Waning appeal of super steel

I stopped placing emphasis on steel grade and more on the heat treatments. Even the most rad super steel on a poorly treated Chinese sample can be outdone by a $10 truck stop knife if the truck stop dude applied a quality heat treatment to an inferior steel.
 
BubbaGump said:
I stopped placing emphasis on steel grade and more on the heat treatments. Even the most rad super steel on a poorly treated Chinese sample can be outdone by a $10 truck stop knife if the truck stop dude applied a quality heat treatment to an inferior steel.
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Well if you bought that super rad steel knife from a reputable manufacturer, then it'd be a defect and replaced...
 
I've not shied away from knives that are made from 'pedestrian' or 'lesser' steels. To me, a knife is the sum of its parts. For some, paying $100 or more for anything in AUS-8 is simply outrageous, but I did just that when I bought an Al Mar Ultralight Eagle. I could have bought a knife with better performance steel for the same price, but that wasn't the point of my purchasing decision. I liked the overall package and AUS-8 is ok by me.

My steel requirements are pretty humble. For pocket knife duty, I can get the job done just fine with a 440A or a Chinese alphabet soup steel. If I actually used my pocket knives all day long, I'm sure I would have a much more profound appreciation for super steels, but that ain't the case. Super steels truly are far superior in many ways, but for my mileage, I can appreciate 'good enough.'

The only user blade steels I refuse to buy anymore are 420J2 (which is fine for a laminate or liner material though) and that weird Pakistani pot metal damascus. :barf:

-Brett
 
Gaston444 said:
Friendly advice: Don't put any money at risk on you figuring out the difference in a blind test... I could understand anyone here feeling confident that could tell a super-steel from a Chinese "mystery" steel after passing hundreds of blind tests... But the fact is none of you have the means to ever make any blind tests, or even have the slightest conception of how they are necessary to even begin to talk the way you do... And yet you speak as if you had made it through hundreds of blind tests and passed them with flying colors...

Let me put it this way, given the colossal amount of variables, and greater still potential for user-induced bias, not to mention the lack of microscopes to check the true condition of the edges you are comparing, or the materials they are cutting, what do you think would be a scientist's likely opinion of your pronouncements?

The best clue that you are clueless is this: Among the largest variable of any steel's edge holding ability is probably the basic cleanness of the edge material... Depending on source, you could have the same steel clean or dirty, and it will still pass basic industry standards (which you don't know what they are anyway): Yet NEVER on this forum have I seen the issue of steel cleanness discussed..

Why? Because none of you have the means to evaluate steel cleanliness to begin with, which requires an expensive lab, so the issue doesn't even exist for you... Yet for aircraft performance you can bet they do check aluminium for cleanness... That is why it is called "aircraft quality aluminium".

Because doing that boosts the costs to aeronautical levels, $1500 bolts and so on, I'll break shocking news to you: Your knives get basic industrial crud, but some industrial crud is cleaner than other, and you ignore it because you have no means to check for any of it anyway... That's how confident a scientist would be that you'd make it through a blind test...

Gaston
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My knives are really clean. :thumbup::D:rolleyes::foot:

If you read up on the origin of many of the real "super steels" out there were not designed exclusively to be used for knives. As such, industry standards for those steels are not based on how they perform when shaped and finish ground into a knife.

Real world use of actual knives in different steels does tell the story though.


I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that my S90V military holds an edge much longer than my standard S30V one through using it over a period of time... (Same blade grind/geometry so that can't be the difference :confused:).

A BD1 manix pales in comparison to a S30V model in terms of edge retention (hate BD1 btw, bottom of the barrel performance). In using a laminated Mora VS, a standard carbon or stainless model (have them all) there is a noticeable difference in the form of less edge degradation.

Go out and buy some hemp rope and start cutting it into sections (make sure to keep count of how many cuts/knife) and you'll soon see that steel does make a difference. Speculation and assumption does not...


Last I checked no one in the knife industry or world at large was worried about making a flying knife so we can leave aeronautical engineers out of the equation too. :thumbup:
 
I've done several head to head tests and it's much more difficult to see distinct differences in steels that most people think. I've also done some less rigorous cutting on rope and duplicated cutting performance of high end steels using much less expensive ones. Again, the differences in steels are much harder to detect than most people think. Stuff like 440A class steels cut as much rope as M4 and still make the test cuts (slicing paper), VG-10 vs. 20CV where VG-10 makes the test cut cleaner/easier than 20CV at the end of the test, and 8Cr13MoV keeping similar sharpness to S30V throughout the cutting test.
 
dkb45 said:
When I first got into super steels, I thought they were just the coolest thing. The technology, the increased performance, the overall cool factor. After living with the super steels for a while now, I noticed they are a lot less appealing than they used to be. As somebody who spends more time stropping his knives than using them, I find the "lesser" steels to be more fun. The payoff from stropping and less intensive sharpening are much more tangible, and the maintenance is much easier (a few licks on the stone, or a few minutes stropping and the edge is back to new). Am I alone in the waning love? Honestly if all of the designs I liked with super steels were made with steels like 440C or D2 I wouldn't have anything in super steels.
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I wouldn't say that my appeal is Waning...but I feel your pain when it comes time to sharpen my "super steel" knives, that's for sure! :P
 
Some "super" steels might not get used much, but there are still makers (Gayle Bradley, Chris Berry, Phil Wilson, Dan Keffeler, etc) who see them as a way to wring maximum performance out of specific application blades. I see this as a positive sign that steel experimentation is a way to learn new things and discover new abilities versus just a marketing ploy to get a new production model to sell well.
 
Super steels are fun and have merit.



I have been playing around with S90v
It cuts very aggressively compared to other ingot steels like d2
It really cuts stuff with authority, its almost deceivingly sharper the other ingot steels because the carbides really bite cutting mediums so good.

By the layman terms it doesn't go dull


However being obsessed with possessing a hair shaving bedge at all times.
It goes just as dull as any other steel
IMHO " working" edges are dull

But these high vanadium steels seem to still make jagged,ripping cuts while normal ingot steels are dull as butter knives.

The benift of a super steel for a regular dude is that he doesn't sharpen knives ( I was there) and his knife keeps cutting when dull.

You buy a s110v blade and it doesn't have to be sent out for sharpening in a few years.

One the flip side,a heavy user, that can sharpen.
Gets a knife that shreds, and can get a job done without field sharpening.

The don't have to stop and sharpen during a busy cutting job
Like at the hemp rope factory... Lol jk
Like for skinning, carving, whatever the task may be.
 
Hey Gaston please take a video of you chopping hard and fast with your hollow round handled large blade. Since it is so ergonomic you should not have to reposition your hand with it. You know, it being round and impossible to index without looking at it ;)
 
Super steels are fun and have merit.



I have been playing around with S90v
It cuts very aggressively compared to other ingot steels like d2
It really cuts stuff with authority, its almost deceivingly sharper the other ingot steels because the carbides really bite cutting mediums so good.

By the layman terms it doesn't go dull


However being obsessed with possessing a hair shaving bedge at all times.
It goes just as dull as any other steel
IMHO " working" edges are dull

But these high vanadium steels seem to still make jagged,ripping cuts while normal ingot steels are dull as butter knives.

The benift of a super steel for a regular dude is that he doesn't sharpen knives ( I was there) and his knife keeps cutting when dull.

You buy a s110v blade and it doesn't have to be sent out for sharpening in a few years.

One the flip side,a heavy user, that can sharpen.
Gets a knife that shreds, and can get a job done without field sharpening.

The don't have to stop and sharpen during a busy cutting job
Like at the hemp rope factory... Lol jk
Like for skinning, carving, whatever the task may be.
 
DeadboxHero said:
Super steels are fun and have merit.



I have been playing around with S90v
It cuts very aggressively compared to other ingot steels like d2
It really cuts stuff with authority, its almost deceivingly sharper the other ingot steels because the carbides really bite cutting mediums so good.

By the layman terms it doesn't go dull


However being obsessed with possessing a hair shaving bedge at all times.
It goes just as dull as any other steel
IMHO " working" edges are dull

But these high vanadium steels seem to still make jagged,ripping cuts while normal ingot steels are dull as butter knives.

The benift of a super steel for a regular dude is that he doesn't sharpen knives ( I was there) and his knife keeps cutting when dull.

You buy a s110v blade and it doesn't have to be sent out for sharpening in a few years.

One the flip side,a heavy user, that can sharpen.
Gets a knife that shreds, and can get a job done without field sharpening.

The don't have to stop and sharpen during a busy cutting job
Like at the hemp rope factory... Lol jk
Like for skinning, carving, whatever the task may be.
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That's kinda how I am, I tend to obsess over sharpeness as well. After use if it's not shaving sharp and I'm home it it gets touched up whether by strop, stone, or a few passes on the appropriate belt on the wskt blade grinder.

The only time I don't really obsess over sharpeness is when I'm out in the field using it, I'll just strop at the end of the day and bring it back as much as possible until I go home, unless I absolutely have to sharpen it in the field.

This is where I see a benefit from a steel like s30v that holds a working edge for along time, but as soon as I'm home it's brought back to razor sharp regardless of it still having a working edge. Same thing for my edc knives, as long as they're still cutting at work I won't bother with sharpening until I get home..If they stop cutting good (which doesn't happen often) I carry a small ceramic rod to touch up the edge quickly.

You mentioned s110v, I'm absolutely loving that steel, and how it actually holds its razor sharpness thru extended use before it even starts wearing into a working edge. It's the prefect edc steel for my needs.
 
Cobalt said:
Hey Gaston please take a video of you chopping hard and fast with your hollow round handled large blade. Since it is so ergonomic you should not have to reposition your hand with it. You know, it being round and impossible to index without looking at it ;)
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Nah, he just likes to jump in, say a bunch of inaccurate and down right wrong stuff, maybe throw some insults about Americans or the USA, drop an Andy Roney quote and then bounce out for a day or two. You should know this by now ;)
 
As for steel appeal, the main thing to me is that the manufacturer is honest about what steel it actually is.
Then I can decide if I want that particular knife, based on that design, and what uses I have for it.

I like awesome steel, but I also have some in that Chinese 8Cr13MoV steel also.
I bought the less great steel because the design was neat, it would work for the intended purpose, and it was quite affordable. :)
 
stabman said:
As for steel appeal, the main thing to me is that the manufacturer is honest about what steel it actually is.
Then I can decide if I want that particular knife, based on that design, and what uses I have for it.

I like awesome steel, but I also have some in that Chinese 8Cr13MoV steel also.
I bought the less great steel because the design was neat, it would work for the intended purpose, and it was quite affordable. :)
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Yup. 440c from an unknown country will not work. I trust the 8cr from reputable companies. Love my Tremor for $25. I would pay more for a better steel in the tremor but for what it is a like it enough to own two.
 
craytab said:
It is about as definable as "hard use" or "survival knife" or "tactical". I don't like these defining terms. Why can't we just take things for their attributes rather than put them in categories. So many steels have been considered super steels it is a joke now. Means nothing. It is used a lot now as a negative term. Like in this thread.
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I'll second that. No real definable meaning really. However, if somebody asked us to name a couple supersteels, our lists would be very similar.

My EDC stuff hovers around AUS-8, 1095 and VG-10-ish, not because I don't think the newer steels are better materials, it's just that my EDC's don't do anything crazy and don't need to be sharpened all that often... and when they do need it, I like to take about 90 seconds to get it back where it belongs. These materials also generally mean a more affordable tool as well.

Is the next generation of steels better performance-wise than my choices? Absolutely. And I don't need anybody going full-Gaston and telling me that I can't tell the difference without an electron microscope lab and a PhD in metallurgy. I just simply don't require that level of performance, nor do I want the additional effort in sharpening. Just personal choice here.

We should just put the Man of Steel and the Man of Supersteel in a room and see who walks out. Solve this issue right quick I suspect.
 
A lot of great posts in this thread. Rev makes a great point (which I meant and failed to communicate in my first post in this thread), and I also really like what 42B had to say about application. :thumbup:
 
PNWhovian said:
As much as I love my Randall Fireman(440B I believe) I still think my 3V blades and even my S30V from Strider are way too good to give up.
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I'd love to see a picture of that Randall Fireman!
 
craytab said:
Nah, he just likes to jump in, say a bunch of inaccurate and down right wrong stuff, maybe throw some insults about Americans or the USA, drop an Andy Roney quote and then bounce out for a day or two. You should know this by now ;)
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Who is Andy Roney? I see you constantly dog pile on grammatical errors, spelling errors, and others opinions then you make a spelling error? It happens so get over it! Sorry to go OT...but get over yourself :cool:

And then you cry about it http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1356901-Non-receipt-claim-filed-with-Paypal-1hr-after-payment-was-sent?highlight=craytab

please direct me to a positive post that you have made and I will be more than happy to eat my words
 
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