Wayne Goddard and so called junk steel......

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Pinoy Knife said:
Ray im still around ..i moved and became a Washingtonian . got a 9-5 job and everything . still make as often as i can ,going out to the shop now to continue what may become a "personal knife" unless someone buy's it then ill have to make another (LOL)
i don't get online as much as i used too beacuse of this job thingy:D
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Matt, Are you still in the lock business? 9 to 5, now you've lost your personal freedom by not working for yourself. :D I plan to do Blade West in September if they send me an application. I'd send you a free pass if I had one.
 
After reading the thread the entire thing seems a little crazy. I can sure see that people wish to defend Wayne Goddard, no problem there. He got many a good knife maker started and probably influenced people that have never even heard his name, most likely everyone on this forum. If I remember right it was Waynes little book that got many people started making grinders for themselves when they couldn't afford one, in NASA talk that's about like taking a step on the moon. It seems he was also a big writer on bladesmithing in Blade Magazine for years and years. Maybe somebody else can comment on that?



I do take acceptation with the term Junkyard Steel as there is just no such thing. In fact there is only two kinds of steel, known and unknown. By known steel I mean just that, you, the person owning the steel knows what it is. That could be because you ordered it from Crucible and it came in a marked box, or because you sourced it in a scrap yard, tool and die shop, or got it from a friend, spark tested it, then tested it for hardness, figured out how to use it, and decided to make a knife out of it.

Often what one finds as scrap is brand new steel that is cut off ends. Currently there are members of this and other forums selling just that, brand new cut off barstock. I recently saw some W1 and remember some John Deere steel awhile back that was new stuff. Just because it was not ordered online and delivered by UPS does not mean anything if the Bladesmith is educated and knows his steel, how to pick it, how to forge it, how to treat it.

Some of the people making knives now days would not know one steel from another and would be out of business if they could not buy steel that was marked by the seller. I don't care either way how a man makes a knife but there is no need to jump on people about how they find and gather steel as long as they know what they are doing. I have in the past paid minimum price for high quality steels just because one guy didn't know what it was and I did. Just because one cannot differentiate steel does not mean another should listen to them about what is good or bad as long as it makes a high quality end product.
 
"Steel Snobs" my behind. I think I know who's being referred to there, and as far as I can tell, none of them have ever disrepected other makers or done anything other than bend over backwards to share reliable, repeatable information.

Speaking strictly for myself, I've read and very much enjoyed Mr. Goddard's works. He's been kind enough to come here several times over the years to address questions about something he said or wrote. He's brought many people to the knife world and will surely be remembered long after he's gone as one of the godfathers of modern knives. I respect him immensely, and I don't know of anyone who doesn't... no matter what kind of knives they like to make, or how they make them.

Once again, I find myself in total agreement with Mr. Goo, who mentioned that sometimes we lose sight of the big picture when we factionize ourselves. The name-calling (that only a very few have resorted to) is just plain stupid and makes us all look like jackasses.

Also once again, I mean no offense to anyone. This is just the opinion of an admitted newbie.
 
point 1,

I'll vouch for Wayne's open mindedness and truthfulness, he taught my Intro to Bladesmithing back in 1995, or 1994... hard to remember now

point 2,

when performance is the main factor in the construction of a blade, I use no recycled material, use no forging, no differential tempering, and send my blades to a very reliable heat treater and ask questions about how much experience said heat treater has with the particular alloy at the particular hardness I want

point 3,

I took orders at Blade 2009 for blades made of Japanese paper, not o1, not ats 34, not s30v, not s7, not 8670m banite, not a8mod, not pattern welded, which tells us that performance is hardly requisite for marketability
 
Tai Goo said:
Thanks Wayne! :)
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Amen.

We walk in the steps of giants around here, and the pipsqueaks are easily ignored. They won't be here long anyway. Sometimes I think we forget that very few makers really have the commitment to keep working at it. Those who don't just fade away.

But I do miss the wisdom of many who have simply thrown up their hands and left this forum because of the occasional prevalence of ignorant people thinking they're not. Or maybe they've left because they're simply too busy to sit here. ;)
 
I’ve been trying to get my thoughts together about finding a piece of steel, testing it and then making a useful knife or collector item out of it.

I think it comes down to getting under the surface of what steel is about when it comes to knife blades. Nothing wrong with someone who only buys new stainless or other bar stock and has their blades heat treated, it’s just that their knowledge about working with steel is shallow.

The maker working in a backyard smithy testing some found steel is getting right into one of the secrets of the universe. God built the universe so that as it aged the different elements separated out. If I understand it right iron is the residue of all the other metallic miracles / reactions. Actually, that means the earth is made of left over junk. That shiny new stainless bar stock I occasionally use is mostly made of the junk iron ore that mankind scrapes up off the surface of the earth. The iron is melted down with some chromium and other junk metal found on the earth to create “new” bar stock.

Just something to think about.
 
Yep, it's all recycled junk by now!

... Although I think the newer steel is junkier than some of the older stuff.
 
I think a lot of the problem comes from people with very limited knowledge wanting to make great knives and NOT having the ability to judge steel. They come here wanting to make a knife and asking about mower blades, hardware store bar stock and bed frames. I feel these people are better off starting with a known steel if the want immediate results. The vast majority are not going to take the time or have the proper equipment to properly ID what type of steel they have.

I have been around steel all my life. Mostly low carbon. I do NOT feel comfortable with my ability to judge steel as to its properties for making outstanding blades. In this area I am a bit "shallow" For now I will stick with known steel. I greatly admire those who have learned the ability to CORRECTLY ID and use found steel. As time goes on I hope to develop the ability to correctly ID steels.

Wayne, has many many tears of experience and the ability to use found steel. How to test it and judge the end results. Most of us are far more lacking in this. As I see how different steels of know make up respond I will learn the ability to make these judgments.

A lot of it boils down to an individuals philosophy. NOT who is right or wrong. It really pains me to see a small quote of a long statement become a wedge in a great community of artist and craftsmen.
 
I have jump on the mystery steel threads many times over the years,many know my thoughts...Tai has it correct all steel starts as a raw untested material.once the mix is set in the crucible it is tested and more elements added untill it is what the manufacturer wants the alloy to be...

Heck legend has it that the first bowie was from a file with a piece of the heavens (meteorite) added in...

If you want to see some high dollar scrap steel knives try buying a original Loveless or Randall,not to mention a Scagell..

If knives need only be made from known steel and known quenchants many of the top name and lesser named makers now would never have made the first knife..

If blade quench quality was so important to the uneducated buyers why then are so many $3.00 Pakistan folders sold everyday(the parts alone will cost us more to make the same knife)..

We live in a throw away sociaty now,most dont look at the quality or how long it lasts.This goes for everything we buy now.if eveything we bought was quality and lasted our lifetime,industry would have shut down many years ago.

industry is what has demanded steel of a certain chemical makeup to be produced consistantly with a quenchant of a certain chemical makeup and produced consistantly,for ease and also so they know that all the hundreds of thousands of parts made each day are consistant.They all have their steel of choice and quenchant,but they had to experiment with different recipes years ago as a flegling begging industry,no one said this is what you use and this is how you use it.That is why they spend millions of dollars with chemists and scientist on payrolls to find the best for their application...

When I started 17 years ago the only advice I had was heat the steel to non magnetic quench in burnt motor oil and then when cool put in a vice and hit with a hammer if it broke it would make a knife,then put in a oven at 350 for 2 hours and if still to hard to sharpen then bump the temp on the oven up 25 deg. and do it again,keep repeating until my desired results were reached.I had no place to buy known steel and didnt have the knowledge to use it correctly even if I did..I would look at what the steel was made into and what it was designed to do like cut trees into boards all day long,should be tough as trees are harder than flesh,and that is how I started figuring things out..

All unknown steel started out as a known steel at some point in its life.now with the internet all you gotta do is find a manufacturers mark and numbers on the party and you can find out what it is made from most of the time,no guessing,and you can find that info in about as much time as it takes to post here on the forums,simple enough,then ask how to heat treat that steel...

Ray and me have been great friends for years and I respect everything about him and his knives..Wayne is a legend,pure and simple,the thing most forget is that his book has stood the test of time and was written way before the internet,and all the symposiums were knowledge is passed so freely.Hes way ahead of his time.to some his books look old school now but they forget that the old school was almost high tech at one time.

How many remember the first car put together in dads garage from anything scrounged and the pride when you hit the strip with it the first time,that led to a million dollar industry that still mixes and customizes parts...

As for the baking...If master bakers didnt experiment with different ingrediants we wouldnt have so many cookbooks on the market.and just because you go by the letter from that reciepy doesnt always mean perfect outcome of the meal.many variables are involved and a recipey is just a starting point for the mix.many store bought mixes give different times and mixes for high alltitude or low and so on.Same holds true for steel and quenchants.

So in conclusion..Start making knives how ever you have to and or want to,do your homework and then if you cant figure it out ask questions.If you wonder if it will work try it and if it doesnt do get upset you learned a valuable lesson.Then as you grow you will find the steel and quenchants that work best for you in your invirenment and with your knowledge.Just because this method works best in one part of the country doesnt mean it will in another..

We are all knifemakers in the end no matter how we started or make knives today,it is the journey and knowledge we learn along the way that is important..so Just have fun make the best you can and quit fussing with everybody that this or that isnt correct.ideas are passed around and that is how we all advance.dont be afraid to try something new and if it doesnt work then try it another way till it does or is a total failure..

To long winded now..sorry.Just my 2 cents worth.

Bruce
 
Although my approach to this stuff is quite different now from how Wayne does things... I gladly admit that I own both of his books and his cable damascus hunter video, and enjoyed all three very much! :thumbup: :)

To me, there is a certain allure to using old stuff, but I put a lot of time into testing, including getting lab tests done on steel...even with all the new/known steel I buy... so I prefer to buy several hundred pounds-thousands of pounds at a time. I've got a lifetime supply. Well, except for the new CruForge ;) :) But that's just MY preference, I don't think it's right or wrong in the grand scheme of things, just right for me in my shop :)

Wayne has been a big part of the bladesmithing world for a long time, and whether you want to follow his practices or not, I feel a good many of us owe him a great deal of respect. When Wayne was learning this stuff, you couldn't log onto a forum and become a knifemaking expert after a few hours of glancing through posts!!!

edited to add: the hammer loops AND the anvil base in my avatar are a direct result from Wayne's books :)
 
I think that there are a lot of "Modern Myths", generated out of "shallow" mindedness, certain misplaced "science" and "idealistic thinking“... about what is best, better, or worst, proper/improper, etc. I also think that these types of "value judgments" are really outside of the realm of true science.

Nonsense is nonsense, no matter how much dead science you put behind it.
 
Too many guys spend too much time picking the flycrap outta the pepper.
Thanks Bruce and Tai.
 
Hi Friends,

I tried to avoid reading this thread, as I've read through a few along similar lines and not really enjoyed them. Actually, I accidentally clicked on it when I was trying to click on another, and here I am. Not that my testimonial is of any value, but....

I'm glad I learned about known steels and some sources for them and can focus my learning curve on knife making specifics. I deeply appreciate learning (or having the opportunity to) about the metallurgy and the folks who have developed that knowledge base and make it available to us! On the other hand....

Even though I haven't really developed an eye for reading sparks, I still try to from time to time. I have an absolute blast heating a "junk" chunk of steel to nonmagnetic (what a trip) blazing red and quenching it in water or oil then snapping it like a piece of glass (or not if the magic didn't work) then heating it slowly (maybe from an end) and watching the colors run and then not being able to crack it in two anymore (more of a trip).

If successful, it likely has become some sort of chisel or tool I or my high school applied art students will use. For instance, maybe it is for stone carving. If the point blunts out too fast maybe we'll fire up the torch and go through the HT motions again, but this time we won't let the colors run so far toward the blues, we'll hold them back closer to the straw colors. But, if the point chipped or fractured (seems to happen less with us) it'd be the other way around.

Ray, so you're a fourth generation bladesmith, WOW! I forgot about that. Now that's a trip!!!!!

All the best, Phil
 
Tai Goo said:
I think that there are a lot of "Modern Myths", generated out of "shallow" mindedness, certain misplaced "science" and "idealistic thinking“... about what is best, better, or worst, proper/improper, etc. I also think that these types of "value judgments" are really outside of the realm of true science.
Nonsense is nonsense, no matter how much dead science you put behind it.
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such as ?
 
Karl B. Andersen said:
Don't get him started.......
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if he's gonna stir the pot, he should own the stink;)

I have no problem with drawing "myths" out into the light, it's better for all of us to get rid of the "nonsence" that keeps us all from atleast reading out of the same playbook
 
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To keep it simple Mr. Goddard is awesome and I think a new knife maker can save a lot of headaches by using a known steel. I hope I am not defying scientific or spiritual laws in thinking both of these are true statements. lol

Also, though I love using a known steel (I'm still a newb so there's plenty for me to learn anyways) and want PID controlled salt pots I think learning from Tai would be an amazing experience. Somewhere I got the crazy notion there's room enough for all types of thinking and philosophies.
 
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