Shotgunner, you're right on. The lack of respect abroad has brought up the need for many, many laws we otherwise wouldn't have. A good example is the current trend of PC nonsense. If women were truely given the respect they deserve, I really don't think they'd be bitching about mailman vs. mailperson or whatever it was replaced with.
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Trespassing
- Thread starter the possum
- Start date
To the Possum,
The hunting rights were bought up over a period of a couple of years by a VERY well funded commercial group. No private person of normal means could compete. They started selling rights the first year at $800 per gun per species. I know. My business partner bought in (for one year). About 10 years ago it was at $1,600 per gun per species. I really do not know what it is now. I do still see them in their booth at each years big sportsman show in Portland. Last time I was in their area I drove past 60 miles of their signs (continuous) covering every farm in site. There is a reason that Washington now sells less than half as many hunting licenses as they did 20 years ago and that none of my old hunting budies hunt anymore. NO WHERE TO GO.
Let me say that I do not think tresspassing is the answer. I understand that several western states (Montana for one) are now paying farmers to allow hunters on their land (with a sign in system I think).
Land owners own their land and work very hard to maintain that land.
But a solution must be found. In one or the nearby counties, the land owners association has voted to not allow anyone on any of their land for any reason at any time. This includes some prime steelhead river frontage and some of the best bird and deer hunting land. They had good reason to do it. One member told me he hauled out two pickup loads of garbage left by a group of hunters who had written permission to be on his land. As I said before, I see both sides.
Ron Athay
The hunting rights were bought up over a period of a couple of years by a VERY well funded commercial group. No private person of normal means could compete. They started selling rights the first year at $800 per gun per species. I know. My business partner bought in (for one year). About 10 years ago it was at $1,600 per gun per species. I really do not know what it is now. I do still see them in their booth at each years big sportsman show in Portland. Last time I was in their area I drove past 60 miles of their signs (continuous) covering every farm in site. There is a reason that Washington now sells less than half as many hunting licenses as they did 20 years ago and that none of my old hunting budies hunt anymore. NO WHERE TO GO.
Let me say that I do not think tresspassing is the answer. I understand that several western states (Montana for one) are now paying farmers to allow hunters on their land (with a sign in system I think).
Land owners own their land and work very hard to maintain that land.
But a solution must be found. In one or the nearby counties, the land owners association has voted to not allow anyone on any of their land for any reason at any time. This includes some prime steelhead river frontage and some of the best bird and deer hunting land. They had good reason to do it. One member told me he hauled out two pickup loads of garbage left by a group of hunters who had written permission to be on his land. As I said before, I see both sides.
Ron Athay
Wow,
After writing my last Rant, I just learned that the Private campground on the Yakima River that we have used as a base for fishing and bird hunting for 20 years (at $50/night per tent) and were heading to next weekend, is no longer allowing tents. Their entire camping area has been reserved for the whole season by a group of professional guides. This campground is the only access to the river for some distance. Their statement to us was that they intended to cater to a higher end clientel and to keep the "rift raft" off the river (their words).
Oh well, The battle goes on.
Ron Athay
After writing my last Rant, I just learned that the Private campground on the Yakima River that we have used as a base for fishing and bird hunting for 20 years (at $50/night per tent) and were heading to next weekend, is no longer allowing tents. Their entire camping area has been reserved for the whole season by a group of professional guides. This campground is the only access to the river for some distance. Their statement to us was that they intended to cater to a higher end clientel and to keep the "rift raft" off the river (their words).
Oh well, The battle goes on.
Ron Athay
Codger_64
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When I was a child in the early '50's, my family went each summer to a private campground on Sylamore Creek in the Ozarks. Blanchard Springs Campground was owned and run by two brothers, consisted of five or six rustic log cabins (WPA style), a commisary, an archery range, and a small riding stable. There were primitive campsites, and of course, the creek - the campground was located in a bend in the creek that formed a large pool, a perfect swimming hole. My Dad showed me a strange hole in the ground nearby that always blew chilled air from it's mouth. FUrther up a branch to the creek was the ruined foundation to an ancient grist mill, and further upstream was a blue pool, the water pouring from a sinister cave. I spent many hours of my childhood in this area, learned to swim, saw my first archery, enjoyed wading the clear creeks for crawdads and minnows, and fishing above the mill dam. This is Blanchard Springs Caverns now, owned by the State. They developed it into a tourist attraction with elevators going down into the caves, miles of lighted concrete walkways. There is some primitive camping allowed, and they built a modern bath house on what was a graveled beach at the pool. Maybe it is better now, maybe not.
The issue of riparian rights is a whole other tarbaby. This battle was fought long and hard in Arkansas for many years. Landowners strung strands of barbed wire across floatable creeks, closed ancient access roads to fords, threatened passing canoists with words and sometimes guns. Finally the courts settled the issue more or less. The flowing waters of the State belong to the State. The "State" being the citizens. People had a right to use the waters of the state without hinderence, though not the right to tresspass private property bordering the waters. The normal high water mark was decided as the boundry of the river, creek, stream. This law went back to a more basic and older law, the Navigable Waterways law. It had to be redefined, because the old law was written to secure transportation for commerce. It didn't include recreational use. The term "Navagable" had to be redefined, each waterway examined and classified. Then either the State purchased access to the rivers, streams, creeks through parks, or the wildlife agency bought and developed them to give people access to their waters. Some of the smaller streams are still under contention I believe, because they are seasonal, and when running only provide marginally navagable water, used mostly by "hairboaters", dedicated kayakers who always look for the most outlandish streams to test themselves and their equipment. State ownership of land and waterways can be a good thing, preserving it and providing controlled access for recreational use, usually, but not always without a fee.
Codger
The issue of riparian rights is a whole other tarbaby. This battle was fought long and hard in Arkansas for many years. Landowners strung strands of barbed wire across floatable creeks, closed ancient access roads to fords, threatened passing canoists with words and sometimes guns. Finally the courts settled the issue more or less. The flowing waters of the State belong to the State. The "State" being the citizens. People had a right to use the waters of the state without hinderence, though not the right to tresspass private property bordering the waters. The normal high water mark was decided as the boundry of the river, creek, stream. This law went back to a more basic and older law, the Navigable Waterways law. It had to be redefined, because the old law was written to secure transportation for commerce. It didn't include recreational use. The term "Navagable" had to be redefined, each waterway examined and classified. Then either the State purchased access to the rivers, streams, creeks through parks, or the wildlife agency bought and developed them to give people access to their waters. Some of the smaller streams are still under contention I believe, because they are seasonal, and when running only provide marginally navagable water, used mostly by "hairboaters", dedicated kayakers who always look for the most outlandish streams to test themselves and their equipment. State ownership of land and waterways can be a good thing, preserving it and providing controlled access for recreational use, usually, but not always without a fee.
Codger
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I lost my tree stand and woods to development last year . This year I hear they are going to wipe out my archery range and about fifty acres of woods .
The only solution might be to get your own land . I hope there is some left when I can do it .
The only solution might be to get your own land . I hope there is some left when I can do it .
Codger_64
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Canada has 9,220,970 square kilometers of land. True, they aren't making any more of it, but it is not being consumed like a log in a fire, just used by people for one thing or another. Yes, some is being altered, but the chances are, you, your family and friends are one of the reasons the malls and parking lots, the houses are being built. Without a market (i.e. a profit to be made by those footing the bill), development can't take place.
Codger (stir, stir, stir)
I hear that. I have wanted to buy some woodland for a long time now. But with a family, mortgage, etc., I just haven't been able to afford it. The problem is, will there be any I can ever afford to buy?
They aren't making any more land these days.
Trespassing sucks, period. That's why there is a legal term for itI can see it being done without permission in the case of emergency but that's the exception. My dad's property has a 4 acre pond that borders railroad and his concern was that some trespasser would fall in and drown and the idiots family would file a lawsuit. That's what the signs are for because they don't really keep a**holes off your property.
And another thing...is it really your property if, even when there is no lien and you fail to pay the taxes, it can be taken for a sheriff's sale? We are lead to believe we own it but we really don't. We are just paying the state to take care of it.
And about the UK trespassing deal....you can walk thru anothers personal property in the UK and it is not considered trespassing.
I'm pretty sure thats not true except in scotland where you can camp with a small fire without asking permission(I’m not 100% sure about this not living in Scotland).I largely agree with vivi's posts in this thread I think it would be great if the rest of the uk adopted the same laws scotland has.I find the analogy that camping on someone’s land is akin to having people camp in your back garden crazy they are totally different.
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The township where I grew up in PA tried to resolve this issue. They were anti-hunting and decided that no hunter could hunt on private land unless they had obtained the proper forms and gotten written permission. You had to get the form from either the township or the landowner, have them sign it and then you had to give the landowner a copy, keep a copy with your liscense, and file a third copy with the local PD.
The farm where I hunted would only sign for hunters who pithced in and helped him on the farm when it was time to bring in the hay. It was actually a lot of fun, we'd all head down there and put up a few wagonloads. This alone served to keep out the slobs and riff-raff.
A lawyer (also a hunter) moved in and promptly told the township they were in violation of State law to restrict hunting like that. He was absolutely right. The township couldn't enact hunting laws any more than they could raise or lower the legal drinking age. Anywhere it was legal to hunt within the township according to state law it was legal and they couldn't make it more restrictive. Any landowner gould give or deny permission as he saw fit without involving the township. Personally I was glad to see that go.
The farm work continued right up until the farm burned down and was sold for development. Mac
The farm where I hunted would only sign for hunters who pithced in and helped him on the farm when it was time to bring in the hay. It was actually a lot of fun, we'd all head down there and put up a few wagonloads. This alone served to keep out the slobs and riff-raff.
A lawyer (also a hunter) moved in and promptly told the township they were in violation of State law to restrict hunting like that. He was absolutely right. The township couldn't enact hunting laws any more than they could raise or lower the legal drinking age. Anywhere it was legal to hunt within the township according to state law it was legal and they couldn't make it more restrictive. Any landowner gould give or deny permission as he saw fit without involving the township. Personally I was glad to see that go.
The farm work continued right up until the farm burned down and was sold for development. Mac
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Possum, regarding the sculpture: It was a simple affair, put up next to a spot where I had a pop-up tent and a campfire. On my property. My wife and I liked to camp there on a summer's night, sometimes I went by myself.
It was a cedar post, like a small totem pole, decorated with a variety of found objects and crowned with a nice rack of deer antlers that I found at a yardsale.
I found it knocked over. Somebody saw the antlers and decided to take them home for a trophy. Considering where I live, I think it was somebody local. I'm really pissed about that.
This was off the road and out of sight. I don't care if somebody is an art critic and didn't like the look of what I had made. But this was vandalism.
Time was you could leave anything in the woods, like a chainsaw or an axe or a tent, and expect to find it there the next day. We can't do that anymore. I live in a conservative rural area where we like to think we can trust our neighbors, but now we are more and more watching our own backs. It's too bad. I've started to carry a hand gun when I go walking the dog up there.
It was a cedar post, like a small totem pole, decorated with a variety of found objects and crowned with a nice rack of deer antlers that I found at a yardsale.
I found it knocked over. Somebody saw the antlers and decided to take them home for a trophy. Considering where I live, I think it was somebody local. I'm really pissed about that.
This was off the road and out of sight. I don't care if somebody is an art critic and didn't like the look of what I had made. But this was vandalism.
Time was you could leave anything in the woods, like a chainsaw or an axe or a tent, and expect to find it there the next day. We can't do that anymore. I live in a conservative rural area where we like to think we can trust our neighbors, but now we are more and more watching our own backs. It's too bad. I've started to carry a hand gun when I go walking the dog up there.
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What pi$$e$ me off is when a landowner blocks access across his private land to the public land behind it. This is very common in the west. Along the railroad, every other section is private, with public land occurring like a chekerboard for 20 miles on either side of the tracks. Other times private land occurs at the foot of a mountain or along a creek. Even the US Forest Service or BLM may not have access across to their public land to the public land behind. If you own some strategically placed private land, you can legally keep the public off of public land. This is great for ranchers who have their own outfitting business and millionaires who want their own private playground.
Pack Rat
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My, My, I will admit that I just ran across this tresspassing thing and after the first couple of pages I just started scanning.
One thing I didn't see, is the suggestion that you simply get online and bring up the Tresspassing laws of the state you are planning on doing this tresspassing in. And Friends, be very observant about tresspass laws for Texas. Don't cross any fence of any kind, specially with a firearm. and you best have a good reason. How many of you know that a vertical purple stripe painted on anythng means no tresspassing? Like I said...best study the laws.
There seems to be some that think it is ok to tresspass on my land. Well let me tell ya this. I ALWAYS carry ( and if you don't know what that means you best the hell not tresspass) when I am out on my property.
I frequently will take a position and acquire a target and fire away simply for confidence building of my abilities. Should one of you IDIOT tresspassers just happen to step out at a wrong moment you are dead. Simple as that. And all the county sheriff is going to say is "shit happens".
Tresspass laws are explicite...Thousands of dollars in fines and confisation of equiptment, and you will loose any guns or other weapons you have on you.
Another thing to all of this....... If you are teaching your children to follow in your footsteps, and it be one of them that steps out from behind a boulder just as I fire..... I hope you live with that untill you rot in Hell.
People,,,,,,Right, Wrong, or indifferent, there are laws to all of this, so you best be learning them that apply to you and where you are. Personal feelings won't stand up in court.
One thing I didn't see, is the suggestion that you simply get online and bring up the Tresspassing laws of the state you are planning on doing this tresspassing in. And Friends, be very observant about tresspass laws for Texas. Don't cross any fence of any kind, specially with a firearm. and you best have a good reason. How many of you know that a vertical purple stripe painted on anythng means no tresspassing? Like I said...best study the laws.
There seems to be some that think it is ok to tresspass on my land. Well let me tell ya this. I ALWAYS carry ( and if you don't know what that means you best the hell not tresspass) when I am out on my property.
I frequently will take a position and acquire a target and fire away simply for confidence building of my abilities. Should one of you IDIOT tresspassers just happen to step out at a wrong moment you are dead. Simple as that. And all the county sheriff is going to say is "shit happens".
Tresspass laws are explicite...Thousands of dollars in fines and confisation of equiptment, and you will loose any guns or other weapons you have on you.
Another thing to all of this....... If you are teaching your children to follow in your footsteps, and it be one of them that steps out from behind a boulder just as I fire..... I hope you live with that untill you rot in Hell.
People,,,,,,Right, Wrong, or indifferent, there are laws to all of this, so you best be learning them that apply to you and where you are. Personal feelings won't stand up in court.
What is it that bothers folks most about tresspassing?
Is it people who are DOING damage or folks BEING there?
I think its rude to walk over somone elses land without permission, but i dont think that, unless your damaging somthing, its a really malicious 'crime'.
Sadly most folks live in citys nowdays and dont have a good idea of how to behabe in the countryside. I get the feeling that a few people doing dumb stuff like hunting without permission and wrecking fences create a bad climate for more careful folks.
Is it people who are DOING damage or folks BEING there?
I think its rude to walk over somone elses land without permission, but i dont think that, unless your damaging somthing, its a really malicious 'crime'.
Sadly most folks live in citys nowdays and dont have a good idea of how to behabe in the countryside. I get the feeling that a few people doing dumb stuff like hunting without permission and wrecking fences create a bad climate for more careful folks.
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Codger stir all you want . It stops us from becoming sedentary or sedimentary in my case . L:O:L
It is not the first time I have thought of the great white north,s crown lands .
Unfortunately I think limiting my use of a cities resources to a bare minimum is the best I will achieve . I still think it is a good goal .
It is not the first time I have thought of the great white north,s crown lands .
Unfortunately I think limiting my use of a cities resources to a bare minimum is the best I will achieve . I still think it is a good goal .
Pack Rat
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For me it is a huge safety issue because I don't know you are there. We have very strict rules on our place about knowing where every one is at all times. If all the Grandkids are out romping around, there best be no shooting going on at all....
When hunting becomes somthing for 'Rich" folks its on a slippery slope towards being restricted and banned by people who know little or nothing about it.
Fox hunting in England was stopped because city folks thought it was mean... the fact that it was seen as a pastime of the wealthy didnt help it.
This happens alot of times due to abuses of the land. Yes, some do it to lock up the land, but other times, it is just because of the damage done to the land.
Where my land is, we have gated and posted the land. This is due to vandalism and other destruction and theft of stuff off the land. Behind all of our land is BLM, behind that, national forest. There are other ways to the BLM/Forest, but none of them convienent. But, with the theft and vandalism that has happened, none of us would open our land again.
--Carl
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I used to go shoot in an old gravel pit, it was a perfect place to shoot because you were down in a huge hole and had dirt all around, the pit was on BLM land but you had to cross private land to get to it. I was always very careful to pick up my trash, and other peoples, even going so far as to pick up my brass. In spite of my best efforts the landowner closed the road because of shot up old computers, washing machines, broken glass, and people just dumping garbage. It was a shame but I totally understood why the landowner blocked access and I do not blame him, I would have done the same thing. Chris