Trespassing

[Shann]

I understand private landowner's feelings (I own land). In the state of Washington it is the law (see game laws, clearly stated) that you are tresspassing and can be arrested and fined if you are on private land and you do not have a WRITTEN permission slip. Where this really comes into a problem is in the private forests around the National forests. We were hunting through Gifford Pinchot National Forest deep in the woods. No signs, no fences, no roads. Came to a paved highway with a policeman on it. It seems the 100 yards (or so) between the road and the National Forest belonged to a large lumber company in ????. No one knew if they cared if we crossed their land. We could leagally walk across the land, but if our guns were loaded, we were hunting and that is tresspassing. If the National Forest had been a private land which we had written permission to hunt then we could NOT walk across the lumber company's land. (Private land can not block access to federal land). We had federal maps, state maps, private maps. None of them showed this private land. If a land owner says OK, but you don't get it in writing, you can and maybe arrested and fined.
We had to talk like crazy and beg to not be taken into coustody. Washington has had several governors whose stated goal was to "do away with hunting". Hence very strong wording in all state hunting laws.
Prime public land (around Mt. St. Helens) that had several thousand deer hunters each year, had just 448 total last year (shot 34 deer). The combination of closing all roads not paved and frustration of the access/trespasing problem has driven the hunter away. A stoppage of logging has also contributed.
Like I said, I am a land owner and I understand our frustrations. I also believe that within not to long a time hunting will be available only for the rich (or moderately weathly) and then there will be too few to defend hunting and the anti-hunters will win. The land I and my frends hunted for twenty years in eastern Washington had the hunting rites bought up by a private hunting group that was actually a business to re-sell the rights. Their quote to me to allow I and my one son to hunt deer, elk, and chuckar for one year on "their lease land" was $9,600.00. I am 60. I am concerned my grandsons will never have the chance to go hunting that I had.
Ron Athay
Vancouver, Wa.

My feelings exactly. It will be soon enough that hunting will be limited to the relatively wealthy, and there will not be enough support to avoid the anti-hunting set to start eroding hunting laws. It doesn't really bother me, since I don't hunt much anymore, but those who are dedicated hunters might be concerned because their children or grandchildren may lost out on a family tradition.

 

[the possum]

The land I and my frends hunted for twenty years in eastern Washington had the hunting rites bought up by a private hunting group that was actually a business to re-sell the rights. Their quote to me to allow I and my one son to hunt deer, elk, and chuckar for one year on "their lease land" was $9,600.00. I am 60. I am concerned my grandsons will never have the chance to go hunting that I had.
Ron Athay

I don't want you take this the wrong way Ron, 'cause I can empathize. But I thought it funny the way you phrased this in the passive voice. The hunting rights just got bought up, like the way the sun rises. Well, that's the sort of thing that can happen when you don't own it yourself. Or, you could have bought the rights or drew up a contract (probably for a heck of a lot less than this group is paying, since you had the relationship built up with the owner) to secure it for your use. I don't know what land prices are like up there, but 'round here, after five years of paying that much a man could already own 20 or 30 acres of prime deer woods for himself.

Now, I know that hunting is a primary reason for lots of folks to own woods. Hunting is a great excuse to get out & enjoy the outdoors, but this isn't really just a hunting forum, so let's not get too wrapped up in that one aspect of the outdoors.
Ron- did the landowner also sell the camping rights? Or the morel mushroom hunting rights? Or the mid-summer-hike-through-the-woods rights? Or the primitive fire building & cordage making rights? Even if you can't hunt the land, you can probably still do 85% of the stuff that's discussed on this forum.

But three years ago somebody ripped up a sculpture I had built up on the hill, it included deer antlers. The antlers were stolen. I was deeply offended.

You've got me curious to hear more about this sculpture. With antlers? I bet it would have made Jeff Foxworthy proud. (heh. just kidding there man.) Seriously, I've been thinking that when I finally do get to own woods someday, I'd have sculptures scattered throughout it.

What if the "tresspasser" is merely walking through, or taking a pleasure walks.

When it comes right down to it, Vivi, it ain't your frikkin' land. Like I've been saying all along, you have absolutely no right to be there, unless by the owner's good graces.

Most times I've tresspassed, this was all I've done, and the tresspassing was unintentional. Usually I can't even find the owners house in the event that I'd want to ask permission.

I'm highly skeptical of this given your earlier comments. You make it sound like you accidentally wandered across the property line, when earlier you said you don't give a damn about 'em. You make it sound like you can't find the owners, when earlier you said you'd avoid making any contact with them (so you could come back later when they were gone?). You said if you saw a house in the woods you'd leave. Have you made one honest real attempt to find a landowner and get permission? You said you "usually" can't find them, so does that mean you have gotten permission from at least a few?

My land is the same as my house. Mine. Respect the boundries of both or expect to suffer the consequences. There is plenty of publicly owned land everywhere for you to play on. Go to the trouble to find it.

Thanks, Codger. I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[beezaur]

Most times I've tresspassed, this was all I've done, and the tresspassing was unintentional. Usually I can't even find the owners house in the event that I'd want to ask permission. . .

Two things:

1) Get a map of the land on which you are obliviously wandering around.

2) You can find the land owners if you go to the same efforts the rest of us do. You are just not making the effort.

Scott

 

[Watchful]

First off, please note that I did not say anything about "citizen's arrest" earlier, that was bulgron.

You're correct, you did not. I apologize.

If ANYONE refuses your directions to leave while on your property without permission, and/or refuses to leave, you can use whatever force necessary to remove/detain.

This is true, but that's not what I thought you meant-- I mistakenly believed you were advocating holding him merely because he was on your property and *then* calling the police. Your statement, which I cite here, does fit in with my reading of the statutes, and so I humbly withdraw my objection.

 

[pricecw]

I understand private landowner's feelings (I own land). In the state of Washington it is the law (see game laws, clearly stated) that you are tresspassing and can be arrested and fined if you are on private land and you do not have a WRITTEN permission slip. Where this really comes into a problem is in the private forests around the National forests. We were hunting through Gifford Pinchot National Forest deep in the woods. No signs, no fences, no roads. Came to a paved highway with a policeman on it. It seems the 100 yards (or so) between the road and the National Forest belonged to a large lumber company in ????. No one knew if they cared if we crossed their land. We could leagally walk across the land, but if our guns were loaded, we were hunting and that is tresspassing. If the National Forest had been a private land which we had written permission to hunt then we could NOT walk across the lumber company's land. (Private land can not block access to federal land). We had federal maps, state maps, private maps. None of them showed this private land. If a land owner says OK, but you don't get it in writing, you can and maybe arrested and fined.
We had to talk like crazy and beg to not be taken into coustody. Washington has had several governors whose stated goal was to "do away with hunting". Hence very strong wording in all state hunting laws.
Prime public land (around Mt. St. Helens) that had several thousand deer hunters each year, had just 448 total last year (shot 34 deer). The combination of closing all roads not paved and frustration of the access/trespasing problem has driven the hunter away. A stoppage of logging has also contributed.
Like I said, I am a land owner and I understand our frustrations. I also believe that within not to long a time hunting will be available only for the rich (or moderately weathly) and then there will be too few to defend hunting and the anti-hunters will win. The land I and my frends hunted for twenty years in eastern Washington had the hunting rites bought up by a private hunting group that was actually a business to re-sell the rights. Their quote to me to allow I and my one son to hunt deer, elk, and chuckar for one year on "their lease land" was $9,600.00. I am 60. I am concerned my grandsons will never have the chance to go hunting that I had.
Ron Athay
Vancouver, Wa.

Nice thing about Idaho, if it isn't posted or fenced and cultivated (not just fenced) then it isn't tresspassing. This prevents the kind of abuses listed above, yet provides for the landowners the ability to protect and preserve their land.

--Carl

 

[pricecw]

Interesting thread....as a landowner myself, I can say there is nothing more frustrating to me than trespassers using my land. That said, I believe my definition of “trespasser” is likely to be more broad than some. Each year I have to deal with a group of individuals that intentionally allow their dogs to run through my farm in order to push the deer through and eventually off my land into a firing line on the opposite end of the property. No, a person never stepped foot on my land (maybe)…..but their dogs certainly did. Dogs used by these “hunters” (I use the term loosely here) to chase the game out of an area that was clearly posted. I spend a lot of time and money caring/cultivating my land to attract and hold deer/turkey. I enjoy hunting and the quiet time with my sons….having trespassers ruin that is unacceptable. The dogs can’t read the posted signs, but the groups that intentionally release dogs into private property can (I hope) and should be considered trespassers as well. Just my two cents…..

Another thing I like about Idaho, you can not chase deer with dogs. It is actually a law that anyone seeing a dog harassing wildlife (deer, elk, etc) may shoot it on sight.

--Carl

 

[pricecw]

What if the "tresspasser" is merely walking through, or taking a pleasure walks. Most times I've tresspassed, this was all I've done, and the tresspassing was unintentional.

Vivi, if the land was posted, it is not un-intentional, if it is in a public forest without any marking, then that is unintentional, and most landowners if encountered would probably not mind.

Usually I can't even find the owners house in the event that I'd want to ask permission. I completely understand wanting to keep vandals out, I'd want to do that even to land I didn't own.

It is generally easy to find landowners, the county has this information and it is available to all.

--Carl

 

[silenthunterstudios]

Another thing I like about Idaho, you can not chase deer with dogs. It is actually a law that anyone seeing a dog harassing wildlife (deer, elk, etc) may shoot it on sight.

--Carl

Well, shooting the dog would cause some retaliatory problems, theoretically, if the instigators are setting their dogs on wild animals. Even though these buffoons are in the wrong initially, every action has a reaction, unfortunately.

 

[pricecw]

Yeah, but I guess what I am saying, is they would be in the wrong here the whole way through. Idaho law makes it clear that dogs don't chase game, and if they do, they can be shot on sight. Any retaliation would be handled as the law allows.

What is good, this law keeps people from even trying to run deer with dogs. Setting dogs on deer on purpose is also considered poaching here, so that would be another strike against an instigator. Both bear and cougar are allowed to be run with dogs.

--Carl

 

[Coldwood]

Vivi, you need better friends.

 

[Vivi]

They're decent people...they just have a lot of ignorance to work through. No different than me and most everyone else really.

I'm highly skeptical of this given your earlier comments. You make it sound like you accidentally wandered across the property line, when earlier you said you don't give a damn about 'em. You make it sound like you can't find the owners, when earlier you said you'd avoid making any contact with them (so you could come back later when they were gone?). You said if you saw a house in the woods you'd leave. Have you made one honest real attempt to find a landowner and get permission? You said you "usually" can't find them, so does that mean you have gotten permission from at least a few?

The place I go to most frequently has a farm on one end. I asked the person there if the woods behind the farm were his and he said he didn't know who's they were. He asked me if I could stay off his farm though, I agreed and that was it. Other places I go I've been unable to find any houses that look like they would belong to the owner. I keep an eye out for that, at first visits just to avoid them. If I keep going back to the area then I make an effort to find the owner and ask. I never vandalize on these walks, just walk around, take in the sights and the smells and study things.

Normally I'm fairly avoidant of people in general, one of the reasons I like the woods. If I see a house that looks like it's clearly the owner of the land I on, I generally just walk away and don't go back to that place. I look for more inconspicuous places to be. No, I don't believe very strongly at all in the concept of land ownership, but like I said before out of respect for these people I try not to cause trouble. I do give a damn, it's through the respect and courtesy I feel obliged to extend to these folks who haven't done a thing to me that I give it. However, as a general rule I like to stay on areas where no personal ownership has fallen.

 

[Codger_64]

However, as a general rule I like to stay on areas where no personal ownership has fallen.


Every square foot of land in the continental U.S. is owned by someone. There are no unclaimed acres.

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/wildlife/Hunting/wildlifeareas/wildare.htm

National Park
Cuyahoga Valley National Park

Army Corps of Engineers
Belleville Locks and Dam (Army Corps)
Caesar Creek Dam at Caesar Creek State Park, Warren, Clinton, and Greene Counties
Tom Jenkins Dam (Army Corps; at Burr Oak State Park)

Other Federal Land
Hopewell Culture National Historical Park
Wayne National Forest
Ottawa National Wildlife Refuge Complex
Cedar Point National Wildlife Refuge
Ottawa National Wildlife Refuge
West Sister Island National Wildlife Refuge

State Parks
A. W. Marion State Park
Adams Lake State Park
Alum Creek State Park
Barkcamp State Park
Beaver Creek State Park
Blue Rock State Park - 337 acres, Muskingum County
Buck Creek State Park
Buckeye Lake State Park
Burr Oak State Park - 2593 acres (11 km²), Athens and Morgan Counties
Caesar Creek State Park - 7941 acres (32 km²), Warren, Clinton, and Greene Counties
Catawba Island State Park
Cleveland Lakefront State Park
Cowan Lake State Park - 1775 acres, Clinton County
Crane Creek State Park
Deer Creek State Park
Delaware State Park
Dillon State Park
East Fork State Park
East Harbor State Park
Findley State Park
Forked Run State Park
Geneva State Park
Grand Lake St. Marys State Park
Great Seal State Park
Guilford Lake State Park
Harrison Lake State Park
Headlands Beach State Park
Hocking Hills State Park - 2373 acres, Hocking County
Hueston Woods State Park - 3596 acres (15 km²), Butler and Preble Counties
Independence Dam State Park
Indian Lake State Park
Jackson Lake State Park
Jefferson Lake State Park
John Bryan State Park
Kelleys Island State Park - 677 acres, Erie County
Kiser Lake State Park
Lake Alma State Park
Lake Hope State Park
Lake Logan State Park
Lake Loramie State Park
Lake White State Park
Little Miami State Park - 707 acres (2.9 km²), Hamilton, Clermont, Warren, and Greene Counties
Madison Lake State Park
Malabar Farm State Park
Mary Jane Thurston State Park
Maumee Bay State Park
Mohican State Park
Mosquito Lake State Park
Mount Gilead State Park
Nelson Kennedy Ledges State Park
Oak Point State Park
Paint Creek State Park
Pike Lake State Park
Portage Lakes State Park
Punderson State Park
Pymatuning State Park
Quail Hollow State Park
Rocky Fork State Park
Salt Fork State Park
Scioto Trail State Park
Shawnee State Park
South Bass Island State Park
Stonelick State Park
Strouds Run State Park - 2606 acres (11 km²), in Athens County
Sycamore State Park
Tar Hollow State Park
Tinkers Creek State Park
Van Buren State Park
West Branch State Park
Wolf Run State Park

State Forests
Main article: List of Ohio state forests
Blue Rock State Forest - 4,572 acres (19 km²)
Brush Creek State Forest - ca. 12,000 acres (49 km²)
Dean State Forest - 2,745 acres (10 km²)
Fernwood State Forest - 2,107 acres (9 km²)
Gifford State Forest - 320 acres (1.3 km²)
Harrison State Forest - 1,345 acres (5 km&sup2)
Hocking State Forest - 9,374 acres (38 km²)
Maumee State Forest - 3,068 acres (12 km²)
Mohican-Memorial State Forest - 4,192 acres (17 km²)
Perry State Forest - 4,567 acres (18 km²)
Pike State Forest - 11,621 acres (47 km²)
Richland Furnace State Forest - 2,343 acres (9 km²)
Scioto Trail State Forest - 9,371 acres (38 km²)
Shade River State Forest - 2,601 acres (11 km²)
Shawnee State Forest - 59,603 acres (241 km²)
Sunfish Creek State Forest - 637 acres (2.6 km²)
Tar Hollow State Forest - 16,126 acres (65 km²)
Waterloo State Forest (administered by Zaleski State Forest); Athens County
Yellow Creek State Forest - 756 acres (3.1 km²)
Zaleski State Forest - 26,313 acres (107 km²); Athens, Vinton, Perry Counties

State Wildlife Management Areas
Acadia Cliffs Wildlife Area
Fox Lake Wildlife Management Area
Sunday Creek Wildlife Management Area
Waterloo Wildlife Experimentation Station

State Nature Preserves
Conkles Hollow State Nature Preserve
Marie J. Desonier State Nature Preserve
Johnson Woods State Nature Preserve - Wayne County
Lake Katharine State Nature Preserve
Riddle State Nature Preserve
Rockbridge State Nature Preserve

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/parks/

 

[beezaur]

Other places I go I've been unable to find any houses that look like they would belong to the owner. . . . I make an effort to find the owner and ask. . .

Often times you can find ownership info on your local county's web site. Most times maps are available for free download that have aerial photo overlays with property lines and tax parcel numbers. Otherwise you can go to the applicable county department and get maps at the desk for a small fee.

I haven't been to the county desk looking for maps since mine went online, but it used to be that this time of year (before hunting season) there would be lots of guys stopping in getting land owner information, so they could go and ask.

Remember too, that the only alternative to private ownership is government ownership. You don't want government ownership.

Scott

P.S. OT, but in my state (WA) the State owns the rain. You have to have a water right to collect rain water for any significant use except stock watering. Getting a water right in my area takes around 10 years. Otherwise you are stealing "waters of the State," and they WILL shut you down. Repeat after me: "Government ownership is bad."

 

[shotgunner11]

A few of the land owners in my area have taken to posting a phone # on their signs, making it much simpler to request passage rights.

Last summer, while out and about I found a small brush fire that was right at the edge of a stand of pines grown for Christmas trees. The fire was much bigger than I could handle so I contacted the owner of the property via the number posted on his no tresspassing sign. He was more then pleased, telling me it was over 20 grand in trees, he gave me a voucher for a few free trees that Christmas and rights to use the property any time I wish.

 

[Codger_64]

That's how to make it work!! A man walking by my property sees a cow out ($2500) with her calf ($250) and either herds them back thru the break in the fence and tells me about it, or fixes the gate SOMEONE LEFT OPEN. I have a new friend whom I can trust on my property. Sure, you can hunt here. Just let me know when so we don't ruin each other's hunt. Now, this is not an open invitation to move in, nor to bring a dozen buddies. Bring your son, daughter, nephew, the neighbor's kid? Sure! Don't forget to offer the owner your game. I almost always politely refuse, but it is the offer that counts. It is like "Thanks for the use of your land, here...have a compensation for your generosity".

Codger

 

[Thomas Linton]

I don't really believe in the concept of owning land. I think it's pretty ridiculous as a whole, though it does serve a multitude of practical purposes in modern society.

There are 650,000,000 acres of federal public land alone in the U.S. - about 29.5% of the lotal land area of the U.S. There are millions of acres of state and local public land. That seems an adequate range for outdoor activities.

The logical consequence of rejecting the concept of ownership of real property is that anyone can have any right in any land that they can take by stealth or by force.

And why stop at real property? If the most protected form of property is open to use by anyone who can, why not your car? Or is it "your" car at all? Especially if it is "not being used at all"?

Our law, and the law from which it sprung, has held for centuries that the notion of land ownership is not "ridiculous" but, instead, is fundamental to the social order. It is the only form of property whose loss, if taken unlawfully, can be corrected only by restoration of possession to the lawful owner.

The consequence of intentional trespass is supposed to be jail or a stiff fine. Jails are nasty places. They smell bad. They are full of some very rough folks -- in uniform and otherwise. Not "silly" at al

Ed: Add Ohio State Hunting Lands to above listl.

 

[the possum]

Vivi-
I realize I have come across a bit harsh with you. I will admit I can feel my blood pressure rise when I read some of your philosophies on this subject, having been at the recieving end of those beliefs numerous times. You seem like you want to do right. But make no mistake that what you're doing isn't except in your own mind. Let us look past that for now. At the top of page 3, I posted how you can find landowners in your area & get ahold of them. The back of a plat book has an index where you can look up the name, and in some versions even the phone number of the owner. You might be able to find a free copy online, or invest the $15 and a couple hours to track one down. You will then be armed with a wealth of information about the woods in your area. Have you ever played around with Google Earth? Aside from being super neat, you can use it to easily find more woods in your area that also have other desireable attributes, such as a creek or interesting land features. Then cross reference the pictures with your plat book to find the owner.

I don't know what your travel situation is like. If you are limited to stuff within walking distance, you might be able to find something on Google Earth that you'd never noticed before. But if you can't find anything, well, maybe that's just your lot in life for the time being. Lord knows I would love to have enough money to pay the bills, or own a decent house, but I don't. I don't feel like I have the right to somebody else's hard earned things regardless.

If you make it a goal, and finally reach it after years of dreaming, your perspective might change as well.

FWIW, I believe there are still places in Alaska where you can go build a cabin and just claim 40 acres of land. That's another dream of mine, but will probably never be realized now that I have a family that comes first.

 

[Vivi]

There are 650,000,000 acres of federal public land alone in the U.S. - about 29.5% of the lotal land area of the U.S. There are millions of acres of state and local public land. That seems an adequate range for outdoor activities.

The logical consequence of rejecting the concept of ownership of real property is that anyone can have any right in any land that they can take by stealth or by force.

And why stop at real property? If the most protected form of property is open to use by anyone who can, why not your car? Or is it "your" car at all? Especially if it is "not being used at all"?

Our law, and the law from which it sprung, has held for centuries that the notion of land ownership is not "ridiculous" but, instead, is fundamental to the social order. It is the only form of property whose loss, if taken unlawfully, can be corrected only by restoration of possession to the lawful owner.

The consequence of intentional trespass is supposed to be jail or a stiff fine. Jails are nasty places. They smell bad. They are full of some very rough folks -- in uniform and otherwise. Not "silly" at al

Ed: Add Ohio State Hunting Lands to above listl.

No, what's silly is you and others who are reading what I posted and going on your rants, while ignoring the part about "But despite my beliefs I try to respect peoples claims to the land." No, I don't accept the concept of land ownership the way you guys do, but that doesn't mean I walk around tossing beer cans in peoples private woods, burning down their trees or invading their homes. No need to paint such "silly" pictures about what I said, it has no relation to reality. The story about the man who called the owner during the fire, or the scenario of helping heard loose cattle back to the pens...that's the type of person I am. Not the vandals running around wreaking havoc on the environment. My feelings stem largely from my protective feelings over the earth, so why draw such a conclusion anyways. Furthermore, I distinctly pointed out the this concept I disagree with serves a multitude of practical purposes in modern society.

Codger, thanks for the links and the lists. I'll make an effort to check those out, especially the larger ones. I just don't like a lot of things about state parks. Other people, pay to get in, the sound of cars / radios / TV's / people drinking / pets, often restrictions on things like fire or collecting plant / animal samples etc. I'm more the go out alone in the middle of nowhere with no one to bother me and no rules but my own to follow type, which is why I've kind of been avoidant of the State Parks for the past few years. A lot of the ones I've been to get angry if you make a shelter and sleep in the woods and someone finds you, saying you can only stay at approved camp sites and such.

Possum, it's alright. The fact that you can type in a civil manner to me right now is plenty. I do what you say, check on Google Earth for patches of woods. I've found a couple. Most of them are just areas near businesses or neighborhoods that haven't been developed yet. I have no idea who owns them, but it's not so much a priority of mine as is just going there and enjoying the experience before another strip mall is built. Maybe it's a little self-centered, but I have a hard time feeling like walking around looking at flowers and spiders is criminal activity, especially when I see all the litter other citizens leave out. *Shrug*

I'll post some images of places I've found in a minute.

 

[SkunkWerX]

Quick story:

I was taking a quick ride on my ATV, when I rounded a corner on the trail and almost had a head-on collision with a woman on a horse.
I stopped, shut down the ATV, and the first thing out of my mouth was an apology to the woman, as typically, I would never run an ATV up on someone on horseback, as it could spook the horse and seriously injure the rider.
Never seen this woman in my life. never seen the horse, either.

This woman proceeded to lecture me about ATVs and motorcycles, and basically read me the Riot Act. In her mind Horses had the Right of Way!

I was starting to get mad at her, but kept my cool. After a couple of minutes she was finished, proud that she had put me in my place.

I , however did get the last word.

"Ma'am", I said, "There is one slight problem with the lecture you just gave me."

In a surly (bitchy) tone she said, "What would THAT be?"

I said, "Well, for starters you are riding your horse on my property."
"And furthermore, if you EVER want to ride your horse on my property, I expect one simple thing from you, just come to the house and ask permission."

"It's not that I am THAT protective of the property, but, it will prevent me or my son from RUNNING YOUR ASS OVER if we know you are out here!"

My point is simple, I agree with RunningBoar, just give the landowner a little bit of respect. It is THEIR land. In most cases, we don't mind people enjoying it, just give us the respect to ask. Typically, if you have enough manners to ask, the answer is usually going to be "yes, go ahead".

All of the adjoining land owners traverse each others property, and so do their kids, because we know each of us is going to respect their land just like we do our own. it's no biggie, not until someone thinks they have a RIGHT to be on MY PROPERTY. That's when I get a bit ticked off.

Trash, that will really piss me off.
Wheter it's thrown from a car to the side of the road/propery, or someone wandering through throws a Mtn Dew can out in the woods.

A little respect, that's all.

 

[shotgunner11]

Vivi, I can see things from your point of view and I doubt anyone thinks you to be a vandal but you need to think about it from a land owners point of view. If you own this patch of woods, regardless of your willingness to share it with others, most people just dont have your best intentions in mind.

If a person asks to use your property, and you grant them that right, they now know that you know who they are and, in most cases, that would be enough to put them on their best behavior. "If I throw this can in the woods and Mr. Jenkins knows That I was out here, he may know I did it."

I get the impression that your feelings toward land ownership come out of the Native American way of thinking, that there is no use in owning anything. The thing that the modern world lacks that made that system work was respect, for the earth and for fellow man. Not everyone has your good intentions.