Wayne Goddard and so called junk steel......

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"I have never had a student that showed any talent for grinding blades."

This single line in the 50 dollar knife shop was worth the admission to me.

Wayne is inspirational.

Sometimes I wish that I wasn't someone who learns by doing... but the truth is I wouldn't have it any other way.

Thanks Wayne.
 
LRB said:
I think if you are making knives out of junk steel as a hobby and past time, great, but if you are selling to the public, I believe you should give them your best. That would be a known steel with proven heat treat methods, not just a good guess that you got it right, because you have guessed it to be a steel that in reality, it may not be. When you sell a knife to a customer made from a specific steel, with a proven HT, you can tell him what kind of performance he can expect from the knife, and in some cases, what he cannot expect it to do. The analogy of baking a cake would be a good example, except the obvious was left out. The obvious is that if you want the cake to come out right, you buy the necessary ingredients, and go by a proven recipe. If you were making a cake for yourself, then you can do it anyway you want. If you were making it for important guests, it may be wise to use a proven method and choice ingredients to lessen the chance of disappointment.
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You're under the impression that all customers want 100% martensite, or some other metric other than aesthetic and/or romance in the story of the blade. If this were the case, tamahagane or wootz blades would have been abandoned years ago, instead of the pieces commanding high prices because of the effort involved in making steel that the smith possibly has no clue as to the precise alloy content. Why would someone pay more for an ivory handle instead of micarta? The very best in terms of knife handle performance did not come from the mouth of an elephant.
 
Sparljo said:
"I have never had a student that showed any talent for grinding blades."
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You mean there's hope for me yet??!!

I have his $50 Knife Shop book close by, (along side the Al Stohlman leather books).....and I always will.:thumbup:
 
about ten years ago, i was 13 or 14, i got waynes plans for a foot powered treadle hammer, not only did he send me that, but also he sent me info on gas forges, hammer shapes, etc., and a nice little hand written letter. he is definetly one of my knifemaking heros, it was awesome to have a personal experience with someone that i looked up to. as far as using LMBs, springs and stuff like that, most of that information was printed before the internet was around and at those times it was hard to find small quantities of knife steel without going though a knifemakers catalog. back then,for me at least, it was easier to come across a piece of scrap iron and try to make a knife out of it rather than to spend 30 bucks on something and mess it up.

my first knife i made was out of a piece of non mag stainless my uncle had given me. i had no means to heat treat it, later i learned i couldn't heat treat it anyway. after that i ended up getting 440c, 0-1 and i tried springs and even tried a tranmission shaft, now i use 52100 round stock for forging and D-2 for stock removal. some them were good, some weren't, everyone was a lesson learned and a good time passed. so i have to thank wayne for his knowlege and will to write about his expreinces. it gave me reasons to try things and learn what works, what doesn't. i can't say any of it was a waste.
 
I feel like I am being baited.

Junk steel. Please explain.

I know that XYZ steel works. Sure, for experimenting, "junk steel" is OK but why? We go with this batch of steel and it "may" be OK. The next batch is different.

It may just be me but I like "known" constants. That is why I use the same steel at the same temperature from the same supplier. These are knowns and it takes a lot of flies out of the ointment. On occasion, I may venture out to other sources but that is just playing. Who knows, I may stumble across something.

The thing is, I know what works (for me). Once I find this balance, this is what works for me. It may not work for eveyone. I admonish folks here to try it themselves.

Do what you do and let us know. The sad thing of it is..is that a leaf spring today from a 1990 Sierra may not work the same as a leaf spring from a 2000 Chevy Sierra. Are you willing to risk your reputation as a knifemaker on it before you extensively test it? Are you making knives or are you just fartin' around?

Craig
 
Mr. Richard, I dont think anyone was trying to attack Mr.Goddard in a personal way, question his experience, or question his Martial issues. I think some people just have problems with some of his advice, no big deal, I am sure he has no problem going to the store to buy food or even sell a knife! His knives would probally out sell 80% of other makers knives no matter what they are made of. I have a ton of stuff in my shop that I made from the 50.d.k.s, and it all makes alot of things easier and works amazing. You can look at his book and see some of the nicest knives imaginable, and he made them. I know I posted some heat in the other thread and didnt want you to think I would ever question your friends intentions, or him being a good person. If in anyway I did I apologize and didnt mean in anyway to offend you or Mr Goddard.
 
its real, real simple for me, if it makes a good performing, serviceable blade, its not junk steel, no matter the source or knowledge of whats in the steel. I would call it "unkown" steel!

Ive got over 2000 lbs. of W2 and 1095, but every now and then i will go out to the scrape pile and do some testing on unkown steel, just for fun.
 
I think it's already been mentioned, but you can learn a lot about steel in general from salvaging, recycling and using scrap. It's more work, but it pays off in the end.

If you just buy known steel, blindly follow a recipe or a methodology, and assume everything worked the way it's supposed to, because you heard it from so and so... what have you learned?
 
One of the best things about working with salvaged steels is,… that it teaches you not to assume anything and to think for yourself...
 
It seems to me that people are getting confused with the difference between being 'educated' and 'knowledgeable'. Sure, a person can read a spec sheet and a recipe book and know how to treat that steel (you've become educated), and you may be more comfortable with that knowledge of following a set and proven procedure. But that doesn't mean that someone else knows less about it than you do because they don't follow that same recipe, and a knowledgeable person may know something that's not in that recipe book. That person is going to be the guy who figures out that he got a shipment of 6150, not 5160:D And he'll know how to respond!

Now, I don't necessarily think that starting out experimenting is a good thing, some people will learn more & faster by following a set procedure. But, I know there's no way in hades I know enough about knifemaking to tell anyone they're doing it wrong:p There are too many variables in working with steel, too many variables in equipment, and too many variables in skill sets for the same 'recipe book' to work for all of us:thumbup:
 
Don't take any of the following personally, gentlemen... I don't. I'm just speaking in general terms, this isn't directed at anyone in particular. Just blowing off a little steam here.

I understand the appeal and romance of using recycled or unknown steel. Clearly, many fine smiths enjoy the whole process. That's fine. But to look down your nose at people who choose to learn on and work with new steel is patently ridiculous. Just because someone decides to start with materials that have been developed with millions of dollars of research, doesn't mean they're "blindly following" someone else. Nor does it mean they're automatically less creative or skilled than someone who hammers a knife-shaped object out of god-knows-what. Either person might end up with a fantastic knife or a piece of junk, depending on the many factors and variables others have mentioned.

Am I "against" makers who use unknown steel? Absolutely not. Can excellent knives be made that way? Of course, it's been proven time and time again. But I'd like to point out that "snobbery" can go both ways, and either way it's not good for any of us.

No offense intended or taken. :)
 
One thing that amazes me time and time again is how truly huge the phenomenon of “backyard bladesmithing” has become over the last ten years or so, and it is still a relatively new phenomenon. I run into people all the time now who have set up makeshift smithies in there backyards, garages etc… It has brought bladesmithing to the general public and the masses. I don’t see how this could be a bad thing. It gets the general public involved with our craft and helps bring in new blood. Wanye had a lot to do with it through his writings and teachings and deserves a big part of the credit.
 
I enjoyed the whole "spirit" of The $50 Knife Shop.

It encouraged me to start a new hobby and I found it a challenge to try to do things as inexpensive as possible at first.

I compare it to when I started golfing 25 years ago. I didn't have a lot of money and when I found a set of clubs at a yard sale for cheap, I was thrilled. They were good enough to get me started. I didn't have the money to actually GOLF, but I could afford the driving range(a buddy worked there, free was a good price!) I had fun and found it a challenge just to hit the ball straight !

Thanks Wayne for the encouragement in your writings.
 
I tested for my Mastersmith performance test under Wayne, he has and still does contribute much to this "thing" of ours.
Tai is much too humble, I remember when I first started in the late 80's Bo Derrick and many others clambored to procure Tai's stuff up at Solvang.
Thru testing and constantly pushing the borders both Tai and Wayne have given more than their fair share back to this community.
My first Bladesmithing Teacher, Martin Kruse, constantly spoke of Tai in glowing terms.
I for one, appreciate all of the great info I can glean from these two greats and too many others to mention
Dave
 
Ray Good on you im very glad to see you trying to open up peoples eyes on just trying to Condemn Wayne Goddard ..
many people have truely become "Steel Snob's" beacuse they can only work with this or that known steel and envy those who do honest homework in seeing if a steel will harden and perform.. To those who wish to Attack real "Smith's " think about this the original problem with steel was too much or too little carbon content for the most part so the "Smith" had to find a way to re-fine it into something usable ..today we can safely use "Junk" metal beacuse we can experiment with it for a small risk of our time ..Timing Chain /Chainsaw chain /Files/Harley Chain /Cable /Ball Bearing's/crowbars/hammer heads/railroad spikes/ect can all be easily found and made into blades If you try!! Look at all the Weird stuff people Make Damascus from !! are they all Quack's too??
i have only talked to Wayne at a couple of show's but he does know the steel's he uses and get's the best from each one ..Im a No Name but i can see Bullshit and will call it as i see it Bullshit !! Wayn is a good guy and has Earned Respect !!
I have only meet Wayne a couple of times a
 
Craig, Fortunately when I started making knives it was 5 or 6 years before I was on the internet so I had no one telling me I couldn't make a knife blade out of junk steel except for a few guys on the construction sites that I worked with. There were also very few books out that I knew of that would have been any help. My first junk steel of choice was leaf springs but being on construction sites so much of my time rebar started to interest me. I've got to admit when I first tried the rebar I actually didn't think it would work but it did. I'd bring scrap rebar home from the site and a week or two later I was selling them as knives to the fellows at work. I think most bought them cause they were very unique. Most that did buy them were shocked that they actually worked quite well. I have no idea what quality the rebar is today.

Here's a list of junk steels I have used:

springs, both leaf and coil
saw steel
agricultural steel, hay rake tines and the parts used to work the soil
rebar

I have yet to try a lawn mower blade but I'm sure they will work. :D I do have one in my shop but before I give it a try as a knife blade I plan to re use it for its intended purpose. It bent real bad after it met a mole mound. I would have went ahead and tried to straighten it then but I'd just burnt my shop and barn down two weeks earlier.

Here's a link to one of my rebar knives:
http://www.bladegallery.com/shopexd.asp?id=2750

Here's a link to a really good thread started by some fellow named Google:
http://www.knifenetwork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51279

Information about me: http://www.hawknknives.com/aboutme/_aboutme.shtml

Last but not least, Thanks for the positive response towards Wayne!
 
Pinoy Knife said:
Ray Good on you im very glad to see you trying to open up peoples eyes on just trying to Condemn Wayne Goddard ..
many people have truely become "Steel Snob's" beacuse they can only work with this or that known steel and envy those who do honest homework in seeing if a steel will harden and perform.. To those who wish to Attack real "Smith's " think about this the original problem with steel was too much or too little carbon content for the most part so the "Smith" had to find a way to re-fine it into something usable ..today we can safely use "Junk" metal beacuse we can experiment with it for a small risk of our time ..Timing Chain /Chainsaw chain /Files/Harley Chain /Cable /Ball Bearing's/crowbars/hammer heads/railroad spikes/ect can all be easily found and made into blades If you try!! Look at all the Weird stuff people Make Damascus from !! are they all Quack's too??
i have only talked to Wayne at a couple of show's but he does know the steel's he uses and get's the best from each one ..Im a No Name but i can see Bullshit and will call it as i see it Bullshit !! Wayn is a good guy and has Earned Respect !!
I have only meet Wayne a couple of times a
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Hey Matt, Are you still around or are you over seas? Thanks for you positive comments! I've got to go work on a fence before my cows get out.
 
Ray im still around ..i moved and became a Washingtonian . got a 9-5 job and everything . still make as often as i can ,going out to the shop now to continue what may become a "personal knife" unless someone buy's it then ill have to make another (LOL)
i don't get online as much as i used too beacuse of this job thingy:D
 
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