Wayne Goddard and so called junk steel......

Status
Not open for further replies.
Mark Williams said:
Keep it ON track there Amigos !

Let me remind everyone that this section of bladeforums is public. It aint "Whine and Cheese". I dont care who wants to bust whos balls , Just bust them using language that dont offend the kiddies that come here to learn please.

Thanks Guys

Mark
Click to expand...

Like the first post in this thread perhaps?;)

Raymond Richard said:
.....a lot negative bull shit about it the last few years..
Click to expand...

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
OH NO YOU DIDN'T! RAMPANT INDIVIDUALITY IN KNIFE MAKING FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP!

i agree :)

Jake
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
Please understand that my post was not about the debate in this thread, it was about understanding how Scagel really approached his craft, due to this, the post may be off topic, and for that I apologize. As I said I really couldn’t care less about this steel source debate any more, this thread is hardly the first nor will it be the last, but I thought we could all benefit by setting the record straight on Scagel. I am sorry that you chose to dismiss several paragraphs on how fanatical the man was about using fresh known steel in order to misinterpret one sentence in a way that Jim Lucie had not intended. Jim added it to illustrate yet another example of how particular Bill was. For 3 brief years, in order to survive when new steel was unavailable, Bill resorted to a trusted source within the steel industry for a consistent supply of used steel, Jim made clear he was not a scrap pile kind of guy (more than I can say since I have spent all day today moving mine:rolleyes:). Scagel made no claims of deeper connections with his craft by this necessary recourse; in fact Jim has indicated that he saw it as compromising his usual standards.

Clearly Scagel insisted on new known steel whenever he could, I myself prefer new known steel as well, but have played with some scrap for fun, and have some items without my stamp on them for the same reasons as Bill. With the lengths I have went to in my steel choices when I am gone I certainly know how I would want my methods to be remembered, especially since if the current trend in the steel industry continues we may all be faced with same hard decision Scagel had to make in those few years. :(
Click to expand...


Kevin, In the end he and everybody else is looking for great steel, not just OK steel. The problem is many of the socalled experts now days do not have a background in working with steel, they have the internet and a phone.


I don't even disagree with you about your conclusions. I just disagree with some of the 2-19 stories that some of the newer knife makers tell uneducated customers in order to sell them product.
 
I also want to say that I do not use 'mystery steel'. I know what I'm working with,
whether it's W2, 1084/15N20, 01, old file or saw blade.
 
Henry David Thoreau makes a statement along these lines:
Two young men complete their basic education.
One goes to the academy to study the science of metals and upon graduation his father gives him a Rogers pen knife.

The other mines his own ore, smelts his steel and makes his own knife -

Which one is most likely to cut his finger?
 
Kevin,I wasnt trying to say anything negative about Mr.Scagel or the others,Just new I had read that he did use some not bought off the shelf steel..sorry to anyone I offended...I do know many a maker started with the odd piece of unknown steel and found what they liked the best in a known steel...

Bruce
 
Ed, it's the guy that didn't go to the academy and made his own knife right? He'll be using his, probably several times a day and likely for things he shouldn't. Sooner or later it's going to happen. He will slip and cut his hand, look around to see if anybody saw it happen and think to himself "Man that was stupid!" The other guy is going to stick his knife in a drawer somewhere and forget it since he isn't a knife type of guy anyway. :D

This maker went to the academy, actually four of them before I convinced myself I had taken about all the humiliation I could stand. I have a great deal of respect for the education of others, whether they earned it formally or earned it the "hard way". To me, neither way is bad. What is bad is when the education stops and the mind is closed to good information.

We picked up a bunch of CPM S30V today and it will go in a rack in the shop that contains some 1095, 5160 and 1084 and is next to a pile of steel that has yet to be identified. Springs, saw blades, couple of pieces of cable, fence post, etc that is fun to forge and will make a good knife one day. They won't get the Twin Blades logo or be sold unless the steel can be identified and we are comfortable with the heat treatment.

A maker can make a knife out of whatever he wants, but if he sells it, he needs to be comfortable that it won't damage his reputation in some way.
 
Good thoughts Harry: With our last seminar which is posted up on our form, I feel we have achieved a lot of knowledge through testing of the seminar test blade.

It is easy to figure we have learned it all, then one day a huge amount of knowledge that has been right in front of your eyes all the time reveals itself to you and you are suddenly aware of more that awaits our discovery.

I do not feel that there is anyone qualified to defend William Scagel, nor is defense necessary, his knives speak for themselves. Did he experiment? Absolutely, we all did and if we are not experimenting now we are nothing but parasites feeding on the past.

The only challenge to the legacy of William Scagel are the counterfeiters who seek to gain by making and putting inferior knives on the market with his name and stamp on them, some can craft the surface, but only a precious few even begin to understand the soul of his knives.
 
William Scagel did not use "junk steel" in his knives -- according to "Scagel - The Man and His Knives" by Harry McEvoy, page 13: "Each...was hand forged out of the finest imported tool steel or cutlery steel he could obtain." I have also read that if someone brought him some steel to make a knife out of, he *might* use it, but he would never stamp it with his trademarks (I thought it was in this same book, but I cannot find it right now - I'll add a reference later when I find it). Scagel also made many kinds of iron and steelwork other than cutting tools - I have no doubt he used many kinds of steel for these works - but he was quite particular about his steel for his cutting tools.

Ah, here it is - it's on page 24 - same book - part of a quote from Bo Randall: "Scagel never compromised on quality or workmanship. If someone brought him a piece of steel out of which to make a knife, he might go ahead and use it, but he would never stamp his name and hallmark into the blade unless he knew it was of the very best quality."

It should be noted that Scagel's knives were popular with those who knew about them because of their unequaled performance at the time - being easy to put a razor edge on, yet holding that edge for a long time. He quite understood that to get the most out of steel you *must* know exactly what the hell you're working with - and furthermore, you must be able to depend on having an entirely predictable steel formulation every time. Unfortunately, he took his tempering secrets with him.

-- Dwight
 
Last edited:
Bruce Evans said:
Kevin,I wasnt trying to say anything negative about Mr.Scagel or the others,Just new I had read that he did use some not bought off the shelf steel..sorry to anyone I offended...I do know many a maker started with the odd piece of unknown steel and found what they liked the best in a known steel...

Bruce
Click to expand...

Bruce, no problem at all, I knew you were not saying anything negative and could see the compliment you were paying Scagel in referencing him, and how were you to know when the myth that he worked with scrap is indeed so prevalent. And do understand that was the purpose of my post, to help shed some light on the topic from sources that have a rare deeper insight into Scagel’s work, and help in correcting long standing misconceptions.

Ed Fowler said:
…I do not feel that there is anyone qualified to defend William Scagel, nor is defense necessary, his knives speak for themselves. Did he experiment? Absolutely, we all did and if we are not experimenting now we are nothing but parasites feeding on the past.

The only challenge to the legacy of William Scagel are the counterfeiters who seek to gain by making and putting inferior knives on the market with his name and stamp on them, some can craft the surface, but only a precious few even begin to understand the soul of his knives.
Click to expand...

Ed, why do I feel I could have posted something praising your work and you would still want your pound of flesh? Perhaps nobody is qualified to defend William Scagel, although I am not sure what those qualifications would be or who determines them, but I feel that all of us as members of society have an obligation to defend the truth, perhaps you feel differently about such things. The rumor that Scagel used leaf springs, saw blades or files for his knives is quite prevalent and not something unique to this discussion and thus I, and certainly our mutual friend Dr. Lucie, feel that it is necessary to correct false information. Perhaps you have a different perspective on what information needs correcting and what myths are better than reality.

I wholeheartedly agree with your support of experimentation, as long as it is well structured experimentation, capable of producing verifiably useful results that can save all the rest of us from your condemnation as “nothing but parasites”.

I have had a privileged opportunity to examine more of Scagel’s best pieces at my leisure than most, the blades are steel, the man had a soul and we can't define that with our opinions. Your methods are different than mine, I study knives and steel but haven’t worked out yet how to “speak” with them, instead I speak with people from whom I can get the most accurate information. I never spoke with Bill Scagel, perhaps you did? But we both know a man who did personally know Scagel, spoke to him, and he is probably more passionate about the man’s legacy than either of us, and I know it is important to him that these facts are known. And that is why he shared a preview of what he considers one of his greatest life works with us. I think I will let that, and the documented facts in it speak to me, and for itself.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top