What is reasonable and legal?

[SURVIVE! Ellie]

I apologize for any confusion
My original question as above was "Do I have legal standing for refund(s)? " meaning, is there a statute time limitation that can expire where I the buyer no longer has any standing by retail law to request a refund. I wasn't meaning to imply SK is doing anything "illegal"-- just the opposite. If My SK order is going to take 2 years (which it looks like it very well could) I want to know if I will be giving up any rights as buyer far down the road to seek a refund. Also, if there is no defined delivery time do I as buyer even have a right by retail law to EVER request a refund? These are questions about MY rights as a buyer under retail laws And that, with due respect, are questions completely irrespective of SK's policies and why I didn't ask you or on your forums it as it would be inappropriate.

Also, SK had/has no written early refund policy so I have no guarantees in writing. My only garuntee is what SK say's they are willing to do at any given moment in time and as gracious as SK is/has been, I still want to know what my consumer rights are now and two years in the future from where I put money up front.

Which is why I made it a point to mention that I wasn’t sure about the actual legality involved before talking about our policy. You are right, we do not have a written refund policy on our website. Though we never expressly said the preorders were non-refundable either. I will talk to Guy about getting some wording together and get it added to the website.

I have to say that Ellie's response is one of the more unprofessional posts I have seen from a company here.

Unfortunately it's typical of her responses to any criticism lately. It's the same thing we've heard for the last several months regarding the delays for the 4.7. I typed out a long reply to her post but then edited by post to avoid drama. I said the same thing though, total lack of professionalism.

To turn this around and try to say it's the customer's fault for making them take pre-orders. Or that customers are asking them to be unethical and lower their standards. Vacationing when your six months behind on a promised delivery date. No other small business owner could do what they're doing. No knife is good enough to put up with this treatment.

I was just trying to address concerns that were raised using information that is based on our experiences. I apologize if my post was too vague, I believe it may have led to some misunderstanding. I was trying to be concise, to avoid the too long:didn’t read situation.

I in no means was suggesting it was the customers’ fault we took preorders. That line was just to say that we chose to provide a service for the large number of people who wanted to get an order in. Those are the same sort of people who flooded our inbox with “Thank You” messages after the most recent GSO-5.1 Preorder.

As far as vacationing, if I had known 4 months ago when my friend was booking her ticket that I would also be spending June burying my Grandmother and moving Guy’s Grandmother across the country, I would have asked if there was another time that she could squeeze me into her travel plans. Even while she was here I still took advantage of downtime to get some work done. As it is, I am missing another good friend’s wedding this month due to the circumstances. Life happens.

I did not feel that it was professional to comment on whether or not SURVIVE! is going to survive because I obviously have a biased outlook on that topic. Since it seems to have become the main concern here, I will address it at the end of the quotes.

You assume that hiring people somehow equates to inferior quality. Your grinding blanks and assembling handles, It's not rocket science by any means but teaching people costs both time and money neither of which are obviously in a great deal of supply hence the never ending crowdfunding for every single design. Hiring employees puts the onus on you to hire a qualified candidate and to train them sufficiently with enough time allowed to master the task they were hired for. If three additional people cannot equal the work of one single person then they were quite obviously not properly trained and the excuse of we can't train anyone so we just won't hire anyone and will just extend our already indefinite lead time into infinity is both laughable and unethical.

Other companies follow the same model, Bark River's Ambush line, Fiddleback Production, except that they can deliver, designed, built, and tested out of their own pocket, without the multitude of delays and the associated seemingly never ending excuses.
-----------------





There is a simple reason SK can't do a traditional business or SBA loan. It requires the loan officer to meticulously comb through your finances both personal and professional. No bank is going to make a loan to a 'Craft' company that is already 1.5-2 years in debt and still selling products that do not exist rather than closing books and making every effort to clear the backlog. I find it interesting that you have enough time to produce additional knives for monday sales rather than focus that time on the orders that were already paid for.

In our experience, hiring people has led to a decrease in quality. Yes, there are a lot of folks out there who can finish and sharpen a knife, but can they do it as well as Guy does? That is key, since we have built our reputation on Guy’s edges and overall eye for detail. I agree, it is definitely on us to train people. So far the apprentices either weren’t getting it or lost interest or were unable to make the move from Gettysburg. As I said before, we are not refusing to hire employees. In fact, we have been actively looking for people who will be the right fit for this team. Until we find those qualified candidates, we do not want to waste time and money throwing the wrong people at the problem. Especially when that time could be spent on fulfilling orders, directly addressing the wait issue.

Bark River has been around a lot longer than we have, they don’t sell direct to customers, and they are not built to order. That is about all I know about them, others will have to speak on how the products compare. I don’t know much about Fiddleback, though it has recently been brought to my attention that our move to Monday sales is similar to how they do things. Again, I can’t speak to how the actual products stack up next to each other. Just some points to consider when making comparisons.

There have been delays, either we can tell you why (“make excuses”) or not (“lack transparency”). We prefer to try and explain things.

And if they aren't capable of grinding, then how about assigning them to assembling those knives. Or further down the assembly line, how about boxing and printing labels. I find it further insulting for it to be said that there aren't dozens of individuals who would be capable of simple processes involved in their production level knives. American workers are intelligent and devoted and willing to learn to contribute to the process. Their knives are not of custom level expectations. They outsource a majority of the components. I am not questioning their quality as I own a 3.5 and 4.1 but my capacity for being duped by excuse posts on their part has reached its end.

Christian and I already do the assembly, final QC, packaging, and shipping. That is not were more hands are needed right now. The delays are in the more skilled tasks that Guy currently handles: finishing and sharpening. We believe there are definitely people out there who will be invaluable to us once we find them. The hard part is finding those people who are capable and but more importantly, willing. It sounds a lot easier than it actually is to stand in one spot with your head looking straight down for 8-10 hours a day.

The GSO-3.5 and GSO-4.1 that you own are great quality, but the new production models are to a completely different level. If you do not have a preorder placed, I do hope that you will have another opportunity to see a new spec knife first hand to compare them.

A week long funeral in Hawaii during Blade? Yes. I caught that. Thanks.

On the one hand you're right, they don't have to tell us about their personal issues. On the other hand, they have been making excuses since Christmas so it is reasonable for customers to have some type of explanation.

Look, if they are going to make excuses I'm going to make judgments on them.



A lot of us have worked in small business and it can suck but like you said the struggle is not unique. When you are in small business you do what you have to do to get the job done.

The comment about being away during Blade is irrelevant. We were never planning to attend Blade Show this year, with or without the funeral.

We are doing everything in our power to fulfill orders. I can guarantee that we don’t enjoy being behind like this. However, sometimes family has to come first. I can understand if we were ducking out for every birthday, graduation, wedding, reunion, etc that comes up. I have a big family and I let them down a lot. This is one where that wasn’t an option.

.
No sugar coating it there. given me a lot to think abou
Your statement about "still selling products rather then closing the books and clearing backlog".. really hits home...
SK now has NINE Backloged models. Considering they have only been able to make one~two models a year.. for years now, why did they open up the books and expand the backlog to NINE different models?

Ellie, all good intentions aside, opening up a preorder backlog for Nine models didn't seem excessive to you guys? Even if you could have met your wildest best guess production estimates at three/year that would make for 3 years lead time by the most OPTIMISTIC estimates.. Was SK comfortable with three years backlog? What IS SK's comfort level for backlog on prepaid items?

In previous years we were able to produce more than one or two models a year. For every knife that ships out demand increases. We honestly weren’t sure what to expect when opening up preordering, which is why we were very open and up front about no guaranteed delivery date on preorders. We believed that people who were not ok with those terms would not place an order. Since then we have made the mistake of estimating delivery timelines before we had the materials to know what level of additional care would need to go into each order. In the future, we will not do that.

Other estimates provided by people not us, are their own opinion. It appears that they are basing it off of the records of 2 of the most popular models, which also happened to be the first ones to go through these new production methods. I believe we will be able to adjust their numbers as we continue working our way through the models.

During the SURVIVE! Starter campaign we received a ton of requests and concerns because we had not included the GSO-6 and GSO-10. Similarly, after the GSO-5.1s sold out we received many requests, all promising that they didn’t mind waiting however long it takes. I completely understand that the preorder wait is frustratingly long, but it is equally frustrating for the folks who can’t be there for the Monday releases. We are doing what we can to satisfy both groups of customers.

He "threw out" that "aggressive word" long before your company was named -- by another poster who recognized your practices and verbiage, I might add.

Which just goes to show that it is easy enough to read between the lines and know who he was talking about.

 

[SURVIVE! Ellie]

There has been a lot of focus here on our decision to do preorders which seems to have led to this idea that we don’t have any other plans for the future, and are on an unsustainable path. For folks not familiar with SURVIVE!, I can see where it might look like we are just trying to collect as much of your hard earned money as possible. I would like to assure everyone, that couldn’t be further from the truth.

We are working to increase our production capabilities. I’ve mentioned several times in our subforum that we are working on a few different ideas to help us meet demand. We can’t go into any further details right now because we’ve noticed that we have been getting some attention in the industry so we aren’t ready to throw out all of our secrets publicly. We are actively looking for employees. There are also behind the scene innovations going on within our own workshop which help improve Guy’s efficiency while also decreasing the occurrence of Factory 2nds. With every mistake, we learn and adjust. That could mean changing our SOPs or adding extra notes to POs. We are always looking for solutions. Folks will also notice an increase in prices to adequately pay for the extra time and attention these new production knives receive.

Part of why the GSO-4.7 seems so behind is because we ran into some delays with the GSO-5.1. Those have been compounded and put onto the GSO-4.7 production. With every production run everyone involved learns ways to be more effective and gets more and more used to this new way of doing things. As we continue there will be less hand finishing touch-ups required and better efficiency all around. Production times will be getting shorter, especially as we move to models with fewer preorders in place.

We are also working on alternatives to the open ended preordering. As preorders are fulfilled we have a lot of extra materials which we sell every Monday. Someday we plan to be in a position where the heavy machining has been completed and there will be a range of models available each week. Originally, we stopped accepting preorders once the knives start production. More recently, we have started closing preordering once the number of preorders reaches a certain number, regardless of whether that model is starting to be cut out just yet. For the folks who can’t get to the computer in time on Mondays we tried a very limited 48-hour GSO-5.1 Preorder, which we received a lot of good feedback on.

We do our best to manage the demand levels. We have never had a booth at any shows. We do not advertise. We stopped working with dealers once Guy took back control of the sales and marketing for SURVIVE!. When we do send out marketing material we focus on providing information, rather than boosting sales (i.e. 1st Friday Newsletters). We aren’t even very active on Facebook or Twitter beyond providing updates and answering questions.

Unfortunately, the plans we make and systems we institute take time to unfold and show results. I understand how things can look bleak to some of you right now. I can assure you that we are not sitting idly by and letting things happen. As we move forward, those things we are doing to help will start to be more and more apparent. I am looking forward to seeing you all once they do.


Side note: Why do threads always seem to spiral into fast paced interactions when I'm in the middle of typing out a long response? Maybe I should not have named my dog Murphy. :/

 

[winger51]

I think I'd be more inclined to purchase from Skystorm. I've seen plenty of pictures of his work, and while they're just pictures they look very well made.

Add to this his attitude toward other businesses that are run less than optimally (speaking to efficiency) as well as wildly underestimating how long for a particular product to get ready.

From this I'd think that if I were to order one of his sheaths and was told it'd be ready in 4 weeks, it'd more likely be done in 3, then I'd have to pay for it.

I've got no other reason than a overall feeling, seems reasonable enough to me though.

Before I posted on this thread I was not aware of Skystorm's moniker as being that of Patriot Leather.
I received a sheath from Patriot Leather about a month ago, for a Fallkniven Pro F1 and its one of the best fitted and constructed sheaths I own.
I admire that he is making quality sheaths and the list of those knives for which he can make a sheath is extensive.

 

[zzyzzogeton]

This tongue-in-cheek utterance you just made shows that you are not an impartial party in this argument at all and you are not merely giving some sage advice to those who are worried about their preorders. If I was a betting man, I would definitely place a strong bet on the notion that you, Patriot Leather and Survive! Knives have some underlying tensions and YOU Sir have both used and abused this thread to pile on an agenda. You claim that you have no axe to grind yet the asinine accusation which you just made points in a contrary direction! In the above you are again explicit (you are no longer implying because your statement is definitive in tone) that S!K is intentionally running a scam and fraud operation and they are purposefully separating a bunch of fools and their monies! Just FYI and I am sure that you already know, in this Country it is the constitutional right of an individual and/or a business entity to file for bankruptcy protection (President Lincoln had also used his constitutional rights in this matter) and there is not any need to have a back up plan to hide from an extradition order (again where you are implying that S!K has embarked intentionally on defrauding its patrons). I am in no way shape or form are advocating or condoning the practice but it is there and no one needs to hide or plan on going to South America because his business fails. Spare me the lecture because I believe in the whole of the Constitution, the 1st, the 2nd and so on... I am not a selective Constitutional believer!

Am I bashing on you? You decide as I don't give a hoot! Your words are not measured and this is your way of dealing with your internal beef under the guise of GBU freedom of posting.

There is NO Constitutional "right" for an individual or business entity to file for bankruptcy.

The only thing the Constitution says about bankruptcy is that under Article 1, Section 8, Clause 4, Congress is authorized to enact "... uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States." That simply means 1 thing - Congress is the Constitutionally OBLIGATED to make uniform bankruptcy laws for the whole nation. End of Constitutional authority and obligation, re: bankruptcy law.

There is no "right to file for bankruptcy" whenever you want in the US. There are uniform laws under which bankruptcy may be filed. If you don't meet the current LEGAL requirements as enacted by Congress, you may not file for bankruptcy. Well, you can try to file, but the courts will throw your application to file bankruptcy out the court room door.

Whatever the current bankruptcy law says one can do is ALL one is ALLOWED to do if bankruptcy is the only financial option left for an individual or business to do. There are NO bankruptcy RIGHTS, only bankruptcy LAWS.

As far as S!K knives go, I've looked at them in the past, but never even held one. From the reviews I've read, I thought they looked "adequate" for doing what I want a knife to do and if one were to become available at the same time I was looking for a new knife AND I had the scratch for it, I would have at least thought about buying it. Now, after this thread? And especially after the condescending, "we aren't doing anything wrong" attitude post of "Ellie"? Well, based on this thread, S!Ks are now on my permanent "never buy one of these knives, even on the secondary market" list. I choose NOT to support, even peripherally, a company with such piss-poor business practices and business ethics.

I have had a single business dealing with Skyler and it went flawlessly. Granted, this is an extremely small sample set, but I would definitely have dealings with Skyler again. S!K has already shown themselves, in my NSHO, to NOT be worthy of even a single transaction from me. That comes from the ethics ingrained in me via the business methods, practices and ethics of MY families' businesses, paternal AND maternal, going back to the 1920s

 

[mlmcasual]

I've been keeping up with the updates over on their thread. There's a fairly new post saying that they have the supplies for the 4.7, 2.7 and some of the stuff for the 4.1.

As I recently noted, their "in production" list suddenly and significantly grew in size to five models from the 4.1 to the 6.0 .... But I wasn't sure how to interpret this.. Does that means the actual steel for those five lines have been purchased? Or does it just mean the ordering has closed? I had asked Ellie if they run production processes concurrently or independently and what she said is separate processes can be run concurrent IE.. the 4.1 can be heat treated while the 6.0 can be laser cut. However, I noted that every process still has to happen one at a time because each tooling setup is unique and they outsource to single vendors.. And ultimately you have one guy, (guy), that does the final grinds so that is obviously a bottleneck and the limiting factor in any scenario. Point being, I would take the In-production stages and updates with a grain of salt.. It really doesn't, or ever has, tell you much about the actual lead-times but k it's a nice thing to see for transparency.

One question I have for everyone here... IF guy was not the one doing the final grinds... would an SK! knife still be an SK! knife? in quality... That is a question that really needs be asked because it's been at the heart of issue. It's been the explanation given as to why SK! doesn't grow to meet demand, and I think it's been the accepted reason SK! fans are willing to wait with open ended patience.

 

[Casinostocks]

ZZYZX: Nice research! No matter as to how you dice it and splice it, the laws of of bankruptcy are written within the Constitution and an American Citizen or Legal resident CAN file for bankruptcy, period! Whether he, she or it qualifies is another matter and of another discussion. You are not dealing with a lemming on this matter. Nuff said!
At the present time, there is no debtor's jail / prison (although in some our poorest counties in the poorest States, the courts in cahoots with predatory creditors are now massaging such rules) in the United States and as the OP had insinuated, S!K need not look for other countries which do not have or honor an extradition treaty with the United States.

For every one of you who do not wish to touch an S!K product beyond this point as it is your rightful choice, there is one of us who will not touch a Patriot Leather product be it new, used or otherwise as that is damn well our own choices too.

It's all par for the course!

 

[grogimus]

One question I have for everyone here... IF guy was not the one doing the final grinds... would an SK! knife still be an SK! knife? in quality... That is a question that really needs be asked because it's been at the heart of issue. It's been the explanation given as to why SK! doesn't grow to meet demand, and I think it's been the accepted reason SK! fans are willing to wait with open ended patience.

Of course it would, IF the quality was the same. If Ellie says they haven't yet found someone able and willing I see no reason to think otherwise.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[Standard78]

I think I'd be more inclined to purchase from Skystorm. I've seen plenty of pictures of his work, and while they're just pictures they look very well made.

Add to this his attitude toward other businesses that are run less than optimally (speaking to efficiency) as well as wildly underestimating how long for a particular product to get ready.

From this I'd think that if I were to order one of his sheaths and was told it'd be ready in 4 weeks, it'd more likely be done in 3, then I'd have to pay for it.

I've got no other reason than a overall feeling, seems reasonable enough to me though.

That's definitely your choice to make and I won't criticize it.
I've had two of his sheaths and they are nice products.
I personally won't buy or spread the word about that company because I personally believe that it's unprofessional for one company to voice their opinions on another company's business model.
This is only my opinion and it doesn't matter if he was talking about S!K or any other knife company.

 

[Standard78]

As I recently noted, their "in production" list suddenly and significantly grew in size to five models from the 4.1 to the 6.0 .... But I wasn't sure how to interpret this.. Does that means the actual steel for those five lines have been purchased? Or does it just mean the ordering has closed? I had asked Ellie if they run production processes concurrently or independently and what she said is separate processes can be run concurrent IE.. the 4.1 can be heat treated while the 6.0 can be laser cut. However, I noted that every process still has to happen one at a time because each tooling setup is unique and they outsource to single vendors.. And ultimately you have one guy, (guy), that does the final grinds so that is obviously a bottleneck and the limiting factor in any scenario. Point being, I would take the In-production stages and updates with a grain of salt.. It really doesn't, or ever has, tell you much about the actual lead-times.

One question I have for everyone here... IF guy was not the one doing the final grinds... would an SK! knife still be an SK! knife? in quality... That is a question that really needs be asked because it's been at the heart of issue. It's been the explanation given as to why SK! doesn't grow to meet demand, and I think it's been the accepted reason SK! fans are willing to wait with open ended patience.

I wish I knew all of the answers for you bud. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in.

 

[winger51]

As I recently noted, their "in production" list suddenly and significantly grew in size to five models from the 4.1 to the 6.0 .... But I wasn't sure how to interpret this.. Does that means the actual steel for those five lines have been purchased? Or does it just mean the ordering has closed? I had asked Ellie if they run production processes concurrently or independently and what she said is separate processes can be run concurrent IE.. the 4.1 can be heat treated while the 6.0 can be laser cut. However, I noted that every process still has to happen one at a time because each tooling setup is unique and they outsource to single vendors.. And ultimately you have one guy, (guy), that does the final grinds so that is obviously a bottleneck and the limiting factor in any scenario. Point being, I would take the In-production stages and updates with a grain of salt.. It really doesn't, or ever has, tell you much about the actual lead-times but k it's a nice thing to see for transparency.

One question I have for everyone here... IF guy was not the one doing the final grinds... would an SK! knife still be an SK! knife? in quality... That is a question that really needs be asked because it's been at the heart of issue. It's been the explanation given as to why SK! doesn't grow to meet demand, and I think it's been the accepted reason SK! fans are willing to wait with open ended patience.

Again, these are production knives, and the grind is just one aspect of its totality, albeit an important one. A forged knife, with specialty handles (scales), fasteners and glue up stages, and tapered tangs and varying grind patterns would be much more labor intensive and I'm constantly impressed by the quality of knives listed by the custom makers on the Fixed Blades for Sale. There is one right now I'm trying hard not to pull the trigger on as it is well very done and the price is right.

The "totality" of the knife includes the type of steel, and 3V is of very high quality, the tempering and quenching process, the handle materials and choices, the shape and thickness and the intended purpose of the knife. And lastly, the aesthetics, purely subjective for the most part.

If there is a maker who would help answer your question better, as to the grind determining the ultimate quality of the knife, then I too would be most interested. Seeing as these knives are being assembled from components and then a final grind being placed on them, then I think the quality would not vary enough from one to the other regardless of who was doing the grinding (again a custom maker could advise as the training needed to stand at a grinder and "get it right") given the fact there are plenty of makers already alluded to who employ several individuals doing the grinding. This is somewhat akin to guitars, there are true one off customs, created by one person, to "mid techs" assembled from components, to mass produced instruments.

 

[Casinostocks]

TreviT: I like and respect you plus I thank you for helping me out with the GB SFA which I was seeking a couple of weeks ago. This statement is not meant to numb you and to tenderize you but to show that two forum members who have had nothing but positive interaction isn the past can respectfully agree to disagree on certain points of view. If we are all respectful, we will hopefully learn something and resolve issues. However if we are intransigent, obtuse and uncouth, we collectively gain nothing but spread hatred and disinformation. So please allow me to inject some perspective in here to try to get matters on course:

This thread had started on a simple premise that the OP who was (and I think still is) a fan of S!K (as in the products which may not necessarily be so on the people behind the operation or the ways of the said) was trying to find out about some legal facts about his current preorder positions and his legal rights as a customer because the said Co had significantly fallen behind with its fulfillment schedules. Then as things tend to do on here, the discussion degenerated. I came in to highlight the facts that there was too much use of hyperbole and innuendos and then guess what? A couple of self-righteous posters decided to equate me (and some others) with complete fanboyism with blinders on or rose colored glasses, or whatever other metaphor.

Then when the name of the said Co was aired in the open, some posters including SkyStorm came in to give unsolicited business advise laced and coated with further innuendos and predictions of a future demise. Note, the OP never had asked for business advise but Survive! Ellie made a crucial error of judgement to come in here and present the same defensive posture which we had heard before. IMHO, that was an unwise and not well thought first move on a thread outside of the normally warm and fuzzy subform with more sympathetic members / buyers than the malcontents (her second post was much better and better thought). So here we are my friend...

I can only speak for myself. I had approached Patriot Leather on eBay about two months ago to inquire about a sheath I was interested in (my eBay handle is a different one, so no need to look for Casinostocks) Let me just say that the response which I received, to me, had an undertone of an elitist attitude like what are you even asking me this Q?! I don't know if that came from the owner himself, his employee or his dog, but it was not an endearing one and it represented the coarse nature of someone dealing with inquires; but perhaps I'm just a sensitive wallflower sort! Then there is all this other negativity (not sarcasm) from the said Gent...

So in closing, the reason which I do not do business with Patriot has nothing to do with his products but all to do with his ATTITUDE. That said, I am sure that he does not need my $$$ and I do not need his products, no matter how nicely made. We can both exist and SURVIVE! without any need for and from one another

 

[Skystorm]

I'll take business advice from those with more experience than myself and not some self entitled fool who thinks he speaks for everyone. Welcome to my ignore list.

Did I say I was talking about the new models?
Nope.
I'm glad that you're not worried about getting money from S!K customers in the future. One thing you might want to think about is the fact that these "fans" also own multiple knives from other companies.
Do you think they'll be buying "parts" from you for those other knives now?
I doubt it.

Complete anonymity is typically the best way to run a business.

 

[SURVIVE! Ellie]

One question I have for everyone here... IF guy was not the one doing the final grinds... would an SK! knife still be an SK! knife? in quality... That is a question that really needs be asked because it's been at the heart of issue. It's been the explanation given as to why SK! doesn't grow to meet demand, and I think it's been the accepted reason SK! fans are willing to wait with open ended patience.

That is a great question and one I would love to know the answer to. Unfortunately, I believe the answer is subjective. What is okay to some, might be amazing or awful to others. Based on the various feedback we receive, we believe that there is a difference.

It is a question that has led us into some R&D work which may be a solid solution to the wait times. As mentioned before, I can't go into too many details on that right now.

Again, these are production knives, and the grind is just one aspect of its totality, albeit an important one. A forged knife, with specialty handles (scales), fasteners and glue up stages, and tapered tangs and varying grind patterns would be much more labor intensive and I'm constantly impressed by the quality of knives listed by the custom makers on the Fixed Blades for Sale. There is one right now I'm trying hard not to pull the trigger on as it is well very done and the price is right.

The "totality" of the knife includes the type of steel, and 3V is of very high quality, the tempering and quenching process, the handle materials and choices, the shape and thickness and the intended purpose of the knife. And lastly, the aesthetics, purely subjective for the most part.

If there is a maker who would help answer your question better, as to the grind determining the ultimate quality of the knife, then I too would be most interested. Seeing as these knives are being assembled from components and then a final grind being placed on them, then I think the quality would not vary enough from one to the other regardless of who was doing the grinding (again a custom maker could advise as the training needed to stand at a grinder and "get it right") given the fact there are plenty of makers already alluded to who employ several individuals doing the grinding. This is somewhat akin to guitars, there are true one off customs, created by one person, to "mid techs" assembled from components, to mass produced instruments.

That is why I had mentioned before that we are a production company making knives to a custom quality levels. There is a bit more to it than just assembling parts. If we see something that could use some extra time, we take the extra time. The GSO-5.1s in CPM-3V had their perimeters cleaned up, by hand. https://www.instagram.com/p/_ZyavXJbm_/?taken-by=surviveknives. The GSO-4.7 handles are getting some extra attention after a customer's feedback regarding handle fitment on a GSO-5.1 order. https://www.instagram.com/p/BGvGvi8Jbtc/?taken-by=surviveknives.

Another knife maker could definitely weigh in on the grinding. But again, that can be subjective. What is good enough for one maker, might not be for another. What we work off of is the reviews from people who are so excited that their GSO is the sharpest out of the box knife they have received.

 

[braillediver]

I believe the answer is subjective. What is okay to some, might be amazing or awful to others. Based on the various feedback we receive, we believe that there is a difference.

It's not subjective you're grinding a tool, it has certain dimensions and tolerances which can be measured. It's not magic. If you don't have defined dimensions, tolerances and inspect to them- what are you doing?

 

[Standard78]

I'll take business advice from those with more experience than myself and not some self entitled fool who thinks he speaks for everyone. Welcome to my ignore list.

Self entitled? Hahaha!
You couldn't be more wrong.
Bye bye.

 

[Skystorm]

Feel free to back that claim up with some actual proof.

If the attitude you display here is the same you displayed in your ebay communique then I most certainly responded in a like manner. I treat people exactly how they treat people. If your snarky you should expect the same in kind, that is how the world works. I am certainly not the type to put up with a load of crap from someone, especially a keyboard commando attitude, just for that persons money and I am completely up front about that fact. Why? Because I have self respect and integrity.

TreviT:

...I can only speak for myself. I had approached Patriot Leather on eBay about two months ago to inquire about a sheath I was interested in (my eBay handle is a different one, so no need to look for Casinostocks) Let me just say that the response which I received, to me, had an undertone of an elitist attitude like what are you even asking me this Q?! I don't know if that came from the owner himself, his employee or his dog, but it was not an endearing one and it represented the coarse nature of someone dealing with inquires; but perhaps I'm just a sensitive wallflower sort! Then there is all this other negativity (not sarcasm) from the said Gent...

 

[mlmcasual]

Lot of passion here on this thread. You wouldn't see this much passion for a china made gerber knife that's for sure!

 

[braillediver]

One last thing- this thread would have died a long time ago to be revisited in the future as things progress. Unfortunately a couple of fanboys wandered off the Survive! Knife forum to spout their religious beliefs to people who know better. I've got no dog in this fight so who are you trying to convince?

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

 

[ncrockclimb]

I am really disappointed by all the hate being directed at Skyler. Other than Ellie (who I think did a rather inadequate job), not a single one of the S!K advocates has even attempted to address the issues with S!Ks business plan that Skyler and a lot of other experience business people have explained. If Sklyer and a lot of other people are wrong, explain why. When you make it personal and about Skyler, you are just showing that you really have nothing of substance to add to the conversation about the stability of S!Ks business model.

 

[SURVIVE! Ellie]

It's not subjective you're grinding a tool, it has certain dimensions and tolerances which can be measured. It's not magic. If you don't have defined dimensions, tolerances and inspect to them- what are you doing?

Yes, dimensions and tolerances can be measured. But acceptable tolerances themselves differ depending on the individual setting them. One person might be ok with +/- .05 where another says the tolerance should be +/- .001. Who is right? They both are.

The handle fitment issue I mentioned is the perfect example. The knife went out because it was within our tolerances at that time. The customer felt that was not an acceptable tolerance. We've since adjusted our tolerances, based on that feedback.