ultimate hard use / abuse knife

[frc505]

Id go custom for that kind of cash !
Scott gossman,daniel fairley,ryan w,
Big chris, and others make some nice
Blades for under 500 ! Heck id get a
Esee junglas for under 200 then get
One of the above knifemakers to
Make me a custom with the reminding
300 !

Frank

 

[Bill1170]

I am confused about what size knife the OP wants. In his first post he states "10" OAL" and that means OverAll Length, including the handle. Yet many have been offering up knives with 10" blades, not counting the handle.

Which is it?

 

[upnorth]

You need a Becker, when out in the woods shakin yer p....r.

 

[hardheart]

I was going to have some infi charpy tested by sectioning the tang of a knife, but Moletta or someone else associated seems to have already done it. I think it was about 160 J, but I don't know if that is unnotched, or c/v notched. Either way, it isn't all that high. And if 52100 has better wear characteristics with only 1% chromium, then I don't know where any claims of superiority come from. Just get any thick piece of stel that you can sharpen on one side. That's what this class of knives is, and the resistance to lateral forces and impact is dominated by the dimensions, not the alloy.

 

[kdstrick]

Lost in all this talk is the importance of heat treatment. ANY steel can be good... or horrible. A multi-day heat treatment protocol seems to be the key to unlocking a steel's true potential. It is interesting to me that these topics all tend to turn into 'X steel is better than Y steel'... with little discussion of heat treatment.

As for "hard use" knives, I choose either INFI or 3V because I have used and abused both and been very impressed with the toughness and edge retention. The difference between the two is negligible in performance. Although infi is less stain resistant. 3V might have a slight advantage in edge retention.

The "sharpened pry bar" argument is only made by the ignorant, the envious and those too lazy to research the facts. Both 3v and infi are available thin or thick, just as any other knife steel...and demonstrate the same properties regardless of thickness given the same heat-treat. Obviously thicker is stronger and generally makes for a superior chopping knife due to the mass and inertia.

I've field tested many knives of various steels and I AM a fan boy of ALL knives that work well.


But that being said, guys like Ed Fowler, Jerry Busse, Koster and Fehrman could probably make a beer can outcut most factory blades.


.

 

[The Mastiff]

The "sharpened pry bar" argument is only made by the ignorant, the envious and those too lazy to research the facts.

What's a sharpened pry bar argument? What facts are there to research and how is it done, and by whom? You have me curious.

A multi-day heat treatment protocol seems to be the key to unlocking a steel's true potential

Have you heat treated many knives? What steels, and what equipment do you use to unlock their potential? I can think of a few steels that need treatments that could be/need to be done over long periods of time but not all need or would benefit from it, especially at the thickness typically used in cutlery. I could get more specific about steels and types of ovens, both small home use and large commercial types but this would be the wrong forum for that.

Busse's claim to their heat treat and the time it takes to complete is pretty vague and could be looked at as more marketing because it doesn't say much.

By the way I prefer knives for cutting, axes and mauls for chopping, and pry bars and various types of hooligan tools and wrecking bars for most other stuff. I do have a tool made of S7 that has an axe blade, as well as various wrenches sized for doing things like opening hydrants and such.

The thickest knife I have is made of .34 inch stock ( S7) and I have yet to find a practical use for it. Many of my knives are in the 1/8th inch range and savagely sharp. The thickest I'll carry is .25, though most are thinner. I believe my Koster's are a bit over .20 inch ( 3V). Very nice work! Strong, not too heavy, slices well. It comes close to the do it all type knife I've learned to like in my old age. Ferhman's are very nice too. Busse are nice but the hype, like cold steel, sort of ruins it for me. I have a dislike for people that rename perfectly good, top shelf steels for marketing purposes. It makes me distrust them, as well as a few more feelings not appropriate here. The knives are very well built though, no denying that.

Joe

 

[jdk1]

This has been an entertaining thread. I was having the discussion of what constitutes a "survival knife" yesterday with a buddy. To us, and in our locale, we decided it needed certain characteristics. Mainly my buddy had it figured out already and I agreed. For woods use it's uses are: food prep/skinning, cutting various things like rope/cloth, wood prep (which to US means chopping/splitting/scraping/notching/etc. It also must handle urban needs such as prying (as in doors open, containers open, things apart such as pallets) in addition to much more harsh cutting chores involving seatbelts, hoses, car seat canvass, maybe even wires. It would need to be able to skin a squirrel or pry open/be driven into a typical door. This list is not complete, but you get the idea. To be a "survival knife" it must be a stand alone tool and survive anything for which I would use it. Something you can survive with using only it and your wits, lacking any other tools. And when Hurricane Katrina is bearing down on you, I won't accept the argument that I could remove that door with my Mora if I notch it just so in this spot and this spot.... If it is paired with axes, saws, and crow bars, then I don't need a survival knife, I just need a knife. At that point it ceases being a tool I depend solely on for my life and becomes another option in the tool box.

My friend's choice hands down is the ESEE 5 and I have to agree. In large part, it's the choice because we each have one and have seen the abuse it will withstand. We also know it does knife chores very well. If I'm needing a survival knife, I'm not carving chess pieces or staking my pride on the ability to make wafer thin slices of salami. To US, these requirements are well served by a 1/4" thick blade, but that's just us. If you aren't concerned with the urban aspect, than that Vic farmer may serve every possible need you have. That's my argument for a sharpened prybar for what I want in a survival knife. Ideally, I'd pair it with a Junglas or CS Gurkha kukri for trail blazing/shelter building convenience. My buddy said he'd take his 12" Tarmontina, even though he has "better" options. He knows what it can handle, so I won't argue.

I'm perfectly happy with ESEE 1095. VERY happy with it actually. I'm also very comfortable with CS's SK-5 and Carbon V. I've had great results with both. If the OP wants the perfect hard use "survival knife", I think he should get an ESEE 5 and never look back. If he wants a longer "survival knife" the Junglas would be what I'd advise. Take care.

 

[10mm Glock]

What's a sharpened pry bar argument? What facts are there to research and how is it done, and by whom? You have me curious.



Have you heat treated many knives? What steels, and what equipment do you use to unlock their potential? I can think of a few steels that need treatments that could be/need to be done over long periods of time but not all need or would benefit from it, especially at the thickness typically used in cutlery. I could get more specific about steels and types of ovens, both small home use and large commercial types but this would be the wrong forum for that.

Busse's claim to their heat treat and the time it takes to complete is pretty vague and could be looked at as more marketing because it doesn't say much.

By the way I prefer knives for cutting, axes and mauls for chopping, and pry bars and various types of hooligan tools and wrecking bars for most other stuff. I do have a tool made of S7 that has an axe blade, as well as various wrenches sized for doing things like opening hydrants and such.

The thickest knife I have is made of .34 inch stock ( S7) and I have yet to find a practical use for it. Many of my knives are in the 1/8th inch range and savagely sharp. The thickest I'll carry is .25, though most are thinner. I believe my Koster's are a bit over .20 inch ( 3V). Very nice work! Strong, not too heavy, slices well. It comes close to the do it all type knife I've learned to like in my old age. Ferhman's are very nice too. Busse are nice but the hype, like cold steel, sort of ruins it for me. I have a dislike for people that rename perfectly good, top shelf steels for marketing purposes. It makes me distrust them, as well as a few more feelings not appropriate here. The knives are very well built though, no denying that.

Joe

Jerry said his HT takes over 80 hours.
Fherman says his is a couple day process as well.

 

[rustyrazor]

..Reputation for edge chipping and quibbling on replacements.

i'm not sure i buy this argument... how many people have ever had to have a fally replaced? if so, what the hell were they doing with it to damage it so, and i would argue (for the sake of fairness) that if it broke a fallkniven, it would have broken most other blades as well, and was most likely abuse... probably rather extreme, and i would love to hear a few examples of who this "quibbling" situation happened to and the reasons. as far as the edge chipping issue, i will concede that it does happen. it has happened to all 3 of mine, however if i were a betting man (and i am) i would bet it was due to the finer edge geometry than the steel or heat treat. I am not saying they are the worlds best knives, but i am saying they are sooooo much more adequate for a survival knife than has been presumed (a lot of times by people who have never handled them, but read it somewhere) and for the $500 the OP is willing to spend you could get an A1, with an F1 to go with it and still have cash left over.

 

[kimberfan]

busse or swamp rat.

 

[kdstrick]

What's a sharpened pry bar argument? What facts are there to research and how is it done, and by whom? You have me curious.

Since you have been on bladeforums since 2006 and seem to be an intelligent and knowledgeable man, I must assume this is a rhetorical question. A simple search of the term "sharpened pry bar" will yield 31 pages of posts using that very term. It may be the single most overused term on the forum... besides "survival knife".

Have you heat treated many knives? What steels, and what equipment do you use to unlock their potential? I can think of a few steels that need treatments that could be/need to be done over long periods of time but not all need or would benefit from it, especially at the thickness typically used in cutlery. I could get more specific about steels and types of ovens, both small home use and large commercial types but this would be the wrong forum for that.

No. I'm not a knifemaker or metallurgist. I don't believe one has to be either to exhibit an opinion on the matter. My opinion is shared by Ed Fowler, Jerry Busse and numerous other knifemakers who have made a living by selling knives. Frankly, I'm surprised anyone would disagree with this. Heat treatment is far more important than (Edit to add: given the same steel) in determining the ability and overall performance of the steel. For example: Rowan heat treatment on 1095 makes it a superior knife steel vs. most makers 1095 heat treatment. He has developed a better protocol.

Busse's claim to their heat treat and the time it takes to complete is pretty vague and could be looked at as more marketing because it doesn't say much.

Yes. It is a closely guarded secret. If you developed a heat-treatment protocol that was as effective as Jerry Busse's I suppose you would do the same. It is how he makes his living and feeds his family. I don't see this as 'marketing'.

By the way I prefer knives for cutting, axes and mauls for chopping, and pry bars and various types of hooligan tools and wrecking bars for most other stuff. I do have a tool made of S7 that has an axe blade, as well as various wrenches sized for doing things like opening hydrants and such.

You must be one hell of stout fella to carry all that at once! Kudos! :thumbup: Personally, I prefer to lighten my load a bit and carry a tool that can perform multiple tasks. Cutting, chopping and prying can be done with a good knife. Axes, mauls and prybars are heavy and difficult to carry (for most of us...).

The thickest knife I have is made of .34 inch stock ( S7) and I have yet to find a practical use for it. Many of my knives are in the 1/8th inch range and savagely sharp. The thickest I'll carry is .25, though most are thinner. I believe my Koster's are a bit over .20 inch ( 3V). Very nice work! Strong, not too heavy, slices well. It comes close to the do it all type knife I've learned to like in my old age. Ferhman's are very nice too.

We will find ourselves in complete agreement here. .25" is plenty thick for any task I can imagine performing. Stock thicker than .25 tends to degrade cutting performance as to provide a diminishing return in my opinion. Therefore, I don't see much benefit from anything thicker. I'm also a fan of Koster and fehrman...3v even in a .20 or thinner is unbelievably strong and holds a great edge. Bruce Culberson is making some impressive knives as well.

Busse are nice but the hype, like cold steel, sort of ruins it for me. I have a dislike for people that rename perfectly good, top shelf steels for marketing purposes. It makes me distrust them, as well as a few more feelings not appropriate here. The knives are very well built though, no denying that.

Joe

ALAS! We cut to the heart of the matter. You should have just said you didn't like Busse knives and saved me all this multi-quoting. It's sad that you would allow a little 'hype' deter you from owning a fine knife. Most great makers have this hype for a reason, it is simply due to folks that have used the knives and feel that the performance to price ratio makes the knives a bargain. Chris Reeve, EESE, Becker, Mora, and many other brands have devoted 'fans' because their knives work great for the needs of the owners. I don't find this to be off-putting. It makes me feel like I should check them out.

The assertion that Busse simply renamed a "perfectly good, top shelf steels for marketing purposes" is simply not correct. According to Jerry Busse (the only guy that knows...), "INFI is a proprietary steel and heat-treat protocol developed by Busse Combat Knife Co. It is ONLY available through Busse Combat." Your 'distrust' is confusing since Busse has the best warranty and customer service in the industry. Some makers match it, but none beat it. I suppose you are saying that you would like to know more about the properties of the steel. That makes sense. I'd like to know more about it as well.

But hey, it's your money and you have the right to do as you please with it. Support the makers and companies you like. I'm just glad we have so many great choices of steels and knifemakers today.



.

 

[hardheart]

Steel is more important than heat treat in selecting between knives, and is also the most varied option. Who would ever want a poor heat treat? Well, other than those selections of differential heat treats which leave the blade with lower strength and less resistance to plastic deformation. But with alloy selection, you chose the range of toughness, wear resistance, or corrosion resistance. Heat treat maximizes the properties within the range dictated by alloy content. 52100 will never be stainless, and will never wear longer than a half decent high alloy

 

[Maddogg774]

Mastiff, what Busse or Busse kin knives do you own?

 

[kdstrick]

Steel is more important than heat treat in selecting between knives, and is also the most varied option. Who would ever want a poor heat treat? Well, other than those selections of differential heat treats which leave the blade with lower strength and less resistance to plastic deformation. But with alloy selection, you chose the range of toughness, wear resistance, or corrosion resistance. Heat treat maximizes the properties within the range dictated by alloy content. 52100 will never be stainless, and will never wear longer than a half decent high alloy

I agree... my post was a bit misleading there. I edited to explain. My point was that 52100 heat treated by Ed Fowler is superior to most other 52100. Rowan's 1095 protocol is superior to many other makers 1095 heat treatment protocols. I wouldn't say that other knife companies have 'poor' heat treatment protocols... rather, some guys just do it better. Sorry for being incomplete in my thought...

Still, I believe the differences in heat treatment are under-discussed when it comes to discussions like these. All 52100 or 1095 knives are not equal. Picking a maker that does it right makes a huge difference in knife performance.

.

 

[Transcience]

Just throwing this out there... How about a good ol' Kabar?
It's a classic, affordable and hasn't dissapointed me yet.

Of course there are a lot of better options, but I didn't see Kabar mentioned anywhere so far.

 

[kbog]

I've got a used Camp Tramp you could have. Sits in my sock drawer and collects dust. You could beat the snot out of it but it is not very good looking. Pm me if interested.

I'm not sure why you would spend 500 for a knife you plan to beat up, but different strokes I guess...

 

[buckmaster96]

Bk2 or ontario afghan in 3/8 5160

 

[Maddogg774]

Ka-bars are awesome! I collect them, especially used in combat ones. They are tough and proven. When I picked up and used a Sycko SOD it was my ka-bar times 10! It was everything I wish my ka-bar was.

 

[meanwhile]

i'm not sure i buy this argument... how many people have ever had to have a fally replaced? if so, what the hell were they doing with it to damage it so, and i would argue (for the sake of fairness) that if it broke a fallkniven, it would have broken most other blades as well, and was most likely abuse..

You could argue that, yes. You can argue anything. But unless quite a few people have been lying, a certain number of F1s have been chipping while doing "abusive" things like cutting wood. And pineapples. Maybe rabbit bone is abuse though:

http://www.thestalkingdirectory.co....6-chipped-Fallkniven-F1-after-very-little-use

My impression is that this isn't something to worry about if you own a Fallkniven - knives (a very small minority) either come bad from the factory or not.

However, as for the idea that Fallknivens measure up to the title of "ultimate hard use knife" - no, not even close. For example, a much lighter Busse Skinny Ash easily leaves a Fallk A2 behind in this test:

http://knifetest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=455

 

[jeepin]

I am confused about what size knife the OP wants. In his first post he states "10" OAL" and that means OverAll Length, including the handle. Yet many have been offering up knives with 10" blades, not counting the handle.

Which is it?

How is that confusing. He wants one thats 10 inches overall. Obviously some people thought he meant with a 10 inch blade.