What is reasonable and legal?

[Casinostocks]

Feel free to back that claim up with some actual proof.

If the attitude you display here is the same you displayed in your ebay communique then I most certainly responded in a like manner. I treat people exactly how they treat people. If your snarky you should expect the same in kind, that is how the world works. I am certainly not the type to put up with a load of crap from someone, especially a keyboard commando attitude, just for that persons money and I am completely up front about that fact. Why? Because I have self respect and integrity.

Nice trite and no, I won't tell you who I am on eBay. Just know that with your coarse attitude, you never know where you're gonna bump into the same person again and I had not noticed that till I saw your signature. When someone starts a conversation with a pleasantry like Hi, Hello, and do you mind telling me... Don't act like you own the whole joint, because you don't! Good for your proclaimed sense of self respect and integrity, and if I may suggest that you apply those lofty characteristics when dealing with other too. What do the words under your moniker say again?! They certainly do not convey niceness or politeness unless I can't read very well!

Again, I submit that S!K did not deserve the kind of hit job you put on them on here and you still keep ignoring my initial proposition that all this aggression stems from other hidden business related agenda.

 

[mlmcasual]

A fan to me means being able to give SK! credit, praise and encouragement for their product while not feeling I am betraying them or not "towing the line" If I bring up legitimate concerns in a respectful manor. The two do NOT have to be mutually exclusive. The moment you believe they do and treat them as such, you risk crossing over from being a fan to being a fanboy. That's just my OP..

 

[SURVIVE! Ellie]

Again, I submit that S!K did not deserve the kind of hit job you put on them on here and you still keep ignoring my initial proposition that all this aggression stems from other hidden business related agenda.

To my knowledge, we have never even spoken to Skystorm. I only say "to my knowledge" because if we did, it would have likely been at a time when Guy had a business partner trying to manage things. As far as I know, he is just here expressing his opinion like everyone else.

 

[winger51]

I really hate to say this, but Ellie you are very very wrong regarding this point: "That is why I had mentioned before that we are a production company making knives to a custom quality levels."

I know you are very proud of your product and I admire most of your postings here, especially walking into the room full of skeptics as it were, but an SK! is not of the caliber of a true custom. And the very definition of a custom could be from a couple of hundred dollars to a thousand or more. Its just a statement that doesn't stand. The best SK! can do at this point is to not concentrate on whats the "best" but simply to fulfill orders and realize many of the business persons involved here are restating and restating and restating the obvious. It is up to your company to take hold of what you propose as fine principals and start delivering those in real time.
The very example of 'not being familiar with Fiddleback' speaks volumes.

 

[Casinostocks]

Anyway, Skylar... I don't need you and you don't need me, so let's just leave things at that... I'll just leave it at that and I will disappear again from here...

OP, I hope that you find your peace no matter what you decide to do but to come back to your initial and original topic, if you do decide to stay in the game and if S!K goes out of business, non elf us with any skin in the game very little recourse, if any at all, if we want to fall back on our credit card or bank. I don't want my words to be misconstrued as if this scenario will happen, but anything can happen to anyone at anytime!

 

[grogimus]

One last thing- this thread would have died a long time ago to be revisited in the future as things progress. Unfortunately a couple of fanboys wandered off the Survive! Knife forum to spout their religious beliefs to people who know better. I've got no dog in this fight so who are you trying to convince?

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

Translation - If people who like S!K would just let people who have no interest in their knives dump all over them in a clusterchuck of bile and vitriol without protesting this would all be over soon.

You have no dog in this fight right? So who are you trying to convince? What's your point? "People who know better", please.

If you(in general) trust S!K to deliver, order from them. If you don't, don't. What's confusing about that?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[Skystorm]

That's just it. I don't care who you are on ebay, all you have is an unsubstantiated claim you cannot back up. Tell me who is writing the hit job again?

I have no hidden agenda since we are two completely different, if related, industries. Neither of us requires the other to uhm, survive. I am not here promoting some other knifemaker or making attempts to divert people to a different manufacturer. So I am not sure what magical hidden agenda you are referring to. What good would it do me if sk goes under? Nothing. What good does it do me if they can magically extract themselves from the hole? Again, nothing because I have absolutely zero plans to offer any products for their new knives as I have told countless people over the last two years who have inquired. I do not support this open ended pre order system.
My interests are purely in the long term viability of the entire industry, not just sk. Unlike you, I have objectivity and I know how to do math and projections based on performance both past and present as a predictor of the future and I am certainly not alone in the opinion that sk has dug a giant hole with no easy way out.

Kool-aid is for children.

Nice trite and no, I won't tell you who I am on eBay. Just know that with your coarse attitude, you never know where you're gonna bump into the same person again and I had not noticed that till I saw your signature. When someone starts a conversation with a pleasantry like Hi, Hello, and do you mind telling me... Don't act like you own the whole joint, because you don't! Good for your proclaimed sense of self respect and integrity, and if I may suggest that you apply those lofty characteristics when dealing with other too. What do the words under your moniker say again?! They certainly do not convey niceness or politeness unless I can't read very well!

Again, I submit that S!K did not deserve the kind of hit job you put on them on here and you still keep ignoring my initial proposition that all this aggression stems from other hidden business related agenda.

 

[mlmcasual]

I really hate to say this, but Ellie you are very very wrong regarding this point: "That is why I had mentioned before that we are a production company making knives to a custom quality levels."

In all fairness I don't own a custom fiddleback forge so I can't compare the newer GSO against it. I can only say I have held other production knives that don't look to hold a candle to the newer SK's fit/finish .. but can't directly compare to a very well made Custom.

 

[SURVIVE! Ellie]

I really hate to say this, but Ellie you are very very wrong regarding this point: "That is why I had mentioned before that we are a production company making knives to a custom quality levels."

I know you are very proud of your product and I admire most of your postings here, especially walking into the room full of skeptics as it were, but an SK! is not of the caliber of a true custom. And the very definition of a custom could be from a couple of hundred dollars to a thousand or more. Its just a statement that doesn't stand. The best SK! can do at this point is to not concentrate on whats the "best" but simply to fulfill orders and realize many of the business persons involved here are restating and restating and restating the obvious. It is up to your company to take hold of what you propose as fine principals and start delivering those in real time.
The very example of 'not being familiar with Fiddleback' speaks volumes.

I apologize, again, I may have been too vague. We are not on the same level as a maker who spends days, weeks, or months pouring their heart into one amazing piece. But we are also not on the same level as companies who just assemble parts. The point I was trying to make is that we are somewhere in between the two. We produce a lot of knives to a tight tolerance, like a big company does. We also take extra care in both the designing and finishing steps to make sure the fit and finish of each knife is considered. That extra time spent on quality is what sets us apart from big companies. The price tag sets us apart from custom makers.

 

[Casinostocks]

That's just it. I don't care who you are on ebay, all you have is an unsubstantiated claim you cannot back up. Tell me who is writing the hit job again?

I have no hidden agenda since we are two completely different, if related, industries. Neither of us requires the other to uhm, survive. I am not here promoting some other knifemaker or making attempts to divert people to a different manufacturer. So I am not sure what magical hidden agenda you are referring to. What good would it do me if sk goes under? Nothing. What good does it do me if they can magically extract themselves from the hole? Again, nothing because I have absolutely zero plans to offer any products for their new knives as I have told countless people over the last two years who have inquired. I do not support this open ended pre order system.
My interests are purely in the long term viability of the entire industry, not just sk. Unlike you, I have objectivity and I know how to do math and projections based on performance both past and present as a predictor of the future and I am certainly not alone in the opinion that sk has dug a giant hole with no easy way out.

Kool-aid is for children.

Thank you for encouraging me to place a couple more Survive! Knives preorders to add to my existing preorders. I really needed the extra motivation which you and your ilk provided me with. Like you seem to know so well and read people in the Bits and Bytes format so expertly, "I don't know maths and I lack objectivity".

New style GSO 10 and another GSO 4.5 BC, here comes your Daddy Casino... :thumbup:

 

[redwood22]

holy moly!!! that took a while to read through....feel free to check my post history (since that seems to be a way to discredit someones opinion) but my thoughts on all of this are extremely simple: no one is forcing anyone to do anything... what I mean by that is that if survive knives business model is not for you, its extremely simple to remove yourself from the equation. Many people have posted that they wouldn't touch this model with a 10 foot pole, and thats cool, its their choice and I am sure they(the people passing on these knives) aren't losing sleep over it. I think the real meat of the argument is that people are upset because they want something they can't easily get? Yea, that sucks! Getting a survive knife is not as easy as other brands. In fact even Busse knives seem easier now a days! But again, you have the option to remove yourself from the situation. I "got into" survive knives about 1.5 yrs ago and have since purchased 11 knives and received 10 directly from survive. My point is not to brag but to illustrate that it is not impossible...far from it...

But again, why all the constant drama? if someone isn't comfortable remove yourself and buy from someone else. I guess I just don't understand the motivation... so much wasted energy

 

[ElConquistador]

One question I have for everyone here... IF guy was not the one doing the final grinds... would an SK! knife still be an SK! knife? in quality... That is a question that really needs be asked because it's been at the heart of issue. It's been the explanation given as to why SK! doesn't grow to meet demand, and I think it's been the accepted reason SK! fans are willing to wait with open ended patience.

I have to admit that I tried a Ambush Alpha when they first came out and was disappointed. The Alpha is basically a knock off of a GSO. Same basic construction, similar blade profile, 3V, etc. I sent the Alpha back due to overall sloppiness including an uneven edge. In practice the Alpha probably would perform as well as the Survive but the details are important. Nobody is saying that Survive doesn't make a top notch knife. They do. My position is that however good the knife is I'm done putting up with their business practices. There are other choices that will be better for me.

I think the Survive fans come here to turn this thread into the mess it's becoming so it will be shut down.

Skystorm, or any other successful small business owner, is entitled to offer an opinion. I think it's entirely appropriate.

 

[mlmcasual]

I don't think SK! being a VERY good product was ever in question. If it was, this thread, these comments would never would have existed in the first place. It would be absurd to pre purchase an "ok" knife or even "good" knife. A VERY good product, and legitimate concerns about actually getting that product are just two different things. They are linked by cause-effect.. but can be addressed independently and respectfully.

 

[ncrockclimb]

holy moly!!! that took a while to read through....feel free to check my post history (since that seems to be a way to discredit someones opinion) but my thoughts on all of this are extremely simple: no one is forcing anyone to do anything... what I mean by that is that if survive knives business model is not for you, its extremely simple to remove yourself from the equation. Many people have posted that they wouldn't touch this model with a 10 foot pole, and thats cool, its their choice and I am sure they(the people passing on these knives) aren't losing sleep over it. I think the real meat of the argument is that people are upset because they want something they can't easily get? Yea, that sucks! Getting a survive knife is not as easy as other brands. In fact even Busse knives seem easier now a days! But again, you have the option to remove yourself from the situation. I "got into" survive knives about 1.5 yrs ago and have since purchased 11 knives and received 10 directly from survive. My point is not to brag but to illustrate that it is not impossible...far from it...

But again, why all the constant drama? if someone isn't comfortable remove yourself and buy from someone else. I guess I just don't understand the motivation... so much wasted energy

I don't think that is it at all. I have been on long waiting lists in the past and am on two right now. It is part of the game sometimes. That is not what this is about for me at all.

You ask "why all the constant drama?" and "I guess I just don't understand the motivation." My involvement here comes from a serious concern over S!Ks business practices and the stability of the company. I was a supporter of S!K for a long time, and advocated for the company in GBU and other forums. However, the unprofessionalism and number of red flags regarding how the company is being run make me regret this.

I have an MBA, a 17 year history in management in corp-America, and now 7 years running my own small business. You can write me off as a keyboard commando looking for attention if you want, but I spent a significant part of my career doing business development and evaluating acquisition targets. The problems with S!K business are significant and obvious, and becoming more so as time goes on. I will be VERY happy if I am wrong, but if I am not a lot of people are going to get burned and I am trying to spread the word to look out. There are more than a few loyal S!K advocates that try to squash any comment about S!K that is not positive, and I think it is time to make sure that a message of caution about S!K gets out to potential customers.

I said this earlier, but will say it again; if Skyler, the rest of the "haters" and I are so wrong, why are the S!K supporters not pointing out the inaccuracies in our arguments? Why all the attacks on the messengers or attempts to change the focus of the conversation? Why are you making this personal and not willing to discuss the facts? Why not explain why S!K is a stable company and why it is not a big deal that have not achieved most of the goals of the "starter program." Why not explain why the constantly increasing lead times should not be a concern and how this business model is not a house of cards that is just one gust of wind short of toppling. I am not being sarcastic here; if we are wrong, please point out where the error in our reasoning exists. I have nothing personal against Guy, Ellie or any of the S!K supporters, and would not be disappointed to be shown that I am wrong and how S!K has a clear path to becoming a stable going concern.

I spent a lot of time on the S!K subforum, and sincerely like a lot of you guys. I have said more than once that it is one of the more pleasant places on BladeForums.com, and I don't want to offend you guys. I do think that more than a few of you have lost your objectivity, and are missing some pretty obvious red flags. I too really like my S!K knives (I own 3), but it is painfully obvious to me that Guy and Ellie just don't have the tools to manage this organization. They might be really nice, hard working people with a great vision for their company, but imho they are screwing up in a big way and need to be called on it.

I wish you all the best and sincerely mean no disrespect. However, I feel strongly about this and will continue to present my position until S!K straightens out their business or ceases operations.

 

[Skystorm]

Quality was never an issue, I have one in every flavor of the older models. SK puts out a great product, enough so that others are emulating it right down to their packaging style.

 

[redwood22]

I wish you all the best and sincerely mean no disrespect.

sigh...

The thing these threads keep missing, and that all the people who feel the need to fill the forums with their business resumes to prove why their opinion is more valid are missing isn't that the guys that have a more "pro" survive opinion aren't worried, or are somehow blind to potential issues. It's not that they aren't worried that a one man sharpening crew is quite the bottleneck. It's not even that they aren't bummed they won't get their 4.7 in time for a fishing trip. Its that they understand the risks and are willing to take them. What is frustrating, is all the people who aren't willing to take the risk who seem hell bent on convincing everyone else they are stupid. How should one NOT take that personally? How is that NOT disrespectful. Every person is an adult and can manage their own risk reward ratios. I didn't go all in spending $1000 on starters, I bought a 3.5 and a 5.1 and picked up 2x5.1 2nds when they were offered. That was the risk I was willing to take. If you dropped $1k and are suddenly feeling the squeeze, ask for a refund and be done with it?!

I also have about $2k tied up in O2W from Busse, so you can say I am just a jaded fanboy, but the jab won't hit that hard. Frankly my gripe with Busse is that they don't take money up front, but again that is a personal opinion of mine, and I still choose to buy from their company.

My suggestion to those people that are so truly on a mission to "get the word out" is to start a thread every 2 months, with links to all the other threads where this issue has been beaten to death, Immediately lock the thread. That way you can get your message out, and no one has to worry about "fanboys" or "haters" which are names so childish it pains me that the discussion has fallen to that level of discourse...

 

[Casinostocks]

NCRockclimb, while I do enjoy a cogent, well articulated and fact filled discussion about the Co which makes the kind of knives which most of us own, like (love?) and cherish, please start reading this thread from the beginning again and report back truthfully as to who started the hyperbole and the use of words and phrases laced with such as, "sham", scam", "fraud", "house of cards", "Ponzi scheme" and so forth to the foray?! I would not consider these detractors the purveyors of the truth and the pantheon of fairness!

If you are advocating a discussion in a civilized manner, I am the first one all who will be all for a platform like that. No one accused you of being a "keyboard commando" but the person whose posts are readily referred to as, and I'm paraphrasing, "sound advise from a shrewd small business owner". Respect is a two way street in my World so those who seek it must be prepared to give it too. Dismissing some of the BF's fellow members by calling them fanboys, shaming them by highlighting their posting habits, the forum on which they dwell and frequency is just juvenile bullying tactics. These sort of tactics show a serious lack of of common respectfulness and proper forum decorum.

 

[mlmcasual]

sigh...

The thing these threads keep missing, and that all the people who feel the need to fill the forums with their business resumes to prove why their opinion is more valid are missing isn't that the guys that have a more "pro" survive opinion aren't worried, or are somehow blind to potential issues. It's not that they aren't worried that a one man sharpening crew is quite the bottleneck. It's not even that they aren't bummed they won't get their 4.7 in time for a fishing trip. Its that they understand the risks and are willing to take them. What is frustrating, is all the people who aren't willing to take the risk who seem hell bent on convincing everyone else they are stupid. How should one NOT take that personally? How is that NOT disrespectful. Every person is an adult and can manage their own risk reward ratios. I didn't go all in spending $1000 on starters, I bought a 3.5 and a 5.1 and picked up 2x5.1 2nds when they were offered. That was the risk I was willing to take. If you dropped $1k and are suddenly feeling the squeeze, ask for a refund and be done with it?!

I also have about $2k tied up in O2W from Busse, so you can say I am just a jaded fanboy, but the jab won't hit that hard. Frankly my gripe with Busse is that they don't take money up front, but again that is a personal opinion of mine, and I still choose to buy from their company.

My suggestion to those people that are so truly on a mission to "get the word out" is to start a thread every 2 months, with links to all the other threads where this issue has been beaten to death, Immediately lock the thread. That way you can get your message out, and no one has to worry about "fanboys" or "haters" which are names so childish it pains me that the discussion has fallen to that level of discourse...

They understand the risks and willing to take them..

. Really?? Then you must know something I don't know.
I have spent thousand's on SKs and have (had) a grand on preorder/prepurchase. This thread was (originally) meant to try to figure out the risk based on other people's knowledge of other company's that have gone through the same up front business practices and growing pains as SK - and how it turned out. The entire point being, I DON'T know the risk because I have no other frame of reference and have no stability from SK! to base my own risk.

meat of the argument is that people are upset because they want something they can't easily get

Not everyone is arguing here, and the "meat" of the point is trying to get a handle on weighing, and understanding the risk. It's not that all people know the risk they are getting into and willing to accept it and this is just a matter of sour grapes people that can't get what they want. That may be true of some but certainly not all.

 

[redwood22]

. Really?? Then you must know something I don't know.
I have spent thousand's on SKs and have (had) a grand on preorder/prepurchase. This thread was (originally) meant to try to figure out the risk based on other people's knowledge of other company's that have gone through the same up front business practices and growing pains as SK - and how it turned out. The entire point being, I DON'T know the risk because I have no other frame of reference and have no stability from SK! to base my own risk.

thats curious, why would you spend 1k if you don't know the risks? Worst case the risk is Survive goes belly up you lose all your money? How is that not clear? The business model is exactly the same as any project on Kickstarter, some do really well, other don't. You assume a level of risk when you back those projects... to say you didn't understand the risks seems either naive or completely disingenuous. If you truly don't understand that, then you should ask for a full refund, sit on the sidelines and wait until things stabilize.

I feel like the starter program was extremely explicit and frankly offered somewhat of a caution or warning. At the time, I chose to not put anything on order because I won't buy things off of renderings. I preordered my wife a 3.5 after one night thinking f-it, if i never see it then so be it. When the 5.1's came up for pre-sale in dec, I jumped on one because they at that time had full fledged photos. These were choices I made. I also really want a GSO 6 but need to spend the money elsewhere right now, so I held off... these are adult life choices...I don't understand why they are so hard for some people...

 

[KELAMA]

sigh...

What is frustrating, is all the people who aren't willing to take the risk who seem hell bent on convincing everyone else they are stupid.

^ Most of the "objective" commenter's here in this thread, have not been hell bent on convincing people that you (the fan boy's), are stupid.

The OP started a thread, seeking opinions. The consensus here is: Survive!'s business model is seriously flawed, & will not be able to sustain itself, if changes aren't implemented...soon!

What is frustrating, is seeing the blatantly biased SK! fan boy's coming on here, & acting so defensively! Some of you people seem to have difficulty processing the information posted, & also twisting other commenter's word's around!

It doesn't take a genius to figure out, what the future of SK will be, provided they don't make some radical changes, immediately!

Personally, I don't care what any of you do with your money. I just hope none of you come here to the GBU whining, if & when things go South...

I do wish SK! nothing but the best, & truly hope that they get things on the right track & ultimately succeed! :thumbup:

I don't think that is it at all. I have been on long waiting lists in the past and am on two right now. It is part of the game sometimes. That is not what this is about for me at all.

You ask "why all the constant drama?" and "I guess I just don't understand the motivation." My involvement here comes from a serious concern over S!Ks business practices and the stability of the company. I was a supporter of S!K for a long time, and advocated for the company in GBU and other forums. However, the unprofessionalism and number of red flags regarding how the company is being run make me regret this.

I have an MBA, a 17 year history in management in corp-America, and now 7 years running my own small business. You can write me off as a keyboard commando looking for attention if you want, but I spent a significant part of my career doing business development and evaluating acquisition targets. The problems with S!K business are significant and obvious, and becoming more so as time goes on. I will be VERY happy if I am wrong, but if I am not a lot of people are going to get burned and I am trying to spread the word to look out. There are more than a few loyal S!K advocates that try to squash any comment about S!K that is not positive, and I think it is time to make sure that a message of caution about S!K gets out to potential customers.

I said this earlier, but will say it again; if Skyler, the rest of the "haters" and I are so wrong, why are the S!K supporters not pointing out the inaccuracies in our arguments? Why all the attacks on the messengers or attempts to change the focus of the conversation? Why are you making this personal and not willing to discuss the facts? Why not explain why S!K is a stable company and why it is not a big deal that have not achieved most of the goals of the "starter program." Why not explain why the constantly increasing lead times should not be a concern and how this business model is not a house of cards that is just one gust of wind short of toppling. I am not being sarcastic here; if we are wrong, please point out where the error in our reasoning exists. I have nothing personal against Guy, Ellie or any of the S!K supporters, and would not be disappointed to be shown that I am wrong and how S!K has a clear path to becoming a stable going concern.

I spent a lot of time on the S!K sub forum, and sincerely like a lot of you guys. I have said more than once that it is one of the more pleasant places on BladeForums.com, and I don't want to offend you guys. I do think that more than a few of you have lost your objectivity, and are missing some pretty obvious red flags. I too really like my S!K knives (I own 3), but it is painfully obvious to me that Guy and Ellie just don't have the tools to manage this organization. They might be really nice, hard working people with a great vision for their company, but imho they are screwing up in a big way and need to be called on it.

I wish you all the best and sincerely mean no disrespect. However, I feel strongly about this and will continue to present my position until S!K straightens out their business or ceases operations.

^ I personally think that your post was very objective, excellently worded, & very civil, ncrockclimb. :thumbup::thumbup: