What is reasonable and legal?

[mlmcasual]

thats curious, why would you spend 1k if you don't know the risks? Worst case the risk is Survive goes belly up you lose all your money? How is that not clear? The business model is exactly the same as any project on Kickstarter, some do really well, other don't. You assume a level of risk when you back those projects... to say you didn't understand the risks seems either naive or completely disingenuous. If you truly don't understand that, then you should ask for a full refund, sit on the sidelines and wait until things stabilize.

I feel like the starter program was extremely explicit and frankly offered somewhat of a caution or warning. At the time, I chose to not put anything on order because I won't buy things off of renderings. I preordered my wife a 3.5 after one night thinking f-it, if i never see it then so be it. When the 5.1's came up for pre-sale in dec, I jumped on one because they at that time had full fledged photos. These were choices I made. I also really want a GSO 6 but need to spend the money elsewhere right now, so I held off... these are adult life choices...I don't understand why they are so hard for some people...

Well, get your facts right first before you try to speak for me. First a kickstarter model has a pledge system that has to be met before your charged, not an upfront purchase. So I don't even know where you get that fallacy from and you only prove right from the start to have little credibility. Second, I didn't "truly" understand the risk of indefinite lead-times extending to two years and beyond especially when the POS said "could take more then a couple of months" especially when the lead times where still much less then a year at the POS. And thirdly your oversimplification take it or leave it attitude is weak. If I have money sitting for a year and half don't lecture to me about just take your money and leave attitude. You obviously run your finances like your run your mouth which is your deal. I EARNED my place to weigh in the risk's and figuring out where the cuttoff line is. My time and my money give me that. So take your condescension and put it somewhere to someone that cares. I don't.

 

[redwood22]

Well, gets your facts right first before you try to speak for me. First a kickstarter model has a pledge system that has to be met before your charged, not an upfront purchase. So I don't even know where you get that fallacy from. Second, I didn't "truly" understand the risk of indefinite lead-times extending to two years and beyond especially when the POS said "could take more then a couple of months" especially when the lead times where still much less then a year at the POS. And thirdly your oversimplification take it or leave it attitude is weak. If I have money sitting for a year and half don't lecture to me about just take your money and leave attidue. I EARNED my place to weigh in the risk's and figuring out where the cuttoff line is. My time and my money give me that.

wasn't speaking for you, just myself. I asked you a question...why would you spend so much if you didn't understand the risk. They didn't promise delivery timelines... That would be one of the red flags that has been brought up...As for the kickstarter comparison, the pledge requirement and then charging has a cutoff date, and then you are charged. In fact I pledged a month ago to something and got charged 2 weeks ago? so i guess if 2 weeks makes a huge difference in the span of the year you have waited, then I apologize for the analogy. But at the end of your statement you basically made my original point. The argument is your pissed its taking longer then you thought, but you aren't willing to just pull out because you want the knife you signed up for. Cool, I thought you were looking for comparative business models, to asses the success rate and deduce your exact current risk level....this is impossible to do... I tried to compare it to kickstarter campaigns to help explain the risk, since that was your original question? But now you are mad at me? I guess I post too often in the wrong sub-forum so my opinion is invalidated **shrugs**

 

[KELAMA]

If anyone here would like to read another excellent example of what happens when a thread get's started over Survive!'s business practices, & the onslaught that follows, once their fan boy's show up to the party:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1363283-Survive-Knives/page4

^ See if you can find the common denominator between these 2 threads. Read Rev Devil's comment (post 69).

There is absolutely, ZERO objectivity from some of these guys.

 

[Standard78]

If anyone here would like to read another excellent example of what happens when a thread get's started over Survive!'s business practices, & the onslaught that follows, once their fan boy's show up to the party:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1363283-Survive-Knives/page4

^ See if you can find the common denominator between these 2 threads. Read Rev Devil's comment (post 69).

There is absolutely, ZERO objectivity from some of these guys.

Leave it to you to bring up old crap!
Yeah I'll admit I was out of line in that thread and I did send an apology to the person I was rude to.
If you read any of my posts on this thread, you'll notice that I wasn't defending this company in any way so your "fan boy" BS is weak.

10 more days and we'll get to see if you're a man of your word, or if you're full of crap like usual.

See ya later!!

 

[grogimus]

The question this thread keeps bringing to mind.. do I go for the old standby canvas micarta on the 4.5, or try out the micro textured G10? 4.5 preorder that is.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[trevitrace]

If anyone here would like to read another excellent example of what happens when a thread get's started over Survive!'s business practices, & the onslaught that follows, once their fan boy's show up to the party:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1363283-Survive-Knives/page4

^ See if you can find the common denominator between these 2 threads. Read Rev Devil's comment (post 69).

There is absolutely, ZERO objectivity from some of these guys.

^^^ Enters from stage right, post's, an UNRELATED reference, slinks away.


Edit: Something fervent!!

 

[mlmcasual]

So much Demagoguery here.
SK! doesn't need defending, the facts do.. And that should really be what discussions are based around. Whether you are a die hard Fan of SK the business, or knives... or a staunch critic, or somewhere in between.

 

[Phixt]

"I feel strongly about this and will continue to present my position until S!K straightens out their business or ceases operations." Statements like this one scream introspective issues, and there are a lot of them here.

The team at S!K is collaborating with names like Nathan Carothers to get their heat treat next to perfection, so if you know little to nothing about knives it would be wise to post little to nothing.

 

[mlmcasual]

"I feel strongly about this and will continue to present my position until S!K straightens out their business or ceases operations." Statements like this one scream introspective issues, and there are a lot of them here.

The team at S!K is collaborating with names like Nathan Carothers to get their heat treat next to perfection, so if you know little to nothing about knives it would be wise to post little to nothing.

Please don't Troll and make things worse..

 

[craytab]

The word "consensus" to me sounds like bad math. What does it really matter? The only people who's house is riding on survive is them. If you are going to make or break based on survive, your hobby has gotten out of control. I personally would not take the jump on a survive knife. The product is more than fine and well worth the cost. The business is just not something I can get behind. They are selling more than a knife. Just because I don't subscribe doesn't mean others shouldn't. That is your choice.

 

[Casinostocks]

MLM: this is the 191st post on this thread. There are well over 150 different answers ranging from calm and articulated (all by me ) to manic and batsh*t crazy (by the persons who shall be left anonymous!). You can analyze this till the cows come home but the answer is still the same and you should know the answer by now, which I propose to you that you had guessed correctly from the beginning: there is no set and accurate production to fulfillment time table. The time scale quoted on the S!K website, although a goal has been missed by wiiide margins so far and will probably continue to be so till the end of this year and well into the next until the owner of the business hires enough people whom he can trust to be able to sharpen and finish the products in the same stringent and high standards as he does. Furthermore, he is NOT actively looking for other investors, dealers and distributors. The way which he is conducting his business seems to be, rightly or wrongly, his preferred method of doing business. You can bring the whole class of Harvard Business School MBA faculty of 2016 into this thread to highlight as to why he's wrong and he may still decide to carry one with the status quo! So in conclusion, it is my opinion that you are just fishing and deep down you both know the questions and the answers to your own questions. Deny, if it makes you please... Your prerogative!

I got into S!K in March of 2016 and during less than 3 months, I have had 5 different S!K knives go through my hands, out of which I still have 2 in my possession plus 2 more on preorders which is not included in the said tally. I intend to buy, sell and trade S!K products in addition to another currently favorite brand of mine. The point I am making is that it is NOT impossible to get your hands on S!K but requires both patience and diligence. Oh and I have achieved all this so far by staying away from eBay! During this past weekend, I had cased two other GSO models listed on eBay although sold (to others) for a premium as compared to MSRP but still in a reasonable price range in this era of scarce supplies and high demand. This post is not necessarily directed at you but to let others who may be interested to know that getting hold of a Survive! knife is not impossible and when the manufacturer can not meet the demand, effectively they are losing short term revenue because the buoyant secondary market quenches some of the demand which would naturally go to them, if they had picked up the pace.

In closing, as I have repeatedly stated before and to answer to your question referring to your legal standing in the sh*t hits the fan kind of scenario: VERY LITTLE TO NONE! If this does not inspire confidence in you and your ilk, or some of you gents have any issues with the Co because of the methodology of their business model from start to finish and in between, then get out of your preorder rotation as Survive! to this date has been nothing but forthcoming in issuing refunds. Not one case anywhere pointing to the contrary and that is a FACT since you claim to be a fact based person. To recap: currently, there is not solid time table (despite the what is stated on their website) and you have the option to cash out and move on.

Personally speaking, I will be preordering more models and will be dabbling in even more S!K on the secondary level. My moniker is clearly indicative of my Buy/Sell/Trade Modus Operandi.

 

[mlmcasual]

MLM: this is the 191st post on this thread. There are well over 150 different answers ranging from calm and articulated (all by me ) to manic and batsh*t crazy (by the persons who shall be left anonymous!). You can analyze this till the cows come home but the answer is still the same and you should know the answer by now, which I propose to you that you had guessed correctly from the beginning: there is no set and accurate production to fulfillment time table. The time scale quoted on the S!K website, although a goal has been missed by wiiide margins so far and will probably continue to be so till the end of this year and well into the next until the owner of the business hires enough people whom he can trust to be able to sharpen and finish the products in the same stringent and high standards as he does. Furthermore, he is NOT actively looking for other investors, dealers and distributors. The way which he is conducting his business seems to be, rightly or wrongly, his preferred method of doing business. You can bring the whole class of Harvard Business School MBA faculty of 2016 into this thread to highlight as to why he's wrong and he may still decide to carry one with the status quo! So in conclusion, it is my opinion that you are just fishing and deep down you both know the questions and the answers to your own questions. Deny, if it makes you please... Your prerogative!

I got into S!K in March of 2016 and during less than 3 months, I have had 5 different S!K knives go through my hands, out of which I still have 2 in my possession plus 2 more on preorders which is not included in the said tally. I intend to buy, sell and trade S!K products in addition to another currently favorite brand of mine. The point I am making is that it is NOT impossible to get your hands on S!K but requires both patience and diligence. Oh and I have achieved all this so far by staying away from eBay! During this past weekend, I had cased two other GSO models listed on eBay although sold (to others) for a premium as compared to MSRP but still in a reasonable price range in this era of scarce supplies and high demand. This post is not necessarily directed at you but to let others who may be interested to know that getting hold of a Survive! knife is not impossible and when the manufacturer can not meet the demand, effectively they are losing short term revenue because the buoyant secondary market quenches some of the demand which would naturally go to them, if they had picked up the pace.

In closing, as I have repeatedly stated before and to answer to your question referring to your legal standing in the sh*t hits the fan kind of scenario: VERY LITTLE TO NONE! If this does not inspire confidence in you and your ilk, or some of you gents have any issues with the Co because of the methodology of their business model from start to finish and in between, then get out of your preorder rotation as Survive! to this date has been nothing but forthcoming in issuing refunds. Not one case anywhere pointing to the contrary and that is a FACT since you claim to be a fact based person. To recap: currently, there is not solid time table (despite the what is stated on their website) and you have the option to cash out and move on.


Personally speaking, I will be preordering more models and will be dabbling in even more S!K on the secondary level. My moniker is clearly indicative of my Buy/Sell/Trade Modus Operandi.

You are probably right, I think I got my answer about 10 pages ago.
But personally, I don't care if there are 5,000 posts on the subject and I have no control over this thread anyway. That's the whole point of an Open Forums. Who am I, or you, or anyone but the MODS to say how much people can talk here? even if it means beating a dead horse to death BF have given people a format of discussion. You don't see SK! critics going over to SK!'s Umpteenth "let me count the ways I love Thee oh SK" fan thread and say hey.. "you'v guys praised them enough" now knock it off. As long as people are respectful towards each other and are grounded in the facts and can present evidence to back up claims It's all good.
I find it helpful to get opinions outside the SK! fan base. I especially would like to know if similar such company history has occurred and how it turned out.

 

[winger51]

I just now placed my request for a refund. Enough is enough.

 

[Silver Needle]

I find it helpful to get opinion outside the SK! fanbase specifically if there are any similar companies that have stories and outcomes- good OR bad.

Now this gets back to your original post. There has been quite a departure from that first post.

As far as figuring out your own course of action, you did get plenty of opinions, so I'm sure you have that part figured out.

If specific companies with success or failure stories were mentioned, I missed it. I'd truly be interested to hear if every single knife company that acquired a massive back log did eventually fail and disappear or if there are any knife makers that were able to turn things around... and how they did it.

 

[mlmcasual]

Now this gets back to your original post.
If specific companies with success or failure stories were mentioned, I missed it. I'd truly be interested to hear if every single knife company that acquired a massive back log did eventually fail and disappear or if there are any knife makers that were able to turn things around... and how they did it.

Exactly! You have a ton of traders/dealers and collectors here in BF, I figured if anything someone here would know.

 

[winger51]

Now this gets back to your original post. There has been quite a departure from that first post.

As far as figuring out your own course of action, you did get plenty of opinions, so I'm sure you have that part figured out.

If specific companies with success or failure stories were mentioned, I missed it. I'd truly be interested to hear if every single knife company that acquired a massive back log did eventually fail and disappear or if there are any knife makers that were able to turn things around... and how they did it.

As I just posted above, I have requested a refund. This is a calamity beyond anything I have experienced in 40 years of collecting and using knives.

Silver Needle you seem to be a nice enough person but you really should not be so blindly allegiant to a company which continues to be abstract, kindly put, in their manner of fulfilling their business orders. I hope your faithful endeavors are to be rewarded in a financial manner, who else spends as much time as you expounding their praises, both on a personal and business level?

As I have previously mentioned in a post directly to Ellie, I admire her attempts at calming the waters, but there is only so much any prospective buyer will endure. I really do hope they 'survive' but I suspect there is much much more to the story. I am quite disillusioned by the less than objective enthusiasm on the Survive forum, but that is reflective of a much larger audience. It is almost a knife cult, one that is less than mature or reasonable. We are referring to knives, these are tools that are used for cutting, nothing more.

Maybe one day I'll place an order, in the mean time I'll just use the 3.5 and 4.1's for the purpose they are intended, knives to be put to tasks, not customs nor collection items. And I will enjoy spending more time on the Fixed Blades for Sale, admiring the workmanship deserving of individuals who no doubt labor for the satisfaction of the making and not so much for the monetary end.

 

[Casinostocks]

"Calamity". New one to add to: "Fraud", "Sham", "Scam", "Ponzi Scheme", "House of Cards"... I may have seen "Disaster" but I am not quite sure. I just thought of a few more, "Anguish" and "Suffering", feel free to use those too if it relieves the mental pain somehow, but Xanax and some Bourbon will be more effective for immediate rescue. No need to thank me!

 

[winger51]

"Calamity". New one to add to: "Fraud", "Sham", "Scam", "Ponzi Scheme". "House of Cards"... I may have seen "Disaster" but I am not quite sure. I just thought of a few more, "Anguish" and "Suffering", feel free to use those too if it relieves the pain. No need to thank me!

I refrain to use descriptive adjectives to describe you and your posts, they would be exhaustive to list. You might try to remember an old saying regarding as to one who argues with a fool may have difficulty being perceived as to the "other". It was Mark Twain, no doubt an author of whom you have little knowledge: “Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.”

 

[Casinostocks]

You are just so adorable Winger. Good luck with the refund process. This "fool" is now going to sulk in the corner. Funny, how the malcontents bring the necessity of being respectful into their argument. Are you sure that quote is from Mark Twain? I would have thought more like Shania Twain!

 

[Andy the Aussie]

I have watched this whole thread from afar with (mostly) a sense of detachment as I am not generally a Survive! guy. What I am is a person who admires their designs and would happily buy one of their knives given the right opportunity. I am a "Busse Guy" so I do understand the idea of limited releases, unusual ordering processes and the highs and lows of wanting a particular blade and not simply being able to just log on and order away, I currently have more $$US in Busse pre-orders than I care to admit, they don't however ask for payment until such time the blade is ready or close to shipping.

I have read about the pre-order/startup/funding scheme that Survive! have offered and no it is not for me, or many others I suspect. That said I don't believe that they have been intentionally dishonest about the scheme, not at all, and refunds seem to be easily available to anyone wanting to back out. What is of some concern is "missed targets" and ongoing reasons for further delays. No matter if you are a Survive! guy or not these have to be considered logically and critically as, no matter how it is framed, Survive! is holding customer money for pre-orders and those orders remain outstanding (notwithstanding the lack of a fixed delivery date). Many will be happy to wait (!!!!) and that IS OK, but no one should be critical of anyone airing a legitimate concern over the delays when they have $s on hold and, as I read it, not a simple deposit but full up front payment. For a small company that can be a difficult hole to dig out of at the best of times and worse if there is any significant or unexpected change to their supply or production chain (such as a cost increase/delay or loss of supplier for a raw material or loss/limitation of a key staff member due to health or circumstance). NO ONE wants this for them or the customer base.

There is a golden rule that is repeated over and over and over in the GB&U forum here and that is "never pay fully upfront for a knife". That is a really common theme for things going badly (no not always and probably less as a % of successful transactions that are unrecorded here). I have only ever been stung once for a knife and that was from a one man shop who I had patronised from startup and felt I had a personal relationship with. I didn't blink when I ordered a knife for a friend of mine here in Aus (who wanted it having handled mine) and I was asked to pay fully at the get go (knowing it needed to be made). Then "life happened" to him (the maker) and he was never able to get out from under it. He had NO ill intentions at the start and stayed in touch till I think he felt his situation was beyond redemption.

Everyone in this thread is entitled to an opinion pro or con, but we all need to remain objective, blind faith is not useful nor is the opposite.

Cool heads folks !!!! I for one hope to be able to order a Survive! knife direct with minimal delay sometime in the near future.