What is reasonable and legal?

[Hard Knocks]

I asked this before but it got lost in the sea of hyperbole I think.

Does anyone know if the person named "Guy" at Survive Knives is affiliated with the Bushcraft USA website/forums?

I don't know the answer to that John. I don't believe there's an affiliation there, and if there is, it has never been discussed to my knowledge in the S!K subforum here on Blade.

I have little doubt that the mods would have intervened were your opinion shared by a substantial proportion of this subforum...

Possibly. Most of your posts have come after Rev's last word of caution earlier so we shall see. However, that will be the moderation staff's call, not a vote of the subforum. I'd err on the side of caution, but as always YMMV.

 

[Skystorm]

It matters in that you have no control over the continued pricing structure of that 90% since it is outsourced whether it be price increases, a supplier or contractor being injured, sued or unable to continue and shutting its doors or filing bankruptcy in the middle of an sk order. As currently projected even best estimates give a 3 year window to see current models completed. How often do you get a salary raise? Most business adjust to inflation yearly which would be really inconvenient to say the least if your running on three year old pricing structure.

I did not say they were masquerading as anything but what they are. Stick to the facts or offer supporting facts as to how they can continue indefinitely in their current business model.

This is a very specific fact. How did you arrive to this number?

Also, why does it matter? This has come up a few times as if SURVIVE! is masquerading as a custom knife operation... but they don't.

 

[ncrockclimb]

I asked this before but it got lost in the sea of hyperbole I think.

Does anyone know if the person named "Guy" at Survive Knives is affiliated with the Bushcraft USA website/forums?

100% these are different "Guys" and that there is no affiliation / business relationship between S!K and Bushcraft USA.

 

[Silver Needle]

It matters in that you have no control over the continued pricing structure of that 90% since it is outsourced whether it be price increases, a supplier or contractor being injured, sued or unable to continue and shutting its doors or filing bankruptcy in the middle of an sk order. As currently projected even best estimates give a 3 year window to see current models completed. How often do you get a salary raise? Most business adjust to inflation yearly which would be really inconvenient to say the least if your running on three year old pricing structure.

I did not say they were masquerading as anything but what they are. Stick to the facts or offer supporting facts as to how they can continue indefinitely in their current business model.

I edited my post after reading yours closer. My "masquerading" comment should have been more directed at other, earlier posts from others not your most recent one. The use of "only a production company" seemed to be used to discredit SURVIVE! as a business.

I hate to say it, but you bring up points I hadn't thought of before. I don't have any explanation on their longevity. I can say I still support them.

 

[JohnWE]

100% these are different "Guys" and that there is no affiliation / business relationship between S!K and Bushcraft USA.

Thanks.

 

[JohnWE]

I don't know the answer to that John. I don't believe there's an affiliation there, and if there is, it has never been discussed to my knowledge in the S!K subforum here on Blade.



Possibly. Most of your posts have come after Rev's last word of caution earlier so we shall see. However, that will be the moderation staff's call, not a vote of the subforum. I'd err on the side of caution, but as always YMMV.

Thanks

 

[ncrockclimb]

I edited my post after reading yours closer. My "masquerading" comment should have been more directed at other, earlier posts from others not your most recent one. The use of "only a production company" seemed to be used to discredit SURVIVE! as a business.

I hate to say it, but you bring up points I hadn't thought of before. I don't have any explanation on their longevity. I can say I still support them.

I just wanted to say that I appreciate the content and "tone" of your posts. While our opinions on this issue are not the same, you have continued to take the high road in this thread. Your honesty regarding how you view the company is appreciated.

 

[mtangent]

Outsourcing is not bad, it can be a great business model.
But if they outsource 90%, or even 60%, how does a backlog develop?
Outsourcing is a great way to end a backlog without having to find staff or buy new tools.

It can't just be because one guy does all the sharpening, can it?

 

[Skystorm]

A good analogy would be to think of a funnel, alot of stuff can be poured in but it's only going to come out so fast at the other end no matter how fast your pour into it. They refuse to hire anyone competent enough to help with the main grinding task which is their main bottleneck. I know a good many Machinists, they understand measurements but you do have to pay them an appropriate wage for their technical skill. You can't hire some unskilled body off the street, or worse one of your buddies and expect them to start duplicating in two weeks what took you 5 years to master.

Outsourcing is not bad, it can be a great business model.
But if they outsource 90%, or even 60%, how does a backlog develop?
Outsourcing is a great way to end a backlog without having to find staff or buy new tools.

It can't just be because one guy does all the sharpening, can it?

 

[Silver Needle]

I just wanted to say that I appreciate the content and "tone" of your posts. While our opinions on this issue are not the same, you have continued to take the high road in this thread. Your honesty regarding how you view the company is appreciated.

Thank you, nc.

 

[mlmcasual]

Outsourcing is not bad, it can be a great business model.
But if they outsource 90%, or even 60%, how does a backlog develop?
Outsourcing is a great way to end a backlog without having to find staff or buy new tools.

It can't just be because one guy does all the sharpening, can it?

As far as I know of SK, Each outsourced manufacturing process is handled one knife model at a time, one tooling setup at a time. And likewise, the final grinds are done one knife at a time. SO there are no assembly line, or multiple manufacturing vendors doing processes in parallel. SK is NOT set up like say BarkRiver where you have five guys grinding, 5 guys assembling handles, multiple shops doing tooling.. etc.. SK is a "craft" builder.. one model, one knife at a time.. the process is linear and first in first out. The backlog then is for having Nine different models and having commitments to prepurchases spread throughout those nine different models. Each of those nine models require unique tooling and setup which as been one of my greatest concerns. That's nine completely new tooling setups. SK! has gone on record to mention this as the "downside" of having differing models, the inefficiency of having doing new tooling from scratch nine times.. This has been a concern of mine.

 

[Silver Needle]

Outsourcing is not bad, it can be a great business model.
But if they outsource 90%, or even 60%, how does a backlog develop?
Outsourcing is a great way to end a backlog without having to find staff or buy new tools.

It can't just be because one guy does all the sharpening, can it?

I don't know where the "90% outsourcing" comes from.

Examples of SURVIVE!'s outsourcing include steel sheets getting cut into blade blanks and heat treating. Things done in house include blade finishing and engraving. The owner of the company is the only one who sharpens the knives. It's an admitted bottle neck, but not something they're willing to compromise on. Some people admire their dedication to excellence and some think they're stubborn and dooming themselves to failure. I still don't think this thread will change the course of the company, but I trust time will tell.

 

[mtangent]

Using the prepayments for the capital outlay involved in tooling is a reasonable thing.

 

[Silver Needle]

That's nine completely new tooling setups. SK! has gone on record to mention this as the "downside" of having differing models, the inefficiency of having doing new tooling from scratch nine times.. This has been a concern of mine.

I can't say if it will dispell the current, sizeable backlog, but the idea is that things are at their slowest now while everything is new. As they finish up each model for the first time, it should be more efficient the second time around. Again, I'm not saying that will cure the current concerns, but it's something positive.

 

[Slipperyfish]

This just keeps going. It all has to do with expectations, risk tolerance and demand. For the record, I placed a starter order on 3/31/15 for a 4.1.

I expected to have it in a few months. However, those expectations were based on what I wanted, not what was communicated by Survive!. Obviously, I've had to adjust those expectations.

I also did my due diligence and understood what I was getting into with the starter program. I want a 4.1 and was willing to pay upfront and assume any risk associated with doing so.

The reason I was willing to take the risk was the high demand that reduced the likelihood of getting one when available on the site and drove up secondary market prices.

I don't see where Survive! has been misleading regarding availability or lead times. They aren't selling through distribution so it's not like I'm getting bumped to the back of the list in favor of dealers.

Guy is obviously a perfectionist. I like that in someone making a knife I'm going to buy. However, it also increases production time as he has to finish every knife.

As for the sustainability of their business model, I guess we'll have to wait and see. Hope I don't lose out on my knife or money, but long production cycles certainly increase the possibility.

Would I do it again? Probably not. Do I have anyone to blame but myself? No.

 

[AmericanAsApple3.14]

... They refuse to hire anyone competent enough to help with the main grinding task which is their main bottleneck. I know a good many Machinists, they understand measurements but you do have to pay them an appropriate wage for their technical skill. You can't hire some unskilled body off the street, or worse one of your buddies and expect them to start duplicating in two weeks what took you 5 years to master.

I just don't think this is a correct/fair/accurate post (the part i quoted). They've on numerous occasions indicated their willingness to hire (and obviously pay them). But, they've also indicated their unwillingness to just hire anyone and certainly not just "some unskilled body off the street". That's what's gotten them into trouble before - hiring people who had to be trained from scratch and ultimately weren't up to it. I also don't think I've ever seen any indication that they were unwilling to train someone, but again, like you mentioned, you can't just hire some rando or your buddy and expect it to work out. I've admittedly never worked in a machine shop but it sounds like tedious work. Is this their problem and something that needs addressed? Of course.

Do you know machinists in Kellogg, ID - or surrounding area? Or elsewhere who will move to ID? Maybe you do - I really don't know anything about you but I'm guessing you have a lot more years in the industry and probably have quite a few more contacts than they do. I think you're genuinely bringing up concerns with no malicious intent toward the people themselves. In all seriousness, if you do know competent machinists (or perhaps shops with valid candidate pools) who would put up with what I perceive to be an OCD level of commitment to quality and the finished product I really think you should turn them on to Survive. Not trying to be facetious at all - I think everyone here agrees that they could use the help.

That's obviously not your problem or responsibility, but you seem pretty active here and I make my suggestions from being a supporter of the company and people and just looking to help.

 

[Silver Needle]

Here's a question I hesitated to ask, but this might be the best place for it...

Does anyone know much about the business practices of Miller Bros.? They're also a 3 person operation with popular knives and high standards. They are a fully custom company, but there seems to be enough similarities to compare.

They also ask for full payment upfront, but when I was quoted an 18-20 week wait, I got my knife in the 17th week. They are stable enough to close their books when their back log grows too long. Can something be learned here?

 

[mlmcasual]

Here's a question I hesitated to ask, but this might be the best place for it...

Does anyone know much about the business practices of Miller Bros.? They're also a 3 person operation with popular knives and high standards. They are a fully custom company, but there seems to be enough similarities to compare.

They also ask for full payment upfront, but when I was quoted an 18-20 week wait, I got my knife in the 17th week. They are stable enough to close their books when their back log grows too long. Can something be learned here?

They take money up front but that's where the similarity to SK! end..

* MB makes CUSTOM BY HAND all in-house with No machining much MUCH more labor intensive and handmade then SK!
* MB Gives customers a lead time quote (SK does not).. and MB delivers on those quotes with stabilized regularity..
* MB CLOSES the books when Lead-Times get to long.. SK! does not.. SK! leaves "the books" open on preorders even when lead times are looking to run in the years.

 

[mlmcasual]

Now I have a VERY important question for this Thread ...

Does SK! allow/honor Refunds for knives that "are in production".. Ie, the 7/7?

There has been a recent large jump in the "in production" lineup" so this is a very important question.. Anyone know?

 

[TsarBomba]

I'd hope so since "in production" seems to be a vastly open-ended proposition for this company, and most of the begrudging acceptance of S!K as legitimate business stems from the repeated claims by (presumably) customers or would-be customers that their refunds were or could be processed free of hassle.