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What is reasonable and legal?

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Of course if I were to purchase new automobile, there would be many, many more factors which I would consider much more seriously, including the longevity and viability of its maker; but with all due respect a knife is not an automobile. Knife is an ancillary tool and to draw parallels, I would say yes I would definitely consider those factors in the same manner I would say buy an axe!

In any case, I have a strong feeling (call it my spidey sense as opposed to anything based on insider knowledge) that S!K is in the process of getting their collective acts together and I can sense that they will be adding more to their cadre. I can't fathom that they are totally blind and completely oblivious to constructive criticism!
 
Casinostocks said:
Of course if I were to purchase new automobile, there would be many, many more factors which I would consider much more seriously, including the longevity and viability of its maker; but with all due respect a knife is not an automobile. Knife is an ancillary tool and to draw parallels, I would say yes I would definitely consider those factors in the same manner I would say buy an axe!

In any case, I have a strong feeling (call it my spidey sense as opposed to anything based on insider knowledge) that S!K is in the process of getting their collective acts together and I can sense that they will be adding more to their cadre. I can't fathom that they are totally blind and completely oblivious to constructive criticism!
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SK! has held true to their word and hype regarding the product quality. As far as lead times, we will know either way by their actions not their words. That's only fair to say that... That's not to say their proactive updates are not appreciated.
 
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TsarBomba said:
is there any universe in which their boutique ultra-exclusivity business model can be leveraged into growth and continued profit? I don't believe that there is. I certainly hope that by creating a core discussion that rationally and factually outlines the concerns with what, through my eyes, appears to be an endless debt spiral ("debt" as in financial -- S!K is now in possession of a lot of money representing unfulfilled obligations, and one significant problem could tip the balance -- and as in customer goodwill, as evidenced by this thread and others). There will always be "pilers on" and people just looking for a slapfight, but we have mods and infractions and ignore functionality to deal with them. If Guy and Ellie subsequently refuse to consider the rational replies -- not saying this has happened, only a hypothetica -- at the very least everyone can say "Well, we tried!" So, yes, in a way I imagine more than one person posting herein does want this debate to change a few things, or at least light some fires under the decision-makers and cause them to reconsider their ideas regarding growth/expansion.

I agree that some terms bandied about might be considered inflammatory; I personally used the word "scam" (though couched in what I consider very emotion-neutral verbiage and ensconced within double-quotes to indicate that I felt the word was not quite accurate in describing the situation) and I can see how some supporters would take umbrage with that. I counter with the fact that I offered no actual value judgments, only my perspective that an "outsider" such as myself could easily be swayed into seeing the whole model as fraudulent. Any offense taken to that perspective is an overreaction, IMO.

(Phrases like "house of cards", however, might be fairly accurate. We won't know until we know, really.)
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The admitted newcomers may not realize that SURVIVE! has been through this all before IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS: the preorders, the waits, the massive amounts of complaints, the eventually FILLED orders and the company is still here. As bleak as it may seem to some, it's been worse at some points in S!'s FIVE YEAR HISTORY. The massive amounts of preorders we're seeing now are because customers asked for it. Clearly there's a group of dissenters here, but there many people who place orders because the product is so good. SURVIVE! operates in the reality that they can't please everyone. Many, very similar conversations have happened over THE LAST FIVE YEARS in the general forum and in the SURVIVE! threads before there was a subforum and in the subforum and on Facebook. SURVIVE! still holds true to their beliefs, whether we approve or not... it's been that way for years.


It does sting that owners or past owners of SURVIVE! knives are fed up enough to sell their knives or want to distance themselves from the company. On the other hand some who've posted in this thread seemed to read a post or two and without knowing much at all about the company were very quick in dismissing them with the "scam" and "scheme" label. I do have quite a bit of empathy for the people behind the products and I do want to see them succeed. The insiders have more background information with everything going on and despite the fanboyism do know more about the situation. The outsiders seem to be judging the company's entire history on the most recent yet-to-be-filled orders. I think that makes a pretty big difference of perspective even with all emotions aside.
 
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Five years. The way some of these apologetics read, you'd think they've been competing with Buck since the days of yore.
 
JohnWE said:
How long has Survive Knives been in business?
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To the best of my knowledge they started to release knives to the general public in 2012. It may have been in business or at least started production in the year prior to that. However, others who have followed this Co for longer may have a different start date.
 
TsarBomba said:
Five years. The way some of these apologetics read, you'd think they've been competing with Buck since the days of yore.
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Does answering someone who asked a completely neutral and simple question require taking a jab? So when does do as I preach and not as act apply to your good self?!

This is seriously my last comment ever on this thread. The last straw if you will. Good luck all.
 
Casinostocks said:
Does answering someone who asked a completely neutral and simple question require taking a jab? So when does do as I preach and not as act apply to your good self?!
This is seriously my last comment ever on this thread. The last straw if you will. Good luck all.
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Jab? My friend, I don't jab. My go-to is an overhand right. You'd know it if I threw one.

I'm meeting hyperbole with (gentle) hyperbole. You're making a big show about S!K having done it "their way" exclusively over their long and storied history. As JohnWE sussed out, and as I further elucidated, that extensive success has only really existed for about four production years in toto. It's disingenuous at best to push the argument that, because S!K has been operating a certain way in the (very recent) past, their model will continue to bear fruit going forward even in spite of the vast increase in demand and pre-orders and without any sort of tangible increase in production capacity. I had figured that would be clear by the numerous reasoned and logical posts made in this thread (now approaching 230 total), but perhaps I assumed that it was a point less-subtly made than it actually was. My mistake.

At any rate, I'm throwing no punches here. I'm simply defending against the "status quo" argument.
 
Casinostocks said:
Of course if I were to purchase new automobile, there would be many, many more factors which I would consider much more seriously, including the longevity and viability of its maker; but with all due respect a knife is not an automobile. Knife is an ancillary tool and to draw parallels, I would say yes I would definitely consider those factors in the same manner I would say buy an axe!

In any case, I have a strong feeling (call it my spidey sense as opposed to anything based on insider knowledge) that S!K is in the process of getting their collective acts together and I can sense that they will be adding more to their cadre. I can't fathom that they are totally blind and completely oblivious to constructive criticism!
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The best metric of this, under the SK business model, will be decreasing production times. We can wait & see.
A scam is in the eye of the maker. I don't think SK is scamming, or they wouldn't be handing out refunds. But they are using a model a scammer could use. It makes them look dodgy, even if they aren't.
 
TsarBomba said:
Is the thread not largely about how such a situation might not be sustainable, ultimately leading to the downfall of a company with the potential to do some seriously good things in the world of production knives? On some level you seem to understand that, too, judging from the highlighted admission. I think this might be worth talking about, so long as people are detached and mature enough to discuss it without, well, the last 4 pages of blind advocacy/criticism, forced misapprehensions and mudslinging.
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It just seemed there were a lot of unnecessary criticisms, considering customers were made aware of the wait times prior to placing an order. As far as sustainability, I don't have enough knowledge of prior successful/failing companies to draw a fair conclusion. They offer a quality product, and have good CS rapport, but demonstrate poor business practices IMO. I'd buy from them again, but it's unlikely I'd place another preorder.
 
mlmcasual said:
Do you yourself have a cuttoff point where you would ask for a refund on your 7/7? 24 months? 36 months? etc?
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It isn't really an issue of time, but more an issue of money. Having paid for something I didn't receive means that I cant just sell it if I need quick cash. That $250 is no longer liquid, but instead, it's tied up with their company. If I needed the cash, I'd contact them for a refund, simply because I don't yet have the knife to flip. Since I don't need the money, and SK has been providing us with updates regarding the progress of it's completion, it is unlikely I'd cancel my order for any reason. SK offered high-end steel, with great ergonomics and quality control, at a time that the only other knives available of a similar caliber were at the $400+ price point. The fact that they can potentially continue to offer that to the knife community for the foreseeable future, is worth the wait IMO. YMMV.
 
Speaking of hyperbole, do you have examples to refer to regarding this statement? Referring to the post above by SavageSmurf: "it is unlikely I'd cancel my order for any reason. SK offered high-end steel, with great ergonomics and quality control, at a time that the only other knives available of a similar caliber were at the $400+ price point".
 
SavageSmurf said:
It isn't really an issue of time, but more an issue of money. Having paid for something I didn't receive means that I cant just sell it if I need quick cash. That $250 is no longer liquid, but instead, it's tied up with their company. If I needed the cash, I'd contact them for a refund, simply because I don't yet have the knife to flip. Since I don't need the money, and SK has been providing us with updates regarding the progress of it's completion, it is unlikely I'd cancel my order for any reason. SK offered high-end steel, with great ergonomics and quality control, at a time that the only other knives available of a similar caliber were at the $400+ price point. The fact that they can potentially continue to offer that to the knife community for the foreseeable future, is worth the wait IMO. YMMV.
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If time where the ONLY issue there would be 1/4 as many posts here. Everyone understands there is risk with a pay up front - no guarantees or estimates of lead times. But the Risk factor went up dramatically when NOW you see Nine models to go in a one model at a time build and the current model has been in production for going on over a year. A lot can happen in 2, 3 years and longer to a one man operation while your waiting. Everyone has to weigh there own comfort level.. For example, my comfort only goes as far as my gso 7/7 model since I'm already a year in and it's two down the line.. However, the gso 10 I decided was just way to far down the line for my comfort level and I got a refund.. Really that's what all this boils down to.. everyone has to decide on their own comfort/risk level. Where the frustration level comes in, is not being able to nail down consistency in the model-to model build lead times.. so my risk evaluation has dramatically changed.
 
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233 posts and I have yet to see anything fact wise supporting the sk business model and how it can sustain itself long term other than the general 'good people' or 'they work hard' being bandied about which is great but also completely irrelevant since it will not sustain a business on just those two principles alone.

Fact - 90% of sk is outsourced in either labor or materials.

Fact - Material and labor prices do not stay static year after year in any business.

The price of about anything you buy today will be different in two or three years. There are ALWAYS price increases or material or labor shortages in a 2-3 year production window. How can you set a price on your production run when you yourself have no idea of your own production time and with so many variables to build your products that are completely out of your control? With so many knife companies moving towards higher end steels, hypothetically, what happens if that steel suddenly jumps 150% in raw material price due to higher demand from multiple sources? Or hypothetically, your other service providers knowing they now have you on the hook, increase their labor 30% because they know you have little to no choice that late in your production window? You can scream that's unethical but that is just business, it happens.

You can't absorb that, and you certainly can't raise your prices, since the customer has already paid 2 or 3 years ago. That leaves you with no other option except to open up an additional pre order or two to have the funds to finish the ones currently in que, new knives great! Except now how are you going to pay for the two models you just opened up? Unless you can somehow come up with an outside injection of a great deal of liquid cash, That is the debt spiral to the bottom where you crash and burn.

It has nothing to with the fact they work hard or are good people or whether you like sk, hate sk, hate your fellow forum members, hate preorders or have plenty of cash to burn. It is simply an unsustainable model as is.
 
Skystorm said:
233 posts and I have yet to see anything fact wise supporting the sk business model and how it can sustain itself long term other than the general 'good people' or 'they work hard' being bandied about which is great but also completely irrelevant since it will not sustain a business on just those two principles alone.

Fact - 90% of sk is outsourced in either labor or materials.

Fact - Material and labor prices do not stay static year after year in any business.

The price of about anything you buy today will be different in two or three years. There are ALWAYS price increases or material or labor shortages in a 2-3 year production window. How can you set a price on your production run when you yourself have no idea of your own production time and with so many variables to build your products that are completely out of your control? With so many knife companies moving towards higher end steels, hypothetically, what happens if that steel suddenly jumps 150% in raw material price due to higher demand from multiple sources? Or hypothetically, your other service providers knowing they now have you on the hook, increase their labor 30% because they know you have little to no choice that late in your production window? You can scream that's unethical but that is just business, it happens.

You can't absorb that, and you certainly can't raise your prices, since the customer has already paid 2 or 3 years ago. That leaves you with no other option except to open up an additional pre order or two to have the funds to finish the ones currently in que, new knives great! Except now how are you going to pay for the two models you just opened up? Unless you can somehow come up with an outside injection of a great deal of liquid cash, That is the debt spiral to the bottom where you crash and burn.

It has nothing to with the fact they work hard or are good people or whether you like sk, hate sk, hate your fellow forum members, hate preorders or have plenty of cash to burn. It is simply an unsustainable model as is.
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Sobering and excellent points. There are now 10 models in line... Ten different models that have to be done one at a time with current one over a year in production and counting. Even by most wildly optimistic possibilities, If they tripled their current productivity that would still be over 3 years into the future and most of the materials have not been bought yet as you point out. Since SK are marketed as a relatively low price point if the materials go up 3 years from now it's serious trouble. The cost of living will certainly go up in three years we know that's a given.
 
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I asked this before but it got lost in the sea of hyperbole I think.

Does anyone know if the person named "Guy" at Survive Knives is affiliated with the Bushcraft USA website/forums?
 
JohnWE said:
I asked this before but it got lost in the sea of hyperbole I think.

Does anyone know if the person named "Guy" at Survive Knives is affiliated with the Bushcraft USA website/forums?
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There was a response somewhere, but I'm sure it got lost in the shuffle. It is not the same guy... or Guy..... or whatever....
 
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