Update: Need Advice on A Transaction"

brancron · Dec 9, 2015

I see two ways this should go:

A. If the check did not clear, the seller should initiate the insurance process and recoup what he lost.

B. If the check did clear, the seller should also initiate the insurance process (or at least give the buyer everything he needs to do it) and have the insurance pay out to the buyer. Unless the seller is absolutely certain that the buyer is lying, then why not do this?

ooitzoo · Dec 9, 2015

brancron said:
I see two ways this should go:

A. If the check did not clear, the seller should initiate the insurance process and recoup what he lost.

B. If the check did clear, the seller should also initiate the insurance process (or at least give the buyer everything he needs to do it) and have the insurance pay out to the buyer. Unless the seller is absolutely certain that the buyer is lying, then why not do this?

This

Either check cleared or didnt. By now, we know. Sender either needs to recoup a loss or doesn't.

parkertelmo · Dec 9, 2015

Sorry been working alot for my time consuming job in the Navy. Its hard to not get emotional about this. The buyer is lying or has had a someone steal from his package(that he swears wasnt tampered with). He also swears i only sent 1 knife sheath based on shipping weight, which there Was NEVER ANY WEIGHT FOR PACKAGE. I have filed claims and been calling non stop to followup. The check now 2 weeks later is still showing pending funds. Its clear to me the buyer wants either money refund or insurance money on top of his knives he will get most likely for free when the check bounces. I am posting this to keep all the members of this forum who have showed me so much support in the loop. Thanks to all you guys.

Bigfattyt · Dec 9, 2015

HappyDaddy said:
Their security features are better than other commercial paper, but that only matters if you are very familiar with them and can tell the difference between a legitimate one and a counterfeit by looking at them.

I would add, to this, that there is a 100% sure fire way to avoid a problem with the USPS money order.

You go cash the sucker at the Post office. When you have the cash in hand, counted and in your wallet, then you ship.

I have done this with higher value sales to people with no feed back.

If is very hard to scam me into sending you an item if I have actual cash in my hand.

The other step is insurance, and signature required.

Now, for convenience's sake, Pay Pal is the norm.

stonesell · Dec 9, 2015

I still can't see why any thief would want to go on a public forum, and attract attention to himself. A real con artist would probably stay quiet, and keep moving forward, looking for the next easy mark. They would not waste their time trying to rehash things, with the latest victim. Bladeforums is not a good place for even a small time con man to make a living. I am guessing that someone opened and resealed that flimsy envelope, before it got to the buyer.

Gatogordo · Dec 10, 2015

brancron said:
I see two ways this should go:

A. If the check did not clear, the seller should initiate the insurance process and recoup what he lost.

B. If the check did clear, the seller should also initiate the insurance process (or at least give the buyer everything he needs to do it) and have the insurance pay out to the buyer. Unless the seller is absolutely certain that the buyer is lying, then why not do this?

Well, let's dispense with A immediately. If the check is/was bad, then the seller has no insurance to recoup his loss. The USPS is not in the business of insuring checks that they had nothing to do with. That's why they sell MOs. The postal insurance is for the contents of the package ONLY. IF the check is bad, the seller will be out his knives, period. He will be able to initiate some mail fraud case but, and I repeat, IF the check was bad, he will be out his knives unless the buyer is convinced to return them, assuming he got them.

As for B, if the check clears, which it apparently has not at this point, then the seller can TRY to collect insurance, but IMO it is going to be very difficult to convince the PO that the knives were stolen in the mail. Even if they were stolen by the recipient's intermediary or at that location, the PO would not be liable because they had delivered the package to its destination.

brancron · Dec 10, 2015

Gatogordo said:
Well, let's dispense with A immediately. If the check is/was bad, then the seller has no insurance to recoup his loss. The USPS is not in the business of insuring checks that they had nothing to do with. That's why they sell MOs. The postal insurance is for the contents of the package ONLY. IF the check is bad, the seller will be out his knives, period. He will be able to initiate some mail fraud case but, and I repeat, IF the check was bad, he will be out his knives unless the buyer is convinced to return them, assuming he got them.

As for B, if the check clears, which it apparently has not at this point, then the seller can TRY to collect insurance, but IMO it is going to be very difficult to convince the PO that the knives were stolen in the mail. Even if they were stolen by the recipient's intermediary or at that location, the PO would not be liable because they had delivered the package to its destination.

I'm talking about the insurance on the package in both instances, not the check. The USPS shipping insurance covers packages that are missing their contents. Here are the rules: http://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/609.htm.

KELAMA · Dec 10, 2015

lawfor said:
Nicely written and professional response. I haven't followed this situation closely and so don't have any opinion, but I appreciate the non-inflammatory and matter-of-fact tone. All too often, I have seen people post legitimate concerns about a deal gone wrong and then get attacked. It's unfortunate.

Lone_Wolfe said:
I have no problem with his style of writing. He's laying out the facts without slinging insults and accusations. Wish we had more like that. around here.

^^^

Cmac, seems very professional, & honest to me. At least he's here trying to amicably handle this issue.

Best of luck to both of you guy's here. :thumbup:

lawfor · Dec 10, 2015

KELAMA said:
^^^

Cmac, seems very professional, & honest to me. At least he's here trying to amicably handle this issue.

Best of luck to both of you guy's here. :thumbup:

Exactly my point. I don't know who is in the right here but what I do know is that despite the best efforts of mods, all too often people jump into these threads and start calling people thieves, liars, scammers, dirtbags, etc -- all before or without being certain of all the facts. We all know how the relative anonymity of the internet makes some people quite brave in name-calling. Honestly, what threads like this need is more dry matter of fact "facts" as opposed to a ton of opinions that may or may not be helpful depending on the person offering it. I've been very lucky and have not had to post a thread in this section myself (although I am now dealing with a maker who I paid a very large sum of money to almost a year ago who still refuses to finish the knives and deliver - another story) and I would hesitate to do so because I see how people who do often get treated by what amounts to a cyber lynch mob.

Rookie82 · Dec 10, 2015

I actually think both the Buyer and the Seller have been very professional thus far. Both have stated facts and asked for advise, without causing any trouble. All the name calling seems to be from the Peanut Gallery.

knifehunt · Dec 10, 2015

Rookie82 said:
All the name calling seems to be from the Peanut Gallery.

You just added yourself to the Gallery....

Gastonknife · Dec 10, 2015

lawfor said:
Exactly my point. I don't know who is in the right here but what I do know is that despite the best efforts of mods, all too often people jump into these threads and start calling people thieves, liars, scammers, dirtbags, etc -- all before or without being certain of all the facts. We all know how the relative anonymity of the internet makes some people quite brave in name-calling. Honestly, what threads like this need is more dry matter of fact "facts" as opposed to a ton of opinions that may or may not be helpful depending on the person offering it. I've been very lucky and have not had to post a thread in this section myself (although I am now dealing with a maker who I paid a very large sum of money to almost a year ago who still refuses to finish the knives and deliver - another story) and I would hesitate to do so because I see how people who do often get treated by what amounts to a cyber lynch mob.

This is very sound advice. There are always two sides to every story and people should not jump to conclusions w/o having some facts. Once those are in hand - one can then go from there.
I have to say, this situation is tough. That check should have cleared by now and money in sellers account. Two weeks is more than enough time. Regardless, as long as everything stays the same, the seller is responsible for getting the item to the buyer. Appears that insurance needs to collected from the PO (if possible) and some payment going to the buyer. I just can't ever remember a thread quite like this one B4.

Heirphoto · Dec 10, 2015

Money is in sellers account. Concern is, if fraudulent it could be up to 30 days till the origin bank for the cashiers check can be sure. (It could be cleared earlier and a call to them might show that). Insurance if for the seller to file a claim. With an undamaged and un-tampered cardboard mailer is the post office really going to pay for loss? They will say either the buyer removed them or the seller never shipped them, neither of which is their problem.

Rookie82 · Dec 10, 2015

knifehunt said:
You just added yourself to the Gallery....

Yeah, I know. I considered that point before I wrote that.

knifehunt · Dec 11, 2015

parkertelmo said:
Sorry been working alot for my time consuming job in the Navy. Its hard to not get emotional about this. The buyer is lying or has had a someone steal from his package(that he swears wasnt tampered with). He also swears i only sent 1 knife sheath based on shipping weight, which there Was NEVER ANY WEIGHT FOR PACKAGE. I have filed claims and been calling non stop to followup. The check now 2 weeks later is still showing pending funds. Its clear to me the buyer wants either money refund or insurance money on top of his knives he will get most likely for free when the check bounces. I am posting this to keep all the members of this forum who have showed me so much support in the loop. Thanks to all you guys.

Considering how long this has been, there is no reason that the buyer can't send a photo of the check showing the bank, and Cashiers Check#. He absolutely has a carbon copy as all Cashiers Checks are still done that way. You could look up the bank and then call. This would at least verify if the Cashiers Check was good or not. Is there any GOOD reason why the buyer can not do his, other than saying he doesn't have one?

Rookie82 said:
Yeah, I know. I considered that point before I wrote that.

LOL...

ooitzoo · Dec 11, 2015

I strongly doubt the bank doesn't know of the validity of the check at this point. If it's not, they'd have said so. These kinds of transactions are almost entirely cleared electronically.

Karda · Dec 11, 2015

for all we here know, the buyer may have stopped the payment because he didn't receive everything he paid for.

Danke42 · Dec 11, 2015

Are you sure you can stop payment on a cashier's cheque?

cmac12 · Dec 11, 2015

parkertelmo said:
Sorry been working alot for my time consuming job in the Navy. Its hard to not get emotional about this. The buyer is lying or has had a someone steal from his package(that he swears wasnt tampered with). He also swears i only sent 1 knife sheath based on shipping weight, which there Was NEVER ANY WEIGHT FOR PACKAGE. I have filed claims and been calling non stop to followup. The check now 2 weeks later is still showing pending funds. Its clear to me the buyer wants either money refund or insurance money on top of his knives he will get most likely for free when the check bounces. I am posting this to keep all the members of this forum who have showed me so much support in the loop. Thanks to all you guys.

I have not gotten any responses to my PM's. Nor have I received any updates from you. So I'm not sure who you've been on the phone with "non-stop". The last note I have from you advises me to "join the other thread" which was closed. That note is from 30th November.

The bank who issued the check shows funds paid the day after deposit. This is done according to federal law. Your bank has an image of the check and deposit. The check has completed its collection cycle. They or you can easily, again, verify the authenticity. If your bank has not given you funds, they are in violation of Federal law USC Title 12, Chapter 41 and CFR Title 12 Part 229 (Regulation CC). Question: Why haven't you done that yet with your bank? What precisely is your bank telling you about availability of funds? You're making false accusations when the factual remedies are evident and you are not availing yourself of them. Call your bank:report exactly what they stated as to why they are in violation of federal law. Call the check issuer, or have your bank do so, advise what they stated as to the authenticity. Anything less is just more obfuscation.

USPS has advised they have no record of a claim for that package. Can you share with me the date filed and claim number?

"The buyer is lying"? Do you have something factual to back up that accusation? Furthermore, you make an accusation of insurance fraud?

I've preserved the package for USPIS as advised and they can be the judge of that.

knifehunt · Dec 11, 2015

parkertelmo said:
Sorry been working alot for my time consuming job in the Navy. Its hard to not get emotional about this. The buyer is lying or has had a someone steal from his package(that he swears wasnt tampered with). He also swears i only sent 1 knife sheath based on shipping weight, which there Was NEVER ANY WEIGHT FOR PACKAGE. I have filed claims and been calling non stop to followup. The check now 2 weeks later is still showing pending funds. Its clear to me the buyer wants either money refund or insurance money on top of his knives he will get most likely for free when the check bounces. I am posting this to keep all the members of this forum who have showed me so much support in the loop. Thanks to all you guys.

Rookie82 said:
Yeah, I know. I considered that point before I wrote that.

Danke42 said:
Are you sure you can stop payment on a cashier's cheque?

Yes, but it's not as easy as a stop payment on a regular check. There is a fee involved as well.

Here is some information about fraudulent Cashiers Checks:

It can be very difficult for either you or your bank to tell. When you deposit a check into your account, your bank generally is required by law to make the funds available within a specific period of time (usually, one business day for a cashiers check or other official instrument). This is true even if the check has not yet cleared through the banking system. Therefore, even if the funds have been made available in your account, you cannot be certain that the check has cleared or is "good."
Your bank also may not be able to determine that the check is fraudulent when you deposit it. Rather, your bank may learn of the problem only when the check is returned unpaid by the other bankwhich may take a couple weeks or more. Scammers try to make the item look genuine, which will delay discovery of the fraud. Once the item has been returned unpaid, your bank, generally, will be able to reverse the deposit to your account and collect the amount of the deposit from you.

http://www.occ.gov/news-issuances/consumer-advisories/2007/consumer-advisory-2007-1.html