless knives, in fact my lack of knowledge about the knives has nothing to do with what is being discussed here.

Self appointed experts who set themselves up as critics are all the same regardless of what field they choose to inflict themselves in. They all sound the same, they all use the same cliches...........

I have studied such and such for 25 years...

I have seen / handled many many .........

Bla bla bla

Just wondering how many knives you "experts" have actually made?? Lets have a look at them.

 

[RogerP]

Man, what a train wreck.

STeven, those that know you here know that you are no "lier".

I think it's pretty clear who has an agenda here.

Roger

 

[Kohai999]

I'm on the phone continuously with Jim, and you Steven are a Lier!

I just received a forwarded e-mail From Jack Lucarelli, and it is about all that has been going on. You two guy's here are no different than a handful of others trying to put wedges in place.

Luckily, here, you are mostly attacking me. (You started in attacking Jim. Although you now deny it). Many others else where are attacking JIM. (Other than on this form). We're not standing for it.
Not form you, Not Les, or anyone else. PERIOD

Better get it right Steven, especially if you are going to spew it here. I WILL be talking to Jim today!

And no I am not going to keep debating you here. This baiting is childish. If just one word of any of this was any of your damed buisness, it would not tick me off so much.

This is exactly the same kind of crap that got you kicked off another Knife Forum, and got your buddy kicked off here before.

Jim may talk to you in pleasant tones, as that is Jim. He is a fine Gentelman. But dont' kid your self. He is nobodys fool. He knows exactly what is going on out there! And who is doing what!



MIke Lovett

I believe that you were attempting to call me a liar, Mike. I don't lie.

I read that e-mail.....Louis was on the distribution list.

The only forum I got kicked off of was the USN, a long time ago, pretty sure if I wanted to, I could get accepted back there.

Wanting things to be a certain way, and acting as if they are that way does not make them that way, Mike.

My business, as a person and as a collector is the truth, about life and about knives....your business is about the visibility and viability of Lovett Knives....who has the most to gain by appearing to be tightly aligned and speaking for The Loveless Shop?

This has not been a debate....this is the public watching Lovett dig a hole, deeper and deeper....I suggested that you refrain in my very first post, and I would have left it alone....but you had to push.

At the end of the day...the person you should be mad at is yourself.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Les Robertson]

Giant,

Just wondering how many knives you "experts" have actually made?? Lets have a look at them.

I have never made a knife...never made such a claim....knife making is not my area of expertise with regards to custom knives.

I realize there is not much light down in that hole that Mike is digging. But if there is...you might want to check out the bio on my website.

Oh, and try to write the posts before you are drunk.

 

[brownshoe]

This thread dishonors Mr. Loveless, although he probably expected it. Try and save what little face you all have left.

 

[giant1]

Giant,



I have never made a knife...never made such a claim....knife making is not my area of expertise with regards to custom knives.

I realize there is not much light down in that hole that Mike is digging. But if there is...you might want to check out the bio on my website.

Oh, and try to write the posts before you are drunk.

Never made a knife but happy to pull other peoples work down when ever you get the chance eh........