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Update Re: Kyle Eichenseer
- Thread starter Drdan
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CODE 3 said:
CODE 3 was that directed at me? Personal attacks? I have yet to start a personal attack though I am guilty of come backs. Sorry if I crossed the line but it's far less than many of these guys. So Kit, you point a finger right back at yourself with that one. You start, I finish. "Self defense is intelligence"
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RDT, you must have read it wrong. My post #577 simply told you what I said on a private forum. The one you posted the email on in #568.
I know the rules here. No intent of violating them.
I know the rules here. No intent of violating them.
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- Jun 8, 2000
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Wow, I keep trying to unsubscribe to this thread, or at least stop reading it, but I can't. In fact, I feel at this point that my reputation is being damaged by the fact that I belong to the USN (although I'm not a Suspect) and some of you iceholes continue to refer to the USN as an internet gang. Do you know what they call it in court when you publicly damage another's reputation? It's called slander and is actionable. Wouldn't it just suck to lose your house in a lawsuit because you couldn't keep your mouth shut or behave like a gentleman in an internet chat forum? It could happen (and no, this is not a threat, just a fact).
While I don't know DrDan, and I don't know Kyle, I've met enough guys from the USN in real life and formed real friendships, that if Kyle was a thief, he'd be banned there too. I find it interesting that Kyle was mentioned in this month's Blade amgazine and it's noted that quite a lot of folks have sent knives to him and had them returned. You'd think that if Kyle made a habit out of ripping people off, there'd be more than a lone complaint against him. Even if he exagerated the number of knives he's worked on by double in the article on Pimpin your Knife, Kyle appears to have taken care of an aweful lot of people or SOMEBODY else would be squaling somewhere. The knife community is not so large that this would go un-noticed.
The only evidence I've seen presented is that DrDan contends that Kyle didn't execute his end of a deal that NONE of us here were privy to. This is nothing more than hearsay. As I mentioned above, I don't know either guy and wasn't in on the deal, so I'd be unable to testify in court as to exactly what did happen.
To call a man a thief in no uncertain terms in a public forum is pretty serious deal. You'll never hear me call a man a thief, unless he's stolen directly from ME or been convicted in a court of law for that offence. Anyone who does differently is risking an aweful lot.
You guys keep going at this issue in this way and you could find yourselves crossing from slander all the way to terrorist threat in these sensitive times (terrorism and all).
I think some of the folks here who have been flapping their lips pretty hard ought to go take a long look in the mirror and consider what it takes to behave like a responsible adult. If a crime has been committed, the victim should report it to the authorities, or if he's unable to, someone else should do it for him. If there's no evidence of a crime, I'd think long and hard about slandering someone in a very public, well documented way. Seems like a bad idea to me.
Speaking of well documented, there's no such thing as an anonymous email. IP addresses are logged by ISPs just in case they're ever subpeona'd into by law enforcement or a civil court proceeding.
To those guys who got banned from an internet forum, get over it. I am proud to be a member in at least decent standing at both forums, but if I got banned from either one, it wouldn't dramatically affect my life. I've been hit by a speeding van, arrested, dragged through financial ruin in a divorce and generally pummeled in a variety of brawls when I was younger. If I lived through all that prospered, I'd survive a banning from an internet forum too, even one l really enjoyed too.
You have to keep a little perspective in life to keep from getting carried away with yourself. Excercise some self restraint. Be a grown up.
Like Kit said, I hope this works out acceptable for both of the parties involved (or something like that).
John
While I don't know DrDan, and I don't know Kyle, I've met enough guys from the USN in real life and formed real friendships, that if Kyle was a thief, he'd be banned there too. I find it interesting that Kyle was mentioned in this month's Blade amgazine and it's noted that quite a lot of folks have sent knives to him and had them returned. You'd think that if Kyle made a habit out of ripping people off, there'd be more than a lone complaint against him. Even if he exagerated the number of knives he's worked on by double in the article on Pimpin your Knife, Kyle appears to have taken care of an aweful lot of people or SOMEBODY else would be squaling somewhere. The knife community is not so large that this would go un-noticed.
The only evidence I've seen presented is that DrDan contends that Kyle didn't execute his end of a deal that NONE of us here were privy to. This is nothing more than hearsay. As I mentioned above, I don't know either guy and wasn't in on the deal, so I'd be unable to testify in court as to exactly what did happen.
To call a man a thief in no uncertain terms in a public forum is pretty serious deal. You'll never hear me call a man a thief, unless he's stolen directly from ME or been convicted in a court of law for that offence. Anyone who does differently is risking an aweful lot.
You guys keep going at this issue in this way and you could find yourselves crossing from slander all the way to terrorist threat in these sensitive times (terrorism and all).
I think some of the folks here who have been flapping their lips pretty hard ought to go take a long look in the mirror and consider what it takes to behave like a responsible adult. If a crime has been committed, the victim should report it to the authorities, or if he's unable to, someone else should do it for him. If there's no evidence of a crime, I'd think long and hard about slandering someone in a very public, well documented way. Seems like a bad idea to me.
Speaking of well documented, there's no such thing as an anonymous email. IP addresses are logged by ISPs just in case they're ever subpeona'd into by law enforcement or a civil court proceeding.
To those guys who got banned from an internet forum, get over it. I am proud to be a member in at least decent standing at both forums, but if I got banned from either one, it wouldn't dramatically affect my life. I've been hit by a speeding van, arrested, dragged through financial ruin in a divorce and generally pummeled in a variety of brawls when I was younger. If I lived through all that prospered, I'd survive a banning from an internet forum too, even one l really enjoyed too.
You have to keep a little perspective in life to keep from getting carried away with yourself. Excercise some self restraint. Be a grown up.
Like Kit said, I hope this works out acceptable for both of the parties involved (or something like that).
John
jmxcpter, you've got a good point. However, a few answers are needed.
1. There are other poeple pissed at Kyle but they won't ojin in here because they have yet to be banned from that site. How do I know, well let's just say a lil' bird told me. They are frequent users of both forums and just don't want any trouble. I understand.
2. Just because Kyle says he does 700-800 mods on knives a year doesn't mean it's true. I find it hard to believ personally. With all the other responsibilites part time makers and modifiers have, it makes little sense. It could be true but I am inclined to question that. Nere the less, my pint is valid that just because he says so doesn't make it true.
So being that some of us know there are oters who have gripes with him and that he's lied about things involving Dan so far. A reasonable assumption would be that the whole things has been fabricated. it makes him more valuable in the eyes of those who would search for people to modify their knives. He's presenting credentials.
Otherwise your commenst are fair and your speculation pretty logical. It would be more so if Kyle himself had not publicly admitted to doing Dan wrong and then verbally flogged him and let his frieds do the same.
1. There are other poeple pissed at Kyle but they won't ojin in here because they have yet to be banned from that site. How do I know, well let's just say a lil' bird told me. They are frequent users of both forums and just don't want any trouble. I understand.
2. Just because Kyle says he does 700-800 mods on knives a year doesn't mean it's true. I find it hard to believ personally. With all the other responsibilites part time makers and modifiers have, it makes little sense. It could be true but I am inclined to question that. Nere the less, my pint is valid that just because he says so doesn't make it true.
So being that some of us know there are oters who have gripes with him and that he's lied about things involving Dan so far. A reasonable assumption would be that the whole things has been fabricated. it makes him more valuable in the eyes of those who would search for people to modify their knives. He's presenting credentials.
Otherwise your commenst are fair and your speculation pretty logical. It would be more so if Kyle himself had not publicly admitted to doing Dan wrong and then verbally flogged him and let his frieds do the same.
Cougar Allen
Buccaneer (ret.)
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RDT said:esau, I have been trying to. But evertime I use paragraphs as soon as I hit submit BF re formats them?oops...
Paragraph with line breaks, not with indents. Hit the key that says "enter" on it twice, once to end the line you're on and a second time to make a blank line between paragraphs.
If you're having difficulty understanding what a personal attack is, well, if you are tempted to mention anyone but the individuals involved in the transaction (that would be Eichenseer and Dan) it's probably going to be a personal attack, if it's in this thread. Even if you were to say something complimentary about someone else it would be off-topic....
Of course some others are making their character known in this thread, but everyone can see that for themselves; they don't really need any help.
Cougar Allen
Buccaneer (ret.)
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jmxcpter said:
Evidently the people trying to cause confusion have succeeded in confusing at least one person....
The current deal was made in this thread (early on), because the individuals involved were apparently unable to exchange email for some reason. We are all privy to it, at least those of us who have read the early posts in this thread.
We know Eichenseer received Dan's money because he said so (in this thread). We know he did not deliver the supplies because the go-between he was supposed to deliver them to told me so. (He prefers not to have his name associated with this mess, and I don't blame him for that, but he is a well-known figure on the knife forums and his integrity is beyond question.)
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"Slander" is spoken.
Generally, "libel" is the written publication (telling another) of an untruthful statement about a third party, with malice (a motivation to injure), where that statement actually damages the third party in his reputation or trade (That is, hurt feelings are not enough, however justified.)
Injury must be proven by a plaintiff.
Truth of the statement is an absolute defense, to be proved by defendant (the person publishing the statement) at trial.
File suit for libel claiming busines damage and the defendant is entitled to see all of the records of your business for the relevant period to test the contention of business damage. The IRS therefore often hovers over such suits like . . . well, like certain dark hovering birds (April 15th :barf: ).
Under the law of no state is a written statement that a person is a "thief" a "terroristic threat." It is no type of crime at all unless falsely made in a report to the law enforcement authorities.
What we have, IMO, is a lot of bad taste and lack of class by some on both sides in a situation where the facts displayed here have not been expanded in pages and pages of posts. (I am personally sad that Eich has decided not post further in explanation, but it does seem truely unlikely that he will, given the verbal "blood" that has flowed.)
By the way, at law "theft" requires that you TAKE property (car, $$, jewelery) FROM someone. The facts here displayed do not support a claim of theft.
And George Carlin still does "forbidden words" better.
Generally, "libel" is the written publication (telling another) of an untruthful statement about a third party, with malice (a motivation to injure), where that statement actually damages the third party in his reputation or trade (That is, hurt feelings are not enough, however justified.)
Injury must be proven by a plaintiff.
Truth of the statement is an absolute defense, to be proved by defendant (the person publishing the statement) at trial.
File suit for libel claiming busines damage and the defendant is entitled to see all of the records of your business for the relevant period to test the contention of business damage. The IRS therefore often hovers over such suits like . . . well, like certain dark hovering birds (April 15th :barf: ).
Under the law of no state is a written statement that a person is a "thief" a "terroristic threat." It is no type of crime at all unless falsely made in a report to the law enforcement authorities.
What we have, IMO, is a lot of bad taste and lack of class by some on both sides in a situation where the facts displayed here have not been expanded in pages and pages of posts. (I am personally sad that Eich has decided not post further in explanation, but it does seem truely unlikely that he will, given the verbal "blood" that has flowed.)
By the way, at law "theft" requires that you TAKE property (car, $$, jewelery) FROM someone. The facts here displayed do not support a claim of theft.
And George Carlin still does "forbidden words" better.
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Sorry Cougar, but I wasn't privy to your conversation with the go-between and really have no proof of what might or might not have transpired between all of the individuals involved since Kyle's last post on the subject. I know DrDan says he still hasn't received his due and that several people who used to have pretty good reputations have damaged them pretty severly in the process of trying to bring justice to a situation that they have no control over.
Short of undertaking some sort of covert assault on Kyle and taking him hostage and forcing him at the threat of personal peril to send something to DrDan, nobody on the USN can force Kyle to do anything and to put forth the supposition that someone could is ludicrous.
Nobody but DrDan and Kyle really know what has transpired between them. We only know what they each chose to post on an internet knife forum, and what personal conversations we might have had with those involved (none here). None of what's been put forth here would stand up in court. There is too much suppostion. Now the slander against him, that's different. It's real and obvious and unless someone can prove him a thief (so far, not done).
The only thing we know for sure about Kyle's actions are that he has ceased participating in this discussion (perhaps at the advice of counsel, I'm only speculating here). Perhaps Kyle sent the stuff directly to DrDan who at this point is ticked off enough at Kyle that he's letting this thread go on to try to punish Kyle for a deal gone wrong? There's also the possibility that Kyle is ticked off enough about the whole matter that he threw the stuff in a drawer and refuses to deal with it at this time. I don't know and neither does anyone else.
The conspiracy theorists in the group will certainly be able to point out any number of boogy men hiding in the bushes doing mystical things, as is always the case. Like I said before, if there's truly a crime going on here, someone go to the authorities. If not, let's put this thing to bed and get on with life.
Cougar, how about locking this thread and making it a sticky so that anyone can read it and judge for themselves. If new REAL evidence comes to light on either side, a new thread can always be started.
As to coolaid, I'm on a low carb diet and never touch the stuff.
John
Short of undertaking some sort of covert assault on Kyle and taking him hostage and forcing him at the threat of personal peril to send something to DrDan, nobody on the USN can force Kyle to do anything and to put forth the supposition that someone could is ludicrous.
Nobody but DrDan and Kyle really know what has transpired between them. We only know what they each chose to post on an internet knife forum, and what personal conversations we might have had with those involved (none here). None of what's been put forth here would stand up in court. There is too much suppostion. Now the slander against him, that's different. It's real and obvious and unless someone can prove him a thief (so far, not done).
The only thing we know for sure about Kyle's actions are that he has ceased participating in this discussion (perhaps at the advice of counsel, I'm only speculating here). Perhaps Kyle sent the stuff directly to DrDan who at this point is ticked off enough at Kyle that he's letting this thread go on to try to punish Kyle for a deal gone wrong? There's also the possibility that Kyle is ticked off enough about the whole matter that he threw the stuff in a drawer and refuses to deal with it at this time. I don't know and neither does anyone else.
The conspiracy theorists in the group will certainly be able to point out any number of boogy men hiding in the bushes doing mystical things, as is always the case. Like I said before, if there's truly a crime going on here, someone go to the authorities. If not, let's put this thing to bed and get on with life.
Cougar, how about locking this thread and making it a sticky so that anyone can read it and judge for themselves. If new REAL evidence comes to light on either side, a new thread can always be started.
As to coolaid, I'm on a low carb diet and never touch the stuff.
John
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Thomas, you are correct. It is more accurate to say that Kyle misappropriated the funds from Dan. However, that doesn't make it any less serious.
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Thomas, I was mentally going back and forth between libel and slander. I should have researched it a bit and been more clear.
I did not intend to indicate that anyone had committed a terrorist threat by calling someone a theif, but was only trying to illustrate a point that the discussion was heading in a very ugly direction and that threats of violence seemed like they were just around the corner.
I would suppose that if the allegations against Kyle were true, then breech of contract would be the appropriate term, not theft. I don't claim to be an attorney and it sounds like you have a better handle on the legal terms than I.
I stand corrected.
John
I did not intend to indicate that anyone had committed a terrorist threat by calling someone a theif, but was only trying to illustrate a point that the discussion was heading in a very ugly direction and that threats of violence seemed like they were just around the corner.
I would suppose that if the allegations against Kyle were true, then breech of contract would be the appropriate term, not theft. I don't claim to be an attorney and it sounds like you have a better handle on the legal terms than I.
I stand corrected.
John
MelancholyMutt
Doggy Style
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however, if a breach of said contract was conducted and one party appeared to have no intention or honoring the contract, then that would that mean?
Fraud and theft?
Fraud and theft?
jmxcpter said:
How exactly does one prove he has NOT recieved something ? Does he have to show you the non-existant parts/funds to prove that ? There is only one person that can prove what exactly has happened and that one person chose not to provide a proof, even if one exists; quite the contrary, that one person seems to be willing to take whatever negative publicity they can get for their crime rather than putting this matter to rest. Providing Dan with a scan/photo of the receipt is incredibly trivial, but Kyle hasn't done so. How did you expect Dan to prove the items were not sent - it wasn't him that was supposed to send them (and therefore be in possession of appropriate evidence) ?
If people had "pretty good reputations" but lost them due to trying to justify a theft by various far-fetched claims and accussations it's because they went about it the wrong way - covering up for a criminal doesn't win you popularity points. Geting the criminal to undo his wrong does. If you think Dan is making the whole story up or something just get the goddamn receipt (with date indicating that stuff was shipped back when Dan paid for it) or the tracking number, present it to the other party and be done with it.
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faramir said:
No one is covering for anyone, you are continuing to accuse people, other than Eich or DrDan, of conspiricies that didn't happen. Do you have any new facts about DrDan or Eich? Or did you miss Cougar's and CODE 3's posts about keeping it to either DrDan or Eich.
Keith and Matt,
Misappropriation of funds is when you work for an entity (employer, fund, charity, etc.) and you divert/take the funds for use without that entities knowledge or permission to your own use. DrDan knew he was giving money to Kyle and you can't misappropriate money from yourself. So this doesn't apply.
So I think you are suggesting that Kyle and DrDan had an agreement that x work was to be done in exchange for x dollars. If that's the case then that is a contract. Then I think you are suggesting that Kyle is in breech of a contract with DrDan. It would then not be a criminal issue at all, but a civil dispute over a contract.
To make this matters a little more muddy as far as I'm aware DrDan asked that the deal be reveresed for whatever reason. So if there is no agreement on an "out" or "reversal" clause (and I haven't heard of one here), then DrDan is in breech of a contract as much as your suggesting Kyle is in breech of contract.
I'd like to ask a few questions. In this case was there an agreement on a time frame of completion of the work? Was there an opt out/reversal clause? Should Kyle be out money because DrDan didn't want the work to be completed? Just interested in your opinions, not looking to further conspiricy theories.
Oh yeah, I also hope this works out for both parties involved.
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MelancholyMutt said:
An intentional breach of contract is a breach of contract, not theft (a criminal act requiring that the goods have been physically taken from Drdan against his will and intent) or "fraud" (an intentional misrepresentation of a presently existing fact or facts with the intent and effect of securing a damaging change of position by the victim).
If there was no agreement that the goods be returned, then there is no breach of contract. However, the law of most states, including Nevada, does not leave someone in Drdan's stated position with no remedy. If the goods or their price has not been returned, then Eich has been "unjustly enriched," and could be held to answer for the value of those goods in a civil action. (Sometimes the law makes sense.)
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Mr. Linton,
Correct me if I'm wrong but if there is no agreement to reverse the contract, then Kyle is not under obligation to damage himself either in order to return the goods or the price.
So DrDan would have to show "unjust enrichment" and Kyle could show that reversing the deal outside the contract would damage his financial standing, ie Kyle isn't obligated to damage himself to reverse the deal on DrDan's insistence.
Correct me if I'm wrong but if there is no agreement to reverse the contract, then Kyle is not under obligation to damage himself either in order to return the goods or the price.
So DrDan would have to show "unjust enrichment" and Kyle could show that reversing the deal outside the contract would damage his financial standing, ie Kyle isn't obligated to damage himself to reverse the deal on DrDan's insistence.
Okay, reading the last couple pages and all the law termonology and speculation. I would ask a professional or at least a forumite courtesy here. Would anyone of you or all of you be so kind as to email me with a critique honest and brutal if need be of my posts. Other than the paragraphing and punctuation/spelling mishaps. Please, I honestly want as impartial an opinion (especially from the moderators) as possible. I think I am trying to make it clear among all the personal crap flinging that the point still is "Kyle needs to pay and this will go away". So far the negative rep points are piling up. Im more proud of that than anything. 
However, if someone can clearly and as straight forward as possible tell me what it is I am not saying or what it is I am saying too much of I would greatly appreciate it. As well, all you members that would personally attack me, I invite you to sway my opinion with information. Not cursing or slander or any nonsense. Email me personally with INFORMATION only and a civilzed tongue and we will debate it privately. If you feel you can change my mind I invite you to try. If I can change yours I would invite you to listen.
Esav Has been kind enough to hit me up privately a few times and ask me to chill out with any cross forum bashing. I have tried but man o' man it has been difficult. I apologize to him here because I have had such a hard time holding my tongue on the subject. Esav, I'm sorry about that. I wish I could have controlled myself better. However, I do feel somewhat justified in doing so as the whole thread has degenerated from one subject to that subject though I may be guilty of causing that as well. I apologize not to "them" but to the BF moderators who have tried to hold the reins of this thread for so long now. Sorry guys. I'm tryin' but please understand it ain't easy. Drop me a line.
Lastly, thanks to those of you(and there are many) who have posted positive rep points and contacted me privately in support of this cause. Keep up the pressure and everything will end as it should. Dan with his money back. That's the point.
However, if someone can clearly and as straight forward as possible tell me what it is I am not saying or what it is I am saying too much of I would greatly appreciate it. As well, all you members that would personally attack me, I invite you to sway my opinion with information. Not cursing or slander or any nonsense. Email me personally with INFORMATION only and a civilzed tongue and we will debate it privately. If you feel you can change my mind I invite you to try. If I can change yours I would invite you to listen. Esav Has been kind enough to hit me up privately a few times and ask me to chill out with any cross forum bashing. I have tried but man o' man it has been difficult. I apologize to him here because I have had such a hard time holding my tongue on the subject. Esav, I'm sorry about that. I wish I could have controlled myself better. However, I do feel somewhat justified in doing so as the whole thread has degenerated from one subject to that subject though I may be guilty of causing that as well. I apologize not to "them" but to the BF moderators who have tried to hold the reins of this thread for so long now. Sorry guys. I'm tryin' but please understand it ain't easy. Drop me a line.
Lastly, thanks to those of you(and there are many) who have posted positive rep points and contacted me privately in support of this cause. Keep up the pressure and everything will end as it should. Dan with his money back. That's the point.
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