Wayne Goddard and so called junk steel......

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Bruce Evans said:
If blade quench quality was so important to the uneducated buyers why then are so many $3.00 Pakistan folders sold everyday?
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Because the uneducated buyers you mention don't know steel from shinola, and there's a huge market for cheap, glitzy junk.

I apologize in advance for the tone of my following statements...

There is nothing inherently spiritual or magical about any given steel, or any other material. We're talking about inanimate objects, for goodness sake! Attaching some kind of metaphysical attribute to any material or technique reeks of baloney-sausage to me.
 
Bruce Evans said:
...If you want to see some high dollar scrap steel knives try buying a original Loveless or Randall,not to mention a Scagell...
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Please understand Bruce that this is not meant to take you to task but to correct the record on a common misconception so no offense is intended. Also please believe me that I quit caring about this steel source debate a long time ago, I have stated on this forum that I play with scrap occasionally myself, but the Scagel thing caught my attention. We can go to Mr. Loveless and I don’t know much about early Randalls, Bill Scagel is no longer able to speak for himself on these matters. If Bill cannot defend his reputation and what his legacy has given to knifemaking then it is up to us to protect and honor it. Although we can’t ask Bill I was pretty sure about his steel choices and it was pretty easy for me to get the next best thing:

“Jim, I was under the impression that Bill Scagel was rather particular about his steel, do you know of he used scrap items for his blades (old saw blades files etc...)?
Do you mind if I share your answer with others, who may or may not have this information?


Kevin:

Part of one of the chapters in my book addresses the steels Bill Scagel used and I will [pre-publication no less ! ]share this with you and yes, you may share this with others.

First off, he never used junk or scrap steel, no OCS [ old chevy springs ]. In fact I never saw any evidence whatever of any type of "scrap" laying around his place like most of us seem to have a pile of "rust" lurking around somewhere on our premises.

He was exacting in his steel requirements, one could say to the point of being obsessive. During the early 20's and 30's, and up until the beginning of WW2, about 1941-45, his main source was what was then called "Swedish Silver Steel". As you well know, this product contained no actual silver but many people did think it did contain silver. This was a cast steel which he purchased from Jessop's Steel in Birmingham, England. [ no relation to the Jessop's Steel Mill in Washington, PA although it is possible they could have been some distant shirt-tail relation]. Bill considered this to be the finest cutlery steel available at that time.

I have some unfinished blades of his that have stampings on them marked "cast steel"; and "Jessops -England; ".He did buy from other steel suppliers; I have letters of correspondence that he bought steel from Timken Steel Company out of New York via the Detroit branch and also from Ryerson Steel Co. of New York.

During the War years of 1942-45, which paradoxically were his most productive years, he had difficulty obtaining enough good steel to fill his orders for his commando knives and none at all from Jessops in England. [Expressed these sentiments in a letter to Bo Randall ] He had a good friend who was a salesman for a steel Firm in Louisiana who made frequent trips to Muskegon during the War years and would bring Bill a good supply of used bearing races which Bill found were suitable for cutlery.

Muskegon was a very busy port in those years and was home to Continental Motors, Sealed Power, The Norge, and Campbell Wyant & Cannon Foundry. Bill had some close friends who worked at these Companies and ocassionally one of them would "garner" a piece of steel from these firms and bring it to Bill asking him to make a knife from it. Bill would grumble a bit about it and would "spark" the steel on a grind wheel and pronounce it fit or unfit to make a knife from it. He was a master at this sparking procedure and interpretation there of. Several old timers who I interviewed years ago who knew Bill very well informed me that he would never stamp his name or logo on such a piece of steel brought to him and for years I held this view and I still believe this. However I did finally find on one occasion the usual exception to almost any rule:
I obtained a well-marked knife from a person who said his father worked at CMC and brought just such a piece of steel to Bill who created a fine and marked knife.
There is no way of knowing the number of knives created this way.

Finally, I want to remove all doubt from the reader's mind that Bill ever used any scrap or unknown material for his knives. As I said, he was most particular about the steel he used. I have heard all the stories about him using files, old car springs etc. Not true !” - James Lucie


None of us can know for certain how Bill Scagel would have thought of this thread, but I have seen the paperwork documenting how much effort the man when through to get exactly the right new steel he insisted on using. I have to think that anybody that particular about it would want that effort acknowledged and recognized in his work and would want his reputation to be that of a craftsmen who insisted on knowing his material was the best he could obtain.

I would like to thank my good friend Jim Lucie for taking time to provide this information in advance while he is working on what I am certain will be the definitive text on William Scagel:thumbup:
 
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Kevin, I bet there just wasn't much scrap steel around in that time period because of the two wars. Most went to manufacture ammunition, bombs, and a whole realm of war toys. I also seem to recall ship loads of scrap steel going to Japan that later showed up in the form of battle ships and planes at Pearl Harbor.

I bet most the scrap steel back then was more in the form of iron anyway.
 
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Greg Obach said:
your right Dustin... there is room for all types and philosophies ... ! :thumbup:
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I agree! :)

I don't see why any single philosophy should have to try so hard to dominate.

People are going to "believe" whatever they choose to believe, and that's great! It takes all kinds to keep this art alive. That's the beauty of it!

However, it seems like when ever one perspective is put on the defensive through an offence, the offended perspective, logic or philosophy has the right to defend itself, even if it means making a counter offense,… if that‘s what it chooses to do.

I think someone once said that,... "Formal logic has little to do with swaying public opinion",... and so be it. :)

In the end,... "society" will recognize that which is of value and that which isn‘t.
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
Please understand Bruce that this is not meant to take you to task but to correct the record on a common misconception so no offense is intended. Also please believe me that I quit caring about this steel source debate a long time ago, I have stated on this forum that I play with scrap occasionally myself, but the Scagel thing caught my attention. We can go to Mr. Lovelace and I don’t know much about early Randalls, Bill Scagel is no longer able to speak for himself on these matters. If Bill cannot defend his reputation and what his legacy has given to knifemaking then it is up to us to protect and honor it. Although we can’t ask Bill I was pretty sure about his steel choices and it was pretty easy for me to get the next best thing:

“Jim, I was under the impression that Bill Scagel was rather particular about his steel, do you know of he used scrap items for his blades (old saw blades files etc...)?
Do you mind if I share your answer with others, who may or may not have this information?


Kevin:

Part of one of the chapters in my book addresses the steels Bill Scagel used and I will [pre-publication no less ! ]share this with you and yes, you may share this with others.

First off, he never used junk or scrap steel, no OCS [ old chevy springs ]. In fact I never saw any evidence whatever of any type of "scrap" laying around his place like most of us seem to have a pile of "rust" lurking around somewhere on our premises.

He was exacting in his steel requirements, one could say to the point of being obsessive. During the early 20's and 30's, and up until the beginning of WW2, about 1941-45, his main source was what was then called "Swedish Silver Steel". As you well know, this product contained no actual silver but many people did think it did contain silver. This was a cast steel which he purchased from Jessop's Steel in Birmingham, England. [ no relation to the Jessop's Steel Mill in Washington, PA although it is possible they could have been some distant shirt-tail relation]. Bill considered this to be the finest cutlery steel available at that time.

I have some unfinished blades of his that have stampings on them marked "cast steel"; and "Jessops -England; ".He did buy from other steel suppliers; I have letters of correspondence that he bought steel from Timken Steel Company out of New York via the Detroit branch and also from Ryerson Steel Co. of New York.

During the War years of 1942-45, which paradoxically were his most productive years, he had difficulty obtaining enough good steel to fill his orders for his commando knives and none at all from Jessops in England. [Expressed these sentiments in a letter to Bo Randall ] He had a good friend who was a salesman for a steel Firm in Louisiana who made frequent trips to Muskegon during the War years and would bring Bill a good supply of used bearing races which Bill found were suitable for cutlery.

Muskegon was a very busy port in those years and was home to Continental Motors, Sealed Power, The Norge, and Campbell Wyant & Cannon Foundry. Bill had some close friends who worked at these Companies and ocassionally one of them would "garner" a piece of steel from these firms and bring it to Bill asking him to make a knife from it. Bill would grumble a bit about it and would "spark" the steel on a grind wheel and pronounce it fit or unfit to make a knife from it. He was a master at this sparking procedure and interpretation there of. Several old timers who I interviewed years ago who knew Bill very well informed me that he would never stamp his name or logo on such a piece of steel brought to him and for years I held this view and I still believe this. However I did finally find on one occasion the usual exception to almost any rule:
I obtained a well-marked knife from a person who said his father worked at CMC and brought just such a piece of steel to Bill who created a fine and marked knife.
There is no way of knowing the number of knives created this way.

Finally, I want to remove all doubt from the reader's mind that Bill ever used any scrap or unknown material for his knives. As I said, he was most particular about the steel he used. I have heard all the stories about him using files, old car springs etc. Not true !” - James Lucie


None of us can know for certain how Bill Scagel would have thought of this thread, but I have seen the paperwork documenting how much effort the man when through to get exactly the right new steel he insisted on using. I have to think that anybody that particular about it would want that effort acknowledged and recognized in his work and would want his reputation to be that of a craftsmen who insisted on knowing his material was the best he could obtain.

I would like to thank my good friend Jim Lucie for taking time to provide this information in advance while he is working on what I am certain will be the definitive text on William Scagel:thumbup:
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Kevin, When Bill Scagel could not easily obtain new steel he clearly went for Scrap/Junk/Known Steel according to the letter your presenting. Like I had stated earlier, its not a matter of where you get steel, its a matter of knowing what your getting. There is no argument about knife makers wanting the best steel, just sometimes the best steel has been tossed by somebody else. I have seen some pretty fantastic steel come out of the waste bin of industrial users and also seen some great tools come out of the junkyard. In fact the anvil of a pretty well known maker was found in the dump and anyone would be proud to have it as its a beauty.



When one gets down to the act that makes a bull a steer the argument is nothing more than a small group of Knife Grinders spreading propaganda about the source of a handful of Knife Forgers steel, something they may or may not know anything about. From this side of the fence it looks like a good way for some knife makers to make claims they have a better product without going head to head in testing or sales, only hype. While most of the members and makers here on the forum tend to show each other respect and write polite like, that is just not the case in the knife industry. Its dog eat dog and I have heard a few 2-19 stories going around about why some knives I would consider junk should sell and often do sell for more than the best knives made by less mouthy Knife makers. Then some newer guys fall into the "believing what they are told" trap and a couple brought the argument onto the forum which got up some feathers including mine. In the end great steel is great steel, no mater where or when its sourced.

According to the definition of some, all the W2 that's going around these days would be classified as Junkyard Steel, Plenty of people would argue that as a fact.
 
Raymond Richard said:
Kevin, I bet there just wasn't much scrap steel around in that time period because of the two wars. Most went to manufacture ammunition, bombs, and a whole realm of war toys. I also seem to recall ship loads of scrap steel going to Japan that later showed up in the form of battle ships and planes at Pearl Harbor.

I bet most the scrap steel back then was more in the form of iron anyway.
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Raymond, There was a fair amount of Ford Spring Steel around to make the odd knife with. Its well understood that a number of the guys on their way to WW2 made their own commando daggers. Even in Kevin's post the letter he got from Jim Lucie stated that Bill Scagel was using scraped Bearing Race to make his knives in that period of time, so clearly there was some steel available, just not much.
 
Raymond Richard said:
I've had the privilege of knowing Wayne for 13 or 14 years and have called him one of my best friends for close to 10 years......

Moving onto junk steel. Something that is treated as a taboo on this forum. Why is that? Is it because there is no easy answer to it?
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Ray, I'll give you the hard, fast answer.

Custom knife collectors, which make up the largest group of custom knife buyers, like to know what steel is in their knives.

If you told me "I think the steel is 5160", I wouldn't buy it for my collection, but I MIGHT probably buy it if I wanted to use the knife.

As far as the OKCA goes, blah frikkin blah.;)

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Wow, it seems like everyone takes personal offense so easily here!
No doubt Wayne Goddard is one of the great contributors to knife making. And the last thing anyone should be doing is slandering him, but looking back though this thread and the one it is referencing I don't really see slander.

All I see is critique (of various qualities) of an article in a magazine, and a few references to some of the methods promoted in a popular beginner's knife making book.

If this community insists that critique of the words of the established greats is unacceptable then I suppose I need to move on, as that philosophy does not mesh well with my own. However I think what this all really comes down to is the problem with communicating on the internet. Tones and real meanings often do not come across as intended, and much is left up to the interpretation of the reader. If one's words are not chosen carefully (and who takes that kind of time on the internet?) a reader could take a comment in a way not at all intended by the author.

I would love it if we could remove egos from the equation and just talk about the passion we all have in common. There should be no forbidden topics, but at the same time we must all be aware of the tendency this medium has to twist everything we say in the worst way possible.
 
I was tremendously influenced by both of Wayne Goddard's books, and actually had the pleasure of speaking with him over the telephone a couple of times. He was a perfect gentleman on both occasions and answered my questions, though they were trivial at best. I also met him at a Blade Show, probably in 2001, and he was very friendly and open with his knowledge. I have nothing but praise for his contribution to the modern bladesmithing world.

I use both new, known steel and scrap steel. I sell knives to some folks who will use them hard and to some folks who are simply collectors. Some of my customers are very knowledgeable about different steels and some couldn't care less. As long as the recipient of your knives knows what to expect from them, I don't see any problems with using either known or scrap steel.

I also agree with whoever it was that said that steel snobs are found on both sides of this discussion, and really add nothing to it, for me.


Todd
 
Bubbanumber1 said:
Kevin, When Bill Scagel could not easily obtain new steel he clearly went for Scrap/Junk/Known Steel according to the letter your presenting. Like I had stated earlier, its not a matter of where you get steel, its a matter of knowing what your getting...
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Please understand that my post was not about the debate in this thread, it was about understanding how Scagel really approached his craft, due to this, the post may be off topic, and for that I apologize. As I said I really couldn’t care less about this steel source debate any more, this thread is hardly the first nor will it be the last, but I thought we could all benefit by setting the record straight on Scagel. I am sorry that you chose to dismiss several paragraphs on how fanatical the man was about using fresh known steel in order to misinterpret one sentence in a way that Jim Lucie had not intended. Jim added it to illustrate yet another example of how particular Bill was. For 3 brief years, in order to survive when new steel was unavailable, Bill resorted to a trusted source within the steel industry for a consistent supply of used steel, Jim made clear he was not a scrap pile kind of guy (more than I can say since I have spent all day today moving mine:rolleyes:). Scagel made no claims of deeper connections with his craft by this necessary recourse; in fact Jim has indicated that he saw it as compromising his usual standards.

Clearly Scagel insisted on new known steel whenever he could, I myself prefer new known steel as well, but have played with some scrap for fun, and have some items without my stamp on them for the same reasons as Bill. With the lengths I have went to in my steel choices when I am gone I certainly know how I would want my methods to be remembered, especially since if the current trend in the steel industry continues we may all be faced with same hard decision Scagel had to make in those few years. :(
 
Raymond Richard said:
Kevin, I bet there just wasn't much scrap steel around in that time period because of the two wars. Most went to manufacture ammunition, bombs, and a whole realm of war toys. I also seem to recall ship loads of scrap steel going to Japan that later showed up in the form of battle ships and planes at Pearl Harbor.

I bet most the scrap steel back then was more in the form of iron anyway.
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So let me be certain I understand what you are saying Raymond. Are you suggesting that Scagel was forced to resort to new steel from very specific mills, in England as well as America, because scrap steel was not available to him? ...

…Well gentlemen, this has been a most interesting little side chat, once again I am sorry for interrupting the main topic, please ignore the distraction and feel free to resume discussing steel source choices.

P.S. more on topic- Wayne for what it is worth I think your input on edge packing, forge carburization, and some other topics in "The Wonders of Knifemaking" should be required reading for any would be bladesmith.
 
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Kevin, thanks to you and Jim for the information on Mr Scagel, that sort of information is very cool and it gives as you said insight into not just what he made but how and why.
 
Steven Garsson wrote:
"Custom knife collectors, which make up the largest group of custom knife buyers, like to know what steel is in their knives."

"If you told me "I think the steel is 5160", I wouldn't buy it for my collection, but I MIGHT probably buy it if I wanted to use the knife."

My expierence does not match up with your observations. it's the users who want to know what is in their knife, the collectors buy for workmanship and originality.... I can't remember when the steel in a knife was an issue for a collector.

My opinion is that you are as dead wrong about the steel issue as you are about the OKCA.

Wayne
 
Wayne G. said:
My experience does not match up with your observations. it's the users who want to know what is in their knife, the collectors buy for workmanship and originality.... I can't remember when the steel in a knife was an issue for a collector.

My opinion is that you are as dead wrong about the steel issue as you are about the OKCA.

Wayne
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They are both a matter of opinion, Wayne...I imagine that I have purchased a lot more knives than you have, and sold more as a dealer....tends to color one's perspective....When I started, people asked for ATS-34, then S30V, now they request CPM 154-CM, also BG42. WRT carbon steels, have seen many requests for 52100 as popularized by Ed Fowler, and in damascus many combinations, but 15n20 as one of the components

You already know what I think about the other issue...dead wrong? Not hardly...Difference of opinion...yeah....Ask the Montana guys who cut their teeth on the OKCA show what they think about it now...dead wrong my ass, amigo.

As always,

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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Tai Goo said:
I think it's already been mentioned, but you can learn a lot about steel in general from salvaging, recycling and using scrap. It's more work, but it pays off in the end.

If you just buy known steel, blindly follow a recipe or a methodology, and assume everything worked the way it's supposed to, because you heard it from so and so... what have you learned?
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:thumbup:Well said, Tai.
As far as I can tell, "mastery" never comes from following a recipe.

Sorry....didn't mean to interrupt.
 
Keep it ON track there Amigos !

Let me remind everyone that this section of bladeforums is public. It aint "Whine and Cheese". I dont care who wants to bust whos balls , Just bust them using language that dont offend the kiddies that come here to learn please.

Thanks Guys

Mark
 
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