What is reasonable and legal?

[Silver Needle]

I hope your faithful endeavors are to be rewarded in a financial manner

I hope things work out for both of us in and out of SURVIVE! as we go our own ways. I would prefer if my enthusiasm and high post count is rewarded, but if not, I'll let you cut in line to say "I told you so".

 

[mlmcasual]

Now this gets back to your original post. There has been quite a departure from that first post.

As far as figuring out your own course of action, you did get plenty of opinions, so I'm sure you have that part figured out.

If specific companies with success or failure stories were mentioned, I missed it. I'd truly be interested to hear if every single knife company that acquired a massive back log did eventually fail and disappear or if there are any knife makers that were able to turn things around... and how they did it.

Silver, as far as I can tell.. there were two trusted experts that responded to my questions directly.
There where TWO Experts in the field that graciously answered my questions directly in this thread early on, Bladeforum Moderator RevDevil and Respected knife maker Mitchell Knives.

Quote Originally Posted by mlmcasual View Post
Thanks for your input..
I am on fact finding mission not here to name/shame or even complain..

RevDevil Super Mod..
First of all, no need to freak out ver the thread. If you are in this situation others walking in your shoes might benefit from stating the facts from your experience. The reason is, people need to be able to make informed decisions, and the company may not have any idea how easy it is to get in over your head and basically drown in unfulfilled orders. It's happened to a lot of makers over the years. Things going really good, great product, great price, the. Things get too good,ntoo much popularity too fast and no feasible way to deliver is a problem.
That isn't a complaint, rather an onservation from a concerned customer base. I've wanted a Survive knife for a while, but they are never in stock, never available, no timeframes, etx. So I just passed. I'm sure Guy and company are great folks, but ther seems to be a huge obstacle keeping the wheels from rolling smoothly. As long as people adhere to facts and refrain from insults, nothting to be secretive about. I've been following their forum for a while and spoke to his wife via the forums and gave them some pointers on managing their forums. Haven't heard mich news innthe last 8-10 months though.

and Knifemaker Mitchell Knives

Knifemaker Mitchell Knives

This is highly unusual, and is usually a clear sign that you should avoid the maker.

The only time up front payment could possibly be considered reasonable would be if you were requesting extremely rare/expensive materials.

Otherwise, asking for payment up front tells me that the maker can't afford to make knives.

Get your money back. This seems like a scam.

 

[RevDevil]

@ mlmcasual - Well, I was typing that reply on a phone while on the road (I wasn't driving, but there was a lot of traffic). I blame it on my large hands, the typos that is. My aplogies for that hard to read response. At any rate, thanks for the confidence. I just want to say that there is no witch hunt here, just some tell tale signs that have happened to other makers that seemed to be doing great before they crashed and burned unexpectedly. I'm NOT saying this is going to happen to Survive, but it does tend to make people skittish, I would be and justifiably so.

Now, we need to tone down the stupid comments and the personal jabs, seriously. THe mods overall are sick and tired of running this forum as if it is patronized by daycare aged children. Be respectful, be mature, show some common sense and courtesy or you'll be shown the door. We have no room here for trolls and have no compunction about removing people, regardless of their membership level. This horse is starting to reek so much even the maggots are starting to gag.

The rule of thumb and consensus (I know people dislike the mathematical aspects but...) is that you don;t pay for an item unless it is complete or well on its way. As a consumer and patron, you need to take steps to protect yourself from getting burned. That is why Paypal gift is great if you are sending your brother or sister some money as a gift, and not buying something from a total stranger. Just some musings to keep things on track, if things veer any further we'll edit the posts have not contributed anything but trolling responses and write up a truck load of infractions. It's too damn hot for this silliness.

 

[Hale Storm]

Originally Posted by Skystorm View Post

You assume that hiring people somehow equates to inferior quality. Your grinding blanks and assembling handles, It's not rocket science by any means but teaching people costs both time and money neither of which are obviously in a great deal of supply hence the never ending crowdfunding for every single design. Hiring employees puts the onus on you to hire a qualified candidate and to train them sufficiently with enough time allowed to master the task they were hired for. If three additional people cannot equal the work of one single person then they were quite obviously not properly trained and the excuse of we can't train anyone so we just won't hire anyone and will just extend our already indefinite lead time into infinity is both laughable and unethical.

Other companies follow the same model, Bark River's Ambush line, Fiddleback Production, except that they can deliver, designed, built, and tested out of their own pocket, without the multitude of delays and the associated seemingly never ending excuses.
-----------------





There is a simple reason SK can't do a traditional business or SBA loan. It requires the loan officer to meticulously comb through your finances both personal and professional. No bank is going to make a loan to a 'Craft' company that is already 1.5-2 years in debt and still selling products that do not exist rather than closing books and making every effort to clear the backlog. I find it interesting that you have enough time to produce additional knives for monday sales rather than focus that time on the orders that were already paid for.


QUOTE=Standard78;16194295]I find it laughable and unethical when a company that makes money on aftermarket parts, chooses to trash talk a company that supplies them with the products needed to complete their job.
Talk about a poor business practice.[/QUOTE]

Standard, am I reading that right? This is Skystorm Leather?

 

[Silver Needle]

Silver, as far as I can tell.. there were two trusted experts that responded to my questions directly.
There where TWO Experts in the field that graciously answered my questions directly in this thread early on, Bladeforum Moderator RevDevil and Respected knife maker Mitchell Knives.





and Knifemaker Mitchell Knives

I saw both of those, but I'm glad you brought the quotes up from the start of the thread. The way "scam" was used by Mitchell Knives seems off base to me. There's a lot about the delays and back log that can't really be defended, but I honestly believe SURVIVE! is doing everything they feel is right to fulfill orders.

I understood Rev's original and follow up posts, but nobody mentioned specific cases or companies like "Smith and Sons Knife Co. ran into the exact same problems in the late '80's and eventually went bankrupt with unfulfilled open orders" or "interestingly enough Kabar went through the exact same growing pains in the early 1900's but were able to turn things around and all they had to do was hire more people to sharpen knives".

 

[SavageSmurf]

I can't speak for any one else, but when I placed my order with SK for the GSO 7/7, they made it clear that while the knives were expected to be finished and ship within the next few months, there was no guaranteed fulfillment date. It stands to reason that the information I read would have been on every pre-order that was placed. Yes SK is running about 18-20 months behind on their projected fulfillment date (which is pathetic tbh), but they did make it clear when orders were placed that the date was not guaranteed, and the knives could be delayed by an unspecified length of time. If you placed a preorder with SK, this is what you signed up for. It's silly to complain about it, when customers were made aware of the possible delays before even placing the order. And on top of that, if you want a refund, they'll process it. All you have to do is contact them. I really don't understand what the problem is here, or why this thread was even necessary... #notafanboy #ipreferbusse

 

[TsarBomba]

I can't speak for any one else, but when I placed my order with SK for the GSO 7/7, they made it clear that while the knives were expected to be finished and ship within the next few months, there was no guaranteed fulfillment date. It stands to reason that the information I read would have been on every pre-order that was placed. Yes SK is running about 18-20 months behind on their projected fulfillment date (which is pathetic tbh), but they did make it clear when orders were placed that the date was not guaranteed, and the knives could be delayed by an unspecified length of time. If you placed a preorder with SK, this is what you signed up for. It's silly to complain about it, when customers were made aware of the possible delays before even placing the order. And on top of that, if you want a refund, they'll process it. All you have to do is contact them. I really don't understand what the problem is here, or why this thread was even necessary... #notafanboy #ipreferbusse

Is the thread not largely about how such a situation might not be sustainable, ultimately leading to the downfall of a company with the potential to do some seriously good things in the world of production knives? On some level you seem to understand that, too, judging from the highlighted admission. I think this might be worth talking about, so long as people are detached and mature enough to discuss it without, well, the last 4 pages of blind advocacy/criticism, forced misapprehensions and mudslinging.

 

[mlmcasual]

Yes, the discussion was meant about concerns on longterm sustainability.

 

[mlmcasual]

I can't speak for any one else, but when I placed my order with SK for the GSO 7/7, they made it clear that while the knives were expected to be finished and ship within the next few months, there was no guaranteed fulfillment date. It stands to reason that the information I read would have been on every pre-order that was placed. Yes SK is running about 18-20 months behind on their projected fulfillment date (which is pathetic tbh), but they did make it clear when orders were placed that the date was not guaranteed, and the knives could be delayed by an unspecified length of time. If you placed a preorder with SK, this is what you signed up for. It's silly to complain about it, when customers were made aware of the possible delays before even placing the order. And on top of that, if you want a refund, they'll process it. All you have to do is contact them. I really don't understand what the problem is here, or why this thread was even necessary... #notafanboy #ipreferbusse

Do you yourself have a cuttoff point where you would ask for a refund on your 7/7? 24 months? 36 months? etc?

 

[TsarBomba]

ZZYZX: Nice research! No matter as to how you dice it and splice it, the laws of of bankruptcy are written within the Constitution and an American Citizen or Legal resident CAN file for bankruptcy, period! Whether he, she or it qualifies is another matter and of another discussion. You are not dealing with a lemming on this matter. Nuff said!

A distinction entirely without a difference. Bankruptcy is a manner of protection. There are different forms of bankruptcy, the parameters of which are solely up to the discretion of the legislature. zzyzzogeton is 100% correct in his statements, and while I imagine S!K would qualify for bankruptcy protection if and when it comes to that, I think we can all (or at least mostly) agree that nobody wants that to happen, regardless of intent to buy their product.

At the present time, there is no debtor's jail / prison (although in some our poorest counties in the poorest States, the courts in cahoots with predatory creditors are now massaging such rules) in the United States and as the OP had insinuated, S!K need not look for other countries which do not have or honor an extradition treaty with the United States.

That was actually Skyler, and it was quite obviously a joke.

For every one of you who do not wish to touch an S!K product beyond this point as it is your rightful choice, there is one of us who will not touch a Patriot Leather product be it new, used or otherwise as that is damn well our own choices too.

The underlined smacks of the kind of pubescent spitefulness which impels people who are otherwise fully objective about this situation, including myself, to assume the cries of "fanboyism" are valid.

Again, regardless of anybody's personal impetus to buy or not buy an S!K product, I doubt any reasonable poster wants to see the company fail. It seems to be a late influx of blind advocates who have shifted the thread from a tone of constructive criticism to something which to my ears sounds more like a shouting match.

Is "You suck! No, you suck!" really the best way to discuss the business practices of a company that makes what is apparently an excellent product at a very reasonable (yet seemingly entirely hypothetical in many cases) price?

 

[TsarBomba]

I personally won't buy or spread the word about that company because I personally believe that it's unprofessional for one company to voice their opinions on another company's business model.
This is only my opinion and it doesn't matter if he was talking about S!K or any other knife company.

Would I be out of line to suggest that I believe if the shoe were on the other foot, and S!K were commenting on unsustainable (hypothetical) practices Patriot Leather were perpetuating -- even if it were just an effort to justify a discontinuation of a business relationship, for instance -- you would swiftly and vociferously move to support their "right" to do so and likely join in the condemnation of Patriot?

 

[TsarBomba]

Translation - If people who like S!K would just let people who have no interest in their knives dump all over them in a clusterchuck of bile and vitriol without protesting this would all be over soon.
You have no dog in this fight right? So who are you trying to convince? What's your point? "People who know better", please.
If you(in general) trust S!K to deliver, order from them. If you don't, don't. What's confusing about that?

I quote your post areas:

Survive! Knives: 135
FEEDBACK: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly!: 4

Can you make a valid argument as to why we should not consider your post an exceedingly late "pile-on"?

I've explained over the span of days and in response to multiple posters why this is a valid discussion, and how the concern of knife users and hobbyists might in fact be rooted in a situation which is precarious at best and destined to fail at worst. It is unrealistic and short-sighted to demand that participants have a "dog in this fight", especially when there's nothing especially unique about the products we are discussing here.

So let me restate your lead sentence back to you, and we'll see how you like it:

"If people who are concerned about S!K's long-term viability would just let blind S!K fanboys dump all over them in a clusterchuck of bile and vitriol without protesting this would all be over soon."

See? Nothing gets solved. It's just childish rhetoric that serves to obscure the problem instead of highlight and potentially mitigate it.

 

[TsarBomba]

holy moly!!! that took a while to read through....feel free to check my post history (since that seems to be a way to discredit someones opinion) but my thoughts on all of this are extremely simple: no one is forcing anyone to do anything... what I mean by that is that if survive knives business model is not for you, its extremely simple to remove yourself from the equation. Many people have posted that they wouldn't touch this model with a 10 foot pole, and thats cool, its their choice and I am sure they(the people passing on these knives) aren't losing sleep over it. I think the real meat of the argument is that people are upset because they want something they can't easily get? Yea, that sucks! Getting a survive knife is not as easy as other brands. In fact even Busse knives seem easier now a days! But again, you have the option to remove yourself from the situation. I "got into" survive knives about 1.5 yrs ago and have since purchased 11 knives and received 10 directly from survive. My point is not to brag but to illustrate that it is not impossible...far from it...
But again, why all the constant drama? if someone isn't comfortable remove yourself and buy from someone else. I guess I just don't understand the motivation... so much wasted energy

sigh...
The thing these threads keep missing, and that all the people who feel the need to fill the forums with their business resumes to prove why their opinion is more valid are missing isn't that the guys that have a more "pro" survive opinion aren't worried, or are somehow blind to potential issues. It's not that they aren't worried that a one man sharpening crew is quite the bottleneck. It's not even that they aren't bummed they won't get their 4.7 in time for a fishing trip. Its that they understand the risks and are willing to take them. What is frustrating, is all the people who aren't willing to take the risk who seem hell bent on convincing everyone else they are stupid. How should one NOT take that personally? How is that NOT disrespectful. Every person is an adult and can manage their own risk reward ratios. I didn't go all in spending $1000 on starters, I bought a 3.5 and a 5.1 and picked up 2x5.1 2nds when they were offered. That was the risk I was willing to take. If you dropped $1k and are suddenly feeling the squeeze, ask for a refund and be done with it?!
I also have about $2k tied up in O2W from Busse, so you can say I am just a jaded fanboy, but the jab won't hit that hard. Frankly my gripe with Busse is that they don't take money up front, but again that is a personal opinion of mine, and I still choose to buy from their company.
My suggestion to those people that are so truly on a mission to "get the word out" is to start a thread every 2 months, with links to all the other threads where this issue has been beaten to death, Immediately lock the thread. That way you can get your message out, and no one has to worry about "fanboys" or "haters" which are names so childish it pains me that the discussion has fallen to that level of discourse...

thats curious, why would you spend 1k if you don't know the risks? Worst case the risk is Survive goes belly up you lose all your money? How is that not clear? The business model is exactly the same as any project on Kickstarter, some do really well, other don't. You assume a level of risk when you back those projects... to say you didn't understand the risks seems either naive or completely disingenuous. If you truly don't understand that, then you should ask for a full refund, sit on the sidelines and wait until things stabilize.
I feel like the starter program was extremely explicit and frankly offered somewhat of a caution or warning. At the time, I chose to not put anything on order because I won't buy things off of renderings. I preordered my wife a 3.5 after one night thinking f-it, if i never see it then so be it. When the 5.1's came up for pre-sale in dec, I jumped on one because they at that time had full fledged photos. These were choices I made. I also really want a GSO 6 but need to spend the money elsewhere right now, so I held off... these are adult life choices...I don't understand why they are so hard for some people...

This seems to be the mantra "supporters" (we're not allowed to say "fanboys", I guess -- issues with calling a spade a spade) are flocking to this subforum in droves to repeat.

Why are you folks so hell-bent on berating the discussion itself? Clearly there's a problem. This "love it or leave it" attitude is invalid when it comes to politics and it's invalid when it comes to business, even in a purely capitalistic society (which this is not).

How about having an argument and making it instead of trying to bury the whole thing and force everyone to wear blinders?

 

[TsarBomba]

I understood Rev's original and follow up posts, but nobody mentioned specific cases or companies like "Smith and Sons Knife Co. ran into the exact same problems in the late '80's and eventually went bankrupt with unfulfilled open orders" or "interestingly enough Kabar went through the exact same growing pains in the early 1900's but were able to turn things around and all they had to do was hire more people to sharpen knives".

What if there is no analogue? What if this situation is so far beyond the pale that it is unprecedented in the long, storied history of the cutlery industry? What if this is such a wildly unorthodox and unstable business model that not one cutler, big or small, old or new, fabled or flash-in-the-pan, has ever even considered operating a business like S!K does?

Would the discussion still not be worth having?

 

[Standard78]

Would I be out of line to suggest that I believe if the shoe were on the other foot, and S!K were commenting on unsustainable (hypothetical) practices Patriot Leather were perpetuating -- even if it were just an effort to justify a discontinuation of a business relationship, for instance -- you would swiftly and vociferously move to support their "right" to do so and likely join in the condemnation of Patriot?

No, I would still stand by what I think is right and wrong.
My moral compass doesn't change direction just because I like a certain company.
Yeah I spend most of my time over on the S!K subforum, but that doesn't mean I'm not interested in other companies. I just prefer the content over there more than other places.

 

[mlmcasual]

This seems to be the mantra "supporters" (we're not allowed to say "fanboys", I guess -- issues with calling a spade a spade) are flocking to this subforum in droves to repeat.

Why are you folks so hell-bent on berating the discussion itself? Clearly there's a problem. This "love it or leave it" attitude is invalid when it comes to politics and it's invalid when it comes to business, even in a purely capitalistic society (which this is not).

How about having an argument and making it instead of trying to bury the whole thing and force everyone to wear blinders?

This is valid point and an observation I share. One of the distinctions I made before on this point is that despite the open ended disclaimer of no guarantees on lead-times.. your money + your time gives people the RIGHT to ask questions when it comes to extending beyond being reasonable. With contract and retail laws in America, there are some consumer rights that a Retailer can NOT force you to surrender by simply putting it as a clause and saying well, it was in my disclaimer. Indeed, that was at the heart of my OP and my question. Is this indefinite lead time such an example? Forget about that fact they offer refunds (for now). I was curious if this is ONE of those retail/contract law cases that you can not be forced to be held to open ended if it becomes unreasonable.

 

[Silver Needle]

What if there is no analogue? What if this situation is so far beyond the pale that it is unprecedented in the long, storied history of the cutlery industry? What if this is such a wildly unorthodox and unstable business model that not one cutler, big or small, old or new, fabled or flash-in-the-pan, has ever even considered operating a business like S!K does?

Would the discussion still not be worth having?

If that's really the case and all we're doing is picking apart SURVIVE! and injecting how you or I would run the business then we'd be having a discussion that's been had many, many times over, at least, the last 3 years. Does anyone really believe SURVIVE! will change business practices just because a bunch of Bladeforum members are debating it? Does anyone believe that this thread will change the minds of people who already think the company is doomed to failure or the people who believe they will overcome all current challenges? Despite the raging debates over the last few years SURVIVE! is still here.

As far as your other comments, I think the SURVIVE! forum members got more active when "scam" and "Ponzi scheme" were used pretty liberally, with or without basis. If there's a thread insulting our favorite brand, do you think we would not interject? Within a few posts of this thread there was a departure into misinformation and insults.

 

[mlmcasual]

If that's really the case and all we're doing is picking apart SURVIVE! and injecting how you or I would run the business then we'd be having a discussion that's been had many, many times over, at least, the last 3 years. Does anyone really believe SURVIVE! will change business practices just because a bunch of Bladeforum members are debating it? Does anyone believe that this thread will change the minds of people who already think the company is doomed to failure or the people who believe they will overcome all current challenges? Despite the raging debates over the last few years SURVIVE! is still here.

.

That's a solid point!

 

[Casinostocks]

This seems to be the mantra "supporters" (we're not allowed to say "fanboys", I guess -- issues with calling a spade a spade) are flocking to this subforum in droves to repeat.

Why are you folks so hell-bent on berating the discussion itself? Clearly there's a problem. This "love it or leave it" attitude is invalid when it comes to politics and it's invalid when it comes to business, even in a purely capitalistic society (which this is not).

How about having an argument and making it instead of trying to bury the whole thing and force everyone to wear blinders?

There is no call of duty or call to action posted on the Survive! subforum for the so-called Survive! fanboys to flock in here to defend their cause. Naturally there have been very few references to this but contrary to seemingly popular belief, the people on that subforum do not dwell on there to sing the praise of Survive!'s business practices but there is a very strong camaraderie regarding sharing and exchanging of information relating mostly to Survive! knives (the products) but not just exclusive to S!K. People share and discuss information about all sorts of outdoor activities and it is by far one of the best subforums on this site. You may wish to check it out for yourself at some point.

If you wish to be completely objective, please read through all the posts made by the good folks who have spoken negatively about Survive! (the Co, not the product) and/or its business practices. You will then see plenty of berating and more hypocrisy on that side of the argument. I merely and if I may state again, consistently highlighted the use of words and phrases which I thought to be unfair to label Survive! with because so far, simply there is absolutely ZERO case of the business going completely silent on any refund requests. There are currently only 3 people who work at their workshop so inquires relating to products, refunds, concerns via email and phone calls may not get an instantaneous and immediate response, but they do get properly addressed within 2-3 days once the inquiring party gets hold of Ellie. Also while not terribly active on the Social Media networks, there are definitely signs of normal business life on their various SM networks and also on their website. I have seen enough cases here on GB&U to recognize as to what is a intentional sham operation and what is not and all along I have attempted to highlight that to the best of my knowledge and experience, this operation is not a scam operation but I have indicated in more than a handful of my posts on here that anything can happen to anyone at anytime!

Speaking of common courtesy, find one of my posts, any one of them that I have addressed anyone in a belligerent manner? However, in a post just yesterday it was strongly implied by a poster that I was a know-nothing fool. Very charming and endearing indeed! Finally, I believe that the OP received plenty of good advices in this 200+ post thread but I suspect that he really wishes for Ellie to come in here and state publicly that some or many of the current S!K models are indeed facing a 2+ year lag time. If that is the case, I do not know for certain that being the case and I can't add anything more to this conversation/thread other than stating that I personally will be sticking with my current preorders, even if the fulfillment lag time is indeed 2+ years.

 

[TsarBomba]

This weirdness with multi-quote is making this thread difficult to navigate, and that's saying it charitably... apologies if I missed any replies.

If that's really the case and all we're doing is picking apart SURVIVE! and injecting how you or I would run the business then we'd be having a discussion that's been had many, many times over, at least, the last 3 years. Does anyone really believe SURVIVE! will change business practices just because a bunch of Bladeforum members are debating it? Does anyone believe that this thread will change the minds of people who already think the company is doomed to failure or the people who believe they will overcome all current challenges? Despite the raging debates over the last few years SURVIVE! is still here.

It is. And despite the rhetorical language re: "picking apart", I imagine most of the people here on either side would prefer S!K to continue "being here". Even with, what, five years of past performance, is there any universe in which their boutique ultra-exclusivity business model can be leveraged into growth and continued profit? I don't believe that there is. I certainly hope that by creating a core discussion that rationally and factually outlines the concerns with what, through my eyes, appears to be an endless debt spiral ("debt" as in financial -- S!K is now in possession of a lot of money representing unfulfilled obligations, and one significant problem could tip the balance -- and as in customer goodwill, as evidenced by this thread and others). There will always be "pilers on" and people just looking for a slapfight, but we have mods and infractions and ignore functionality to deal with them. If Guy and Ellie subsequently refuse to consider the rational replies -- not saying this has happened, only a hypothetica -- at the very least everyone can say "Well, we tried!" So, yes, in a way I imagine more than one person posting herein does want this debate to change a few things, or at least light some fires under the decision-makers and cause them to reconsider their ideas regarding growth/expansion.

FYI, in case it's unclear, I put no stock in the posts that seem to welcome punitivity against S!K, whether judicial or circumstantial. They are not productive and frankly represent misplaced emotions.

As far as your other comments, I think the SURVIVE! forum members got more active when "scam" and "Ponzi scheme" were used pretty liberally, with or without basis. If there's a thread insulting our favorite brand, do you think we would not interject? Within a few posts of this thread there was a departure into misinformation and insults.

I agree that some terms bandied about might be considered inflammatory; I personally used the word "scam" (though couched in what I consider very emotion-neutral verbiage and ensconced within double-quotes to indicate that I felt the word was not quite accurate in describing the situation) and I can see how some supporters would take umbrage with that. I counter with the fact that I offered no actual value judgments, only my perspective that an "outsider" such as myself could easily be swayed into seeing the whole model as fraudulent. Any offense taken to that perspective is an overreaction, IMO.

(Phrases like "house of cards", however, might be fairly accurate. We won't know until we know, really.)

If you wish to be completely objective, please read through all the posts made by the good folks who have spoken negatively about Survive! (the Co, not the product) and/or its business practices. You will then see plenty of berating and more hypocrisy on that side of the argument. I merely and if I may state again, consistently highlighted the use of words and phrases which I thought to be unfair to label Survive! with because so far, simply there is absolutely ZERO case of the business going completely silent on any refund requests. There are currently only 3 people who work at their workshop so inquires relating to products, refunds, concerns via email and phone calls may not get an instantaneous and immediate response, but they do get properly addressed within 2-3 days once the inquiring party gets hold of Ellie. Also while not terribly active on the Social Media networks, there are definitely signs of normal business life on their various SM networks and also on their website. I have seen enough cases here on GB&U to recognize as to what is a intentional sham operation and what is not and all along I have attempted to highlight that to the best of my knowledge and experience, this operation is not a scam operation but I have indicated in more than a handful of my posts on here that anything can happen to anyone at anytime!

I have read the entirety of this thread and I've seen berating on both sides. I cannot say I've seen more from one side or another, only that we seem to be slogging through a whole lot of it from both sides. Yes, I'm familiar with the organizational structure S!K uses. I'm also familiar with Ellie's implication that Guy is uncomfortable with making a proactive change to that structure to help increase their production capacity and help start filling that backlog. I get that the owner's comfort level with new employees might not be high enough for him to be confident that their products will maintain their reputation for quality, but part of running a business is getting over one's temerity and knowing when to take that next step.

If I haven't made it clear, I appreciate that Ellie and even Guy have taken the time to post here and give their perspective. While I might not agree with the tone or the content of some of their posts, at least they are making an effort. I don't personally believe that S!K fits the bill as a fraudulent operation, but I do recognize that some of their existing customers are growing very concerned with their long-term viability.

Forget about knives for a moment. If you were planning to buy a new automobile, would you not want to ensure that the manufacturer would be around for at least the next few years or so?

I'm glad that to date there have been no issues reported by any of these wary customers in getting their pre-order money back. That's an encouraging sign. Further encouragement would be gleaned from a concerted, organized effort to increase production capacity without simply relying upon the "starter program" to be the be-all, end-all magic bullet of success for S!K.

I think if we can learn to ignore the obvious rabble-rousers, and tone down the rhetoric on both sides, something good might yet come of this thread.