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Update Re: Kyle Eichenseer
- Thread starter Drdan
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spyken said:
Kyle was supposed to send the knife to a person in the US, so no customs shouldn't have been involved. If Kyle sent it to Italy then he ignored the instructions given to him by Dan.
loandr. said:
I have the misfortune of having to deal with them on semi-regular basis (many times a year, say at least once per month for every purchase i make for myself). They are one gigantic PITA, to say the least. Different countries have different import restrictions but ultimately it all boils down to one thing - they (customs clerks) "lost" a portion of their work with the EU free trade regulations so they are even more zealous when it comes to mail they *can* screen. Where 70% of mail from the US of appropriate size (thicker than your average letter) went by unmolested before we had the pleasure of joining the EU 100% of mail from the US is screened now (and either chalked off as not worthy of customs inspection or thoroughly inspected). I can't imagine Italy being any different - but like Keith said, that's not the point, Dan provided US-based addres (as stated on page 3 or 4 of this thread IIRC) where knife was supposed to be returned to.
Again, my apologies for the misunderstanding on that issue.
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Dave, not sure about the criminal part, but I would definitely say that it is unethical at the very least.
What Dave has asked about the knife show, is basically the same as non Gold members selling here through emails, and not paying the fee like the Gold members have. It is wrong, unethical, and unfair to the paying members.
As far as Kyle is concerned, he had the ability to nip things in the bud by simply telling Dan the information he requested. ( I.E. tracking numbers, copies of receipts, ect.) He chose not to respond, thereby opening things up to speculation. It is also my understanding that Dan's items were to be shipped to a U.S. address, so Customs shouldn't have anything to do with it.
What disturbs me the most here is that Dan was banned from the USN for simply bringing the subject up, and asking Kyle to provide proof of shipment. Seems extremely unfair to me.
Have any of the USN members asked Kyle for proof of shipment, or is his word proof enough to you guys? if so, then Dan's word should be proof enough that he didn't receive his property, which he has documemted proof that he paid for. Let's be fair, Dave. Kyle isn't any better than anyone else, and just because he 'said so' doesn't make it true.
Bottom line here is that Kyle needs to resolve this himself, by giving Dan the proof that his items were shipped when promised. After all, Dan did send Kyle the money for the items. He has proof.
As far as Kyle is concerned, he had the ability to nip things in the bud by simply telling Dan the information he requested. ( I.E. tracking numbers, copies of receipts, ect.) He chose not to respond, thereby opening things up to speculation. It is also my understanding that Dan's items were to be shipped to a U.S. address, so Customs shouldn't have anything to do with it.
What disturbs me the most here is that Dan was banned from the USN for simply bringing the subject up, and asking Kyle to provide proof of shipment. Seems extremely unfair to me.
Have any of the USN members asked Kyle for proof of shipment, or is his word proof enough to you guys? if so, then Dan's word should be proof enough that he didn't receive his property, which he has documemted proof that he paid for. Let's be fair, Dave. Kyle isn't any better than anyone else, and just because he 'said so' doesn't make it true.
Bottom line here is that Kyle needs to resolve this himself, by giving Dan the proof that his items were shipped when promised. After all, Dan did send Kyle the money for the items. He has proof.
Lifter, I assume you are refering to me selling out of a paper bag. Well, in fact I never sell randomly and always have at least one dealer there who has already made arrangements with me to buy my knives since they are going to be in town. So, it's not as though I am just trolling for dealers. That is far from the case. I wouldn't have closed my wait list if I needed the sales that badly. As well, you do have a point and though I never realized it, it was brought to my attention at the last show by one of the guards. I told him though what he thought I was doing by looking around was actually me looking for my wife who was late(as usual) and that's the truth. Everyone at the two dealers that bought from me met her as would you if we had spoken. Not that that is on your list of things to do.
As well, I didn't know you and I had beef? that's new...well...I guess when someone calls out one of your buddies your liable to back him up. Even though it was as you said about Kyle and Dan...between him and me ONLY. Since you've jumped in to further assault my character I thought I would set the record straight and come clean. So might I have been taking money out of the promoters pocket? yes,...maybe? (although it does seem different as the vendors and I have arranged to meet there and do business there since they are in my neck of the woods and it would be easier for all involved) I am sorry, I didn't realize the strictness at the shows as there are many, many Suspects and Bladeforumites at these shows, selling and trading with one another that should probably be left to the forums only shouldn't it? Sir, these are people you hang with too. So let's not call attention to one (me) but to all if you are truly concerned with integrity here. That would mean, you chastising your fellow suspects as well.
Now, if I have mispoken and applied what you were saying to me by accident or guilt, I am sorry. We have never really had any beef nor have we ever really spoken other than "hey, what's up?" so I apologize in advance. However, if I was your target, then let my comments stand. Also if you feel the need to investigate further you can ask, several of the people on these forums who were there who asked to see what I was up to. Remember everyone brings stuff to show and tell at these shows. That's what I did and I did tell them they are already sold to certain vendors. One of our moderators was there as well. He saw them and handled a few when the guard apporached us and heard all that was said. Pardon the funding of my honeymoon oh knife show police.
Hey Loandr. thanks bro!
Take care...R
As well, I didn't know you and I had beef? that's new...well...I guess when someone calls out one of your buddies your liable to back him up. Even though it was as you said about Kyle and Dan...between him and me ONLY. Since you've jumped in to further assault my character I thought I would set the record straight and come clean. So might I have been taking money out of the promoters pocket? yes,...maybe? (although it does seem different as the vendors and I have arranged to meet there and do business there since they are in my neck of the woods and it would be easier for all involved) I am sorry, I didn't realize the strictness at the shows as there are many, many Suspects and Bladeforumites at these shows, selling and trading with one another that should probably be left to the forums only shouldn't it? Sir, these are people you hang with too. So let's not call attention to one (me) but to all if you are truly concerned with integrity here. That would mean, you chastising your fellow suspects as well.
Now, if I have mispoken and applied what you were saying to me by accident or guilt, I am sorry. We have never really had any beef nor have we ever really spoken other than "hey, what's up?" so I apologize in advance. However, if I was your target, then let my comments stand. Also if you feel the need to investigate further you can ask, several of the people on these forums who were there who asked to see what I was up to. Remember everyone brings stuff to show and tell at these shows. That's what I did and I did tell them they are already sold to certain vendors. One of our moderators was there as well. He saw them and handled a few when the guard apporached us and heard all that was said. Pardon the funding of my honeymoon oh knife show police.
Hey Loandr. thanks bro!
Take care...R
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Hey Code3,Mike, why does USN come out of your mouth so much? Did Dr Dan have a deal with Kyle or with the USN? You just love to stir the pot between the 2 forums when in fact there are quite a few members here that are happily members of both forums. There's even 1 or 2 people that are moderators on both forums. I personally am an admin there now, but have had pleasant phone conversations with Spark, have many,many good friends on this forum, and am at home on both. The problem in this thread, if it hasnt been resolved yet, has nothing to do with the USN.
Rich, my point above is that none of us(including me) here are totally without flaw, and we should be careful with the stones we throw.
Rich, my point above is that none of us(including me) here are totally without flaw, and we should be careful with the stones we throw.
Dave, a point well taken but are my points to your concern not satisfactory examples of such? For I have pointed out that what you said about me at the shows goes for most of the forumites on either of these sites. Your point though was aimed at me particularly and when I hadn't been able to reply you make another comment to that fact inferring that I am maybe being quiet about it as if I thought I was doing something so horrible I best not speak it aloud for all to hear. Now, when a maker and a dealer agree to meet at a show to exchange, the dealer has paid to do such business. Does the dealer not have the right to decide how he does his business with the $800. he has paid? If I am asked for work by those who I have standing orders with, I deliver. Regardless of where. I did however, feel a bit guilty for the first time in doing so, thanks to the security person who rightfully thought I might be doing such but at the wrong time. However, had I sold in front of the guard to the dealers with tables who expected me or otherwise, there would never have been an issue. As has been the case in the past. I can recall selling to a dealer several times in front of show "officials" without a hitch...why? because that is part of the business the vendor came there to do. But since it has been pointed out, I will think twice about that and reconsider that part of the business. Do I feel it was dishonest? NO, because it wasn't done covertly or without the people's involved knowledge. But I do understand why a promoter might feel that. So I will consider their feelings on the issue. As for me carrying in a paper bag....I dont walk around the streets of NYC with a black leather bag that say KNIVES on it for all to see. They are to be out of sight in public. Otherwise it could be misunderatood as menacing. As well, it just isn't smart. As you can imagine, since I do not make folders, fancy knife bags usually do not hold larger fixed blades very well. So I usually individually baggy them and then rubber band the ones together that go to the appropriate vendor. That all said, I can safely say that I have never, ever sold to an individual at a show. I have never ever, walked around trying to unload my knives on individualsn or dealers. I have only walked with my knives in low numbers and showed them to friends and fellow forumites just as they do with their leather goods and their kydex and other knives they have brought to show and tell. I have only shown them and at some point later in the show I have sold them to the dealers that requested them. Last time was just as described. I thought that was part of the fun anyway? to show your wears...to talk about our habit. Our passion. The business done between individuals was just part of the fun, the community, the sharing of gear and of ideas. The making of new friends? Is that not part of it?
I guess I should expect to be attacked some how because of my backing of Dan. That is after all what happens whenever you question a Suspect and this is but a small example of why people here in this thread have attacked the other site for doing what is happening here now. As moderators and as contributing members of a site you must REPRESENT the site and only the site before the individual with impartiality. That is the responsibility. Especially without knowing the facts first hand. And more so after enough evidence in Dan's favor thus far. Is it in the hands of the customs agents?...maybe but after the way Dan was treated it is hard for him and for any bystanders here to think that the right thing was done to Dan's content. The very fact that Kyle would say, I will mark it as a knife and blah blah to screw him with the customs agents is still, not the right thing to do. Any maker who does business out of the states will tell you they mark it a gift and a tool and such so that the customer gets their goods back. If it is in customs hands, it's because Kyle made it so.
In the end, yes, yes....we all have flaws. This I know all too well and I am very familiar with some of my flaws. My new wife is familiar with them as well. That said, ripping someone off or forcing the loss of property is more than a flaw, it's intent. When made public for all to view it is even more so. If Dan were here in the US, it would be a whole lot easier for him to take legal action. Especially considering all the public proclomations by Kyle on the issue. When I had my debacle with him one of my closest friends who is a lawyer offered to take on the issue as a case because when he saw the emails I still had and the flaming online he saw it as harmful to my new business and told me it would have been a sure bet I'd win because of all the slander. I am not much for suing people or going to court and all that hassle (I'm more the "let's argue it out" or Let's duke it out kinda guy.). However, I take the a civilized route first and discuss before claws come out and people get all wriled up. I let it die and that was that. Washed my hands of them and them of me. Whether a case could have been won or not is a useless argument now. Now Dan comes along and I could do nothing but sympathize with him as I feel much of what he must feel so I chimed in. Dan has showed little ego in this situation other than being the offended party. Kyle has shown much ego only fueled by the support of his friends even with his open statements of slander on Dan and with holding and possibly/probably sending his knife so that customs will seize it and keep it from it's rightful owner. Similar in structure to what happened with me. His ego only fueled by those who didn't know me well or my character. Adding insult to injury and then trying to attack my business which had nothing to do with our trade. Using schoolyard tactics (that work quite well), name calling and banning before he was able to properly defend himself and then post if he recieved his knife or not. The pot and the kettle are both black so no one needs to remind them, they know well. So do we. So where's the point? other than people keep this thread alive because they are curious to see if Dan has gotten his knife back like he deserves to.
Hugs and Kisses everyone...
I guess I should expect to be attacked some how because of my backing of Dan. That is after all what happens whenever you question a Suspect and this is but a small example of why people here in this thread have attacked the other site for doing what is happening here now. As moderators and as contributing members of a site you must REPRESENT the site and only the site before the individual with impartiality. That is the responsibility. Especially without knowing the facts first hand. And more so after enough evidence in Dan's favor thus far. Is it in the hands of the customs agents?...maybe but after the way Dan was treated it is hard for him and for any bystanders here to think that the right thing was done to Dan's content. The very fact that Kyle would say, I will mark it as a knife and blah blah to screw him with the customs agents is still, not the right thing to do. Any maker who does business out of the states will tell you they mark it a gift and a tool and such so that the customer gets their goods back. If it is in customs hands, it's because Kyle made it so.
In the end, yes, yes....we all have flaws. This I know all too well and I am very familiar with some of my flaws. My new wife is familiar with them as well. That said, ripping someone off or forcing the loss of property is more than a flaw, it's intent. When made public for all to view it is even more so. If Dan were here in the US, it would be a whole lot easier for him to take legal action. Especially considering all the public proclomations by Kyle on the issue. When I had my debacle with him one of my closest friends who is a lawyer offered to take on the issue as a case because when he saw the emails I still had and the flaming online he saw it as harmful to my new business and told me it would have been a sure bet I'd win because of all the slander. I am not much for suing people or going to court and all that hassle (I'm more the "let's argue it out" or Let's duke it out kinda guy.). However, I take the a civilized route first and discuss before claws come out and people get all wriled up. I let it die and that was that. Washed my hands of them and them of me. Whether a case could have been won or not is a useless argument now. Now Dan comes along and I could do nothing but sympathize with him as I feel much of what he must feel so I chimed in. Dan has showed little ego in this situation other than being the offended party. Kyle has shown much ego only fueled by the support of his friends even with his open statements of slander on Dan and with holding and possibly/probably sending his knife so that customs will seize it and keep it from it's rightful owner. Similar in structure to what happened with me. His ego only fueled by those who didn't know me well or my character. Adding insult to injury and then trying to attack my business which had nothing to do with our trade. Using schoolyard tactics (that work quite well), name calling and banning before he was able to properly defend himself and then post if he recieved his knife or not. The pot and the kettle are both black so no one needs to remind them, they know well. So do we. So where's the point? other than people keep this thread alive because they are curious to see if Dan has gotten his knife back like he deserves to.
Hugs and Kisses everyone...
Dave, I've explained to you why I have such a problem with the USN. The USN is supposed to hold itself to higher standards, but I have experienced first hand the unfairness of that place, and I constantly hear of others who have been treated less than respectful as well. BFC doesn't treat its members nearly as harshly as the USN does. I'm proof of that.
I am also well aware of the two moderators of both forums, believe me. I've had an earful from both over this, and other issues.
Dave, I have no issues with you, and I have said so several times. My problem with this issue is that someone 'over there' who is supposed to represent the administration is being less than honest in his dealings with a fellow member. When said member asked for proof of shipment, he was banned. For me, those actions speak volumes of the USN, and coupled with the random bannings of members who aren't part of the 'in crowd', makes me glad that I am no longer a member.
Bottom line: one of you USN members need to encourage Kyle to do the right thing by Dan. As soon as I hear that this issue has been resolved, I'll close this thread so it will die.
I am also well aware of the two moderators of both forums, believe me. I've had an earful from both over this, and other issues.
Dave, I have no issues with you, and I have said so several times. My problem with this issue is that someone 'over there' who is supposed to represent the administration is being less than honest in his dealings with a fellow member. When said member asked for proof of shipment, he was banned. For me, those actions speak volumes of the USN, and coupled with the random bannings of members who aren't part of the 'in crowd', makes me glad that I am no longer a member.
Bottom line: one of you USN members need to encourage Kyle to do the right thing by Dan. As soon as I hear that this issue has been resolved, I'll close this thread so it will die.
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Lifter and RDT, glad to see you guys are on better terms today.
Code3, I can't speak about any actions or interactions you had on the USN, nor can I speak to Dan's situation as I wasn't personally involved, but it got me curious enough to keep following this thread. To continue to slam the USN as a whole though, on an ongoing basis, does get my nose a bit out of joint. I'm a participating member of both forums and can say with certainty that no forum is perfect, but on the USN, just like on Blade Forums, there are a lot of good people sharing and making friends. I'm not a Suspect, I don't know Eich and it wouldn't be my place to put my nose into their business. I hope it can be resolved equitably. But as you're a moderator here I'd like to see you take the high road and quit bashing the other forum. Nobody over there wastes any energy bashing you.
Don't take this as a flame, just constructive criticism from a paying member.
John
Code3, I can't speak about any actions or interactions you had on the USN, nor can I speak to Dan's situation as I wasn't personally involved, but it got me curious enough to keep following this thread. To continue to slam the USN as a whole though, on an ongoing basis, does get my nose a bit out of joint. I'm a participating member of both forums and can say with certainty that no forum is perfect, but on the USN, just like on Blade Forums, there are a lot of good people sharing and making friends. I'm not a Suspect, I don't know Eich and it wouldn't be my place to put my nose into their business. I hope it can be resolved equitably. But as you're a moderator here I'd like to see you take the high road and quit bashing the other forum. Nobody over there wastes any energy bashing you.
Don't take this as a flame, just constructive criticism from a paying member.
John
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Uh, nevermind. I see in a previous post Dan has already said he's filed a claim with Paypal. Good luck with that.
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My last thoughts on this.
Blaming the USN for something that might/or might not be a wrongdoing by someone acting as an individual is like blaming guns for murder. Or like blaming spoons because rosie odonnel is fat.
I'm gone, got a knife in the mail today from some hillbilly from Kaintuckey named billyjoebobdan Carson or something like that, and it's time to play with it.
Blaming the USN for something that might/or might not be a wrongdoing by someone acting as an individual is like blaming guns for murder. Or like blaming spoons because rosie odonnel is fat.
I'm gone, got a knife in the mail today from some hillbilly from Kaintuckey named billyjoebobdan Carson or something like that, and it's time to play with it.
RDT: I had similar experience with someone else (not Kyle). Sorry for late response - my second son was born on Sunday and I did not have time to post.
lifter: I think that no one blames USN. But I am sure if Dan was having problems with nonUSN member he would not have been banned. Poeple there are not treated equally.
David
lifter: I think that no one blames USN. But I am sure if Dan was having problems with nonUSN member he would not have been banned. Poeple there are not treated equally.
David
David1967, congratulatios on your childs birth! 
It must be admitted that on any other forum, people do not get banned for trying to prove they've been had by someone who's a memeber on said forum. I have yet to see that on either BF or KF only at the USN. As a whole, it's not a bad place, there are a lot of fine contributing people there but there is a reason why people are nay saying the USN here. It's not just for the hell of it, it's because some of us have either had the **** end of the stick over there or have seen it given to someone else who didn't seem to deserve it. That is what is happening now. I have met and know many USN members and they are cool people for sure but there are several I could live without most definately. That said, it is all too common for someone to have a legit beef and say something about it only to be called foolish names and even be threatened and then banned. If that behaviour continues then of course people are gonna hold grudges and chime in when someone speaks ill of the place or certain members. It keeps happening here, because it keeps happening there. Thru any of the sometimes ridiculous arguments here at BF, it still maintained a much more forgiving atmosphere as well at KF. Action = Reaction it's simple. Now I'm not here to start beef with people I have none with nor to flame all the members there. Just to set the record straight and back Dan as I know how he feels in regards to Kyle and a quite juvenile and reactionary response from other of the USN members in our respective predicaments. This will happen again I am certain. It will keep happening unless policy changes to mediate in a civilized and even confidential manner. The best I cam say for the USN now is that those who chimed in with simple response like "I hope this is worked out fairly to both parties invloved" or " I hope these two guys work it out and all ends well" types of replies. To those members, I will give you a hearty pat on the back. That's the right mentality to start out with. Then weigh the evidence over the time needed to resolve the problem or not and then make a judgement. Only to be heavily monitored by the moderators so that the schoolyard/"pile on" mentality is left out at least until one party is proven guilty. Nuff said?....R
It must be admitted that on any other forum, people do not get banned for trying to prove they've been had by someone who's a memeber on said forum. I have yet to see that on either BF or KF only at the USN. As a whole, it's not a bad place, there are a lot of fine contributing people there but there is a reason why people are nay saying the USN here. It's not just for the hell of it, it's because some of us have either had the **** end of the stick over there or have seen it given to someone else who didn't seem to deserve it. That is what is happening now. I have met and know many USN members and they are cool people for sure but there are several I could live without most definately. That said, it is all too common for someone to have a legit beef and say something about it only to be called foolish names and even be threatened and then banned. If that behaviour continues then of course people are gonna hold grudges and chime in when someone speaks ill of the place or certain members. It keeps happening here, because it keeps happening there. Thru any of the sometimes ridiculous arguments here at BF, it still maintained a much more forgiving atmosphere as well at KF. Action = Reaction it's simple. Now I'm not here to start beef with people I have none with nor to flame all the members there. Just to set the record straight and back Dan as I know how he feels in regards to Kyle and a quite juvenile and reactionary response from other of the USN members in our respective predicaments. This will happen again I am certain. It will keep happening unless policy changes to mediate in a civilized and even confidential manner. The best I cam say for the USN now is that those who chimed in with simple response like "I hope this is worked out fairly to both parties invloved" or " I hope these two guys work it out and all ends well" types of replies. To those members, I will give you a hearty pat on the back. That's the right mentality to start out with. Then weigh the evidence over the time needed to resolve the problem or not and then make a judgement. Only to be heavily monitored by the moderators so that the schoolyard/"pile on" mentality is left out at least until one party is proven guilty. Nuff said?....R
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