ultimate hard use / abuse knife

[Bigfattyt]

Smachet!

 

[upnorth]

Sak !

 

[The Mastiff]

Since you have been on bladeforums since 2006 and seem to be an intelligent and knowledgeable man, I must assume this is a rhetorical question. A simple search of the term "sharpened pry bar" will yield 31 pages of posts using that very term. It may be the single most overused term on the forum... besides "survival knife

I have heard the term used and on occasion have used it. It is an apt description of a class of knives designed more for ultimate strength than for cutting or slicing. What I don't understand is:

The "sharpened pry bar" argument is only made by the ignorant, the envious and those too lazy to research the facts.

Once again, what is a "sharpened pry bar argument"? What is being argued about them and by whom?

No. I'm not a knifemaker or metallurgist. I don't believe one has to be either to exhibit an opinion on the matter

It would seem you are exhibiting others opinions on this, not your own as you are taking statements by people you respect at face value and repeating them. When talking about 80 hour heat treats what exactly counts as part of the heat treat? Annealing the steel beforehand? How about waiting for the oven to get up to the required temps. Air cooling at XXX degrees per hour. Time in the oil, salt, brine, or air ( or nitrogen,Vacum, etc. )

Some steels require 3 tempers and two cryos so the time is adding up and you are just doing what's needed. Not really anything overly special. Bringing the steel up fairly slowly to prevent warping, as well as the tempering and you have some time involved here. Especially if you count the time the steel is cooling slowly while you are home sleeping coming in the next day to get the ovens up to temp. to begin the next step.

You can see why lots of even big name custom makers.

Frankly, I'm surprised anyone would disagree with this

Are you attempting to place words in other peoples mouths as I see no one stating anything like that. If you can show me where I said that please point it out so I can correct it. Something tells me it's not there because nobody said it.

Rowan heat treatment on 1095 makes it a superior knife steel vs. most makers 1095 heat treatment. He has developed a better protocol.

I'm curious. Other than the warranty which is business, not performance related can you describe exactly what about Rowan's heat treat protocol is better. What way does this effect the performance over, say Kabar, or Ontario, Boker, Becker, or Benchmade. GEC, Queen, Blackjack, New or old Schrade, Etc., etc., An answer like " it's generally accepted", or higher/lower hardness numbers certainly wouldn't count as any kind of evidence. Nor would grinds, finishes, ergonomics or grips when you specify a better heat treat protocol.

You must be one hell of stout fella to carry all that at once! Kudos! Personally, I prefer to lighten my load a bit and carry a tool that can perform multiple tasks. Cutting, chopping and prying can be done with a good knife. Axes, mauls and prybars are heavy and difficult to carry (for most of us...).

Actually my weightlifting days are behind me know. I don't know what carrying all at once has to do with anything. I use the correct tool for the job. It's more efficient, safer, less tiresome and injurious to the body. Hell, there's a lot of reasons. Other than in public buildings or on city streets naturally, which I tend to avoid, I do have access to more tools than just one extra large knife that wouldn't help me at all for most of the situations I've run into in my adult , now 50 year life. Even before the army where every vehicle ( combat anyway) had it's pioneer tools ( axe, shovel, pick, water, extra fuel, etc) I had learned up in michigan, and traveling around the country to some pretty desolate and out of the way ( beautiful) places that I had better have the basics for an emergency and a night or three in the woods up on a mountain in Utah or Idaho. I still do this but it has gotten more high tech ( Solar chargers, smaller and lighter gear like stoves, even better and tastier emergency food .) It sure beats the times I had to go out into the field in the army in central germany in the winter time living with shelter halfs and sleeping bags, always wet and cold. No fires naturally, light discipline, thawing our C ration cans on the engine blocks when we were lucky. ( frozen food causes stomach problems)

I can do a lot with very little but won't unless I have to. Large knives make poor substitutes for other tools which is why the other tools were developed to begin with. There is very little chance I'll be without what I need and doing things like wilderness camping with bare minimum is not my idea of a way to spend time.

ALAS! We cut to the heart of the matter. You should have just said you didn't like Busse knives and saved me all this multi-quoting.

You missed where I stated I had Busse knives, now down to one Infi, and do have some Bussekin. You are looking at me and seeing what you want to see, not even noting things I've said. I did say I don't like their renaming SR101/52100 and SR77/S7. These are perfectly good steels that are named what they are for a reason that has logic to it. Busse's way has only hype to it, not logic best I can tell. Their 52100 knives are right up my alley though, especially the ones hardened up to rc 62. A nice spot for cutting and slicing, but not prying.

Joe

 

[kdstrick]

OK Mastiff, since you admit having used this term, what did you mean when you used 'sharpened pry-bar' to describe a knife? I must again assume your question is rhetorical in nature since I assume you knew what you meant when you typed it.

Is it really necessary to 'prove' that Rowan has a superior heat treatment on 1095, or that the secret to Ed Fowler's success is his method of heat treating 52100? If I said the sky is blue, would you want proof? It just is... and is widely accepted as fact. If you disagree with the statement, state you case. We can completely derail this thread with detail on the specifics of heat treatment protocols, but this is not the place for that as it does not pertain to the question at hand. The OP is asking opinions on 'hard use/abuse knives'. Heat treatment is a variable that is often overlooked by a lot of folks buying knives. My point is that all steels will not perform equally simply because they have the same composition. I've specifically mentioned several brands (makers) that I own and have used. Ferhrman, Busse and Koster all use superior protocols in my opinion and their knives are excellent choices for hard use/abuse.

Is it better to have an axe for chopping than a knife? Absolutely. No one would argue this. It is also better to have a backhoe than a shovel. Again, you miss the point. The OP is asking for advice on a knife that can perform multiple tasks. It just isn't practical to carry an axe, maul and a shovel...or drive a backhoe to work. This is the point. What knife would you carry if you could not carry the perfect tool for a given task?

With regard to the 52100, what makes you feel that it is not well suited to prying at 62 RC? What evidence do you have to support this statement?


Thanks

.

 

[The Mastiff]

OK Mastiff, since you admit having used this term, what did you mean when you used 'sharpened pry-bar' to describe a knife? I must again assume your question is rhetorical in nature since I assume you knew what you meant when you typed it.

Not rhetorical. I still have no idea what the The "sharpened pry bar" argument is. What is the argument about and who is arguing?

Is it really necessary to 'prove' that Rowan has a superior heat treatment on 1095

Yes. You are not doing anything but putting your opinion down in this thread. There is no evidence it is superior. Repeating others opinions does not make them fact. Your opinion does not make it a fact except to you. You should qualify your statements when you write them because they are nothing but opinion. Unless you can prove Rowan has superior heat treatment to the above named ones that have put out 1095 products.

If you take a poll of users at your fishing camp then explain it was a poll at your fishing camp. If you take a poll of 5,000 BF members, state what you did. Being as you know nothing about how Rowan, or any of the other companies heat treats steel there is no possible way you can prove superiority of Rowan or any other company. Opinions aren't facts no matter how many bandwagons there are to jump on.

Ferhmans, Busse's, Kosters, Rowans are excellent hard use knives and there is nothing wrong with recommending them but to state as fact something you have no knowledge of, or can have knowledge of to someone looking for advice is wrong.

If I said the sky is blue, would you want proof?

If you had never seen it with your eyes, and neither had anybody you heard it from, what do you think?

It just is... and is widely accepted as fact.

Sorry, I know I'm kicking a dead horse but I can't help it.

With regard to the 52100, what makes you feel that it is not well suited to prying at 62 RC? What evidence do you have to support this statement?

52100 is a great steel. For some reason many bearing steels make good knives. I'd prefer it lower ( wherever it gets maximum strength & toughness. I'd have to look it up and heat treat it accordingly usually with different temps for heat and temper when going for max toughness) for a prying knife as it's a bit tougher ( depending on the heat treat naturally) but the geometry is more important in this situation. However, as it's not my practice to pry with knives I would take a thinner 52100 knife at rc 62 for use as a knife I could actually slice/cut with. That's a more realistic answer for me and my typical uses and needs.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

 

[BePrepared]

42 dude what is that thing? Looks like a giant guppy bred
With a Latin style machete

I would call it BOB and it would be my friend

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

It's a Friedrich Dick Cutlery "Italien Messer" cleaver. While F.D. calls it Italian, the style is also traditionally used in Switzerland. It's part of their pro/industrial butcher's line, so it's made for seriously hard use. I hope to get some leather sheaths done up for them, perhaps with a piggyback pocket on the front for a li'l flat fixed blade.

It's got an 11" blade, just shy of 1/4" thick at the base with gentle distal taper, and it weighs a whopping 2.5 pounds! Not sure what specific steel it is, though--they just call it "High Carbon Stain Free" but it sharpens up easily and holds an edge well. I'm very pleased!

 

[kdstrick]

Mastiff... I've concluded that you must be related to my x-wife. Up till now, I've not encountered anyone quite so argumentative as her about maters so minor.

Their 52100 knives are right up my alley though, especially the ones hardened up to rc 62. A nice spot for cutting and slicing, but not prying.

Joe

A very interesting comment. When asked to provide evidence the following was the response:

52100 is a great steel. For some reason many bearing steels make good knives. I'd prefer it lower ( wherever it gets maximum strength & toughness. I'd have to look it up and heat treat it accordingly usually with different temps for heat and temper when going for max toughness) for a prying knife as it's a bit tougher ( depending on the heat treat naturally) but the geometry is more important in this situation. However, as it's not my practice to pry with knives I would take a thinner 52100 knife at rc 62 for use as a knife I could actually slice/cut with. That's a more realistic answer for me and my typical uses and needs.

No facts. No evidence. Only opinion. What gives???

So you see, it seems as if you have become snared in a web of your own making. Surely, you can see that your comment on 52100 lacks ANY evidence of your claim that 52100 at 62rc is not suitable for prying. You seem to delight in demanding that others provide evidence of their opinions but do not hold yourself to the same standard. You must see the hypocrisy and double-standard here. Are you not willing to do what you ask of others?

Frankly, I believe it is a ridiculous standard that you have set. Most of what we all discuss here on BF is not scientific evidence formulated in a controlled lab somewhere, but generally opinion based on our own use and experience and knowledge gained from multiple sources. The OP asked for some recommendations on hard use/abuse knives. Many great suggestions thus far... and unless I missed something, they are all based on anecdotal evidence and opinion. No actual scientific proof! That must really drive you nuts.

Hey...Different strokes for different folks. We aren't going to agree. I'm fine with that.

Still, it is rude to continue our disagreement at the expense of derailing a thread.


If you'd still like to argue I'd encourage you to start a new post on your views of Rowan's heat treatment protocol (by the way... it's great...).


SO... moving on....

Apologies to the OP for the minor thread derail... Good luck with the search for your new knife! Be sure and post whenever you make your choice.

The following is a link to Cliff Stamp's website. He's done some very nice work on hard use knives and has tested several of the knives mentioned in this thread. Check it out.

http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/

.

 

[stabman]

Surely, you can see that your comment on 52100 lacks ANY evidence of your claim that 52100 at 62rc is not suitable for prying.

Most steels at that hardness aren't great for prying.

 

[pap11y]

I like the like the look of of the becker bk-9 for a beater. I also have experience with the cold steel bowie machete and it stood up to a hiding one outing (was my mates so even better )

I like machete blades for longer stuff for a cost effective alternative.

 

[The Mastiff]

No facts. No evidence. Only opinion. What gives???

Huh? Of course it's only opinion. That's kind of my point, right?


It's pretty much all opinions. To label something best is to give an opinion, not state a fact. That's my point. Unless you add on to a statement that it's an opinion a lot of new guys will get it in their heads that Rowan makes the best in the business, or benchmade, or spyderco. Etc. It takes proof to do that whether you like being corrected or not.Proof such as information about heat treats the companies keep confidential or proprietary and don't release much about. If you are going to shill for a company at least attempt to give people good information, not marketing or plain hype. By all means though give the OP the benefit of your experience. That's what most look for when they come here.

Frankly, I believe it is a ridiculous standard that you have set. Most of what we all discuss here on BF is not scientific evidence formulated in a controlled lab somewhere, but generally opinion based on our own use and experience and knowledge gained from multiple sources. The OP asked for some recommendations on hard use/abuse knives. Many great suggestions thus far... and unless I missed something, they are all based on anecdotal evidence and opinion. No actual scientific proof! That must really drive you nuts

Nope. It doesn't even annoy me. There's nothing wrong with giving anecdotal information, sharing experiences etc. That's what we do here. I just pointed out you can't arbitrarily declare some company or product "best", or "best heat treat".It seems like you know the difference between facts and opinions. If you don't like being corrected when you are wrong don't post incorrect information on forums where people will read it. Seems like you are being thin skinned to me, as well as argumentative.

Also, I don't "set" anything. A fact is a fact, an opinion is an opinion.



Best I can tell your ex wife isn't here.



Joe

 

[meanwhile]

Most steels at that hardness aren't great for prying.

That, plus isn't it the responsibility of the guy making the positive claim to make the proof, rather than whining that other people can't disprove his claim?

 

[Moses2792796]

In my experience a large, thick bladed knife paired with a saw is the best wood processing combination when you are restricted as to how much weight you can carry. I suspect most people who are really opposed to the idea of using a knife for splitting and light chopping are mostly people who are used to doing wood processing in their backyard with a full sized axe. Although I never have worked out why people seem to get so offended and condescending when someone mentions using a large knife. For hard use I like the Kabar Heavy Bowie, probably better knives out there but it does everything one could conceivably want it to do with no problems whatsoever at a reasonable weight and price. No I'm not planning on batoning it through a brick either. I'm not sure this kind of toughness is really necessary. I use my knives for all kinds of things that many people say is abuse and I haven't broken one yet, a little common sense goes a long way.

 

[jdk1]

If the "Rowan" y'all keep referring to is the same one who makes knives for ESEE, than it's "RowEn" And it is great steel

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I've batoned machetes, Moras, and Opinels without issue. It's all about good technique and not biting off more than you can chew.

 

[Moses2792796]

I've batoned machetes, Moras, and Opinels without issue. It's all about good technique and not biting off more than you can chew.

This, although I would really only use those knives for splitting very thin pieces of wood (sometimes necessary with very dense woods to get a fire started) after doing the bulk of the work with a larger knife.

 

[jdk1]

Although I never have worked out why people seem to get so offended and condescending when someone mentions using a large knife.

There are those who value their own opinion so much they cannot help but offer it as though it was carved in stone and carried off the mount by Moses. The OPINION given is usually followed by something like "if you worked on your woods skills, you'd do things exactly as I do". All forums have them. Most of us appreciate others opinions and get sucked into buying a lot of bladed things because of these differing views. Some folks just take themselves a little too seriously. Take care.

 

[Moses2792796]

There are those who value their own opinion so much they cannot help but offer it as though it was carved in stone and carried off the mount by Moses. The OPINION given is usually followed by something like "if you worked on your woods skills, you'd do things exactly as I do". All forums have them. Most of us appreciate others opinions and get sucked into buying a lot of bladed things because of these differing views. Some folks just take themselves a little too seriously. Take care.

Yeah, it's hard to take people seriously when they act like this, especially since, in my experience, the people who have this attitude are not the ones who know what they are talking about.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

This, although I would really only use those knives for splitting very thin pieces of wood (sometimes necessary with very dense woods to get a fire started) after doing the bulk of the work with a larger knife.

I typically only baton when doing rapid material removal for carving or splitting arm-thick pieces of wood into wrist/finger/pencil-thin kindling. Though I once batoned a CS Barong Machete through an 8-ft length of 9" diameter tree trunk just to see if I could.