What is reasonable and legal?

[Casinostocks]

No sane business owner would do that. Even bank loan is better alternative.

You are absolutely and positively incorrect! Many well established business invesors bring intangible assets and acumen into a business in which they invest in, whereby a bank loan albeit less "expensive" will NOT be able to offer the many extras which are necessary for the business expansion and viability. What do you think venture capitalist exist for then? And please spare me the lecture about "vulture" capitalism, Wall Street etc (personally not a big fan of predatory practices, but some form of evil exists in all systems hence the required regulations either by big government or the articles of incorporation / other regulatory legal entities ).

As for the program which I have mentioned, there are plenty of success stories whereby the original cadre was too burnt out , too cash strapped and too consumed in internal bickering to find a clear way out of their perils. A bank loan simply does not allow one access to proper and expert marketing, advertising, networking; etc... It's not a fail safe method but a viable alternative in some case whereby a little of something is much better than a whole load of nothing!

Disclaimer: we are now talking OT and I'm not referring to S!K and what they ought to do or what not to do!

 

[Casinostocks]

MLM, you are correct about the other P standing for Process and I called it Procedure. I stand corrected.

 

[mlmcasual]

Honestly I can't speak with authority on business loans vs.. "crowd sourcing" up-front payment... it's a bizzare comparison to be honest. I have had customers I required up front payment but ONLY foreign (Asia) new customers. It is UNHEARD of in my industry to require payment up front. We work off a 30 day Net Purchase order as do the vast vast majority of small businesses. I mean like 99% in america I am sure.

Crowdsourcing models are (relatively) new and something I am not familiar with. But whether it's crowdsourcing, bankloans, whatever,.... the fundamentals of businesses still apply.. and one of those is debt.. working in the red or working in the black. And carrying on 2+ years production times for prepaid items is "debt" anyway you slice it. My company has NEVER carried debt - we work in "cash" and only buy what we can afford. When business turned down a few years back I took a half pay cut.. HALF!! and I have worked 80 hour weeks and even once worked a 32 hour day.. ( that's not a typo). But I bet other people here have similar stories as mine.. I am not unique.. and with all due respect, neither is the "stuggle" at SK!.
Thats not to say we can't emphasize with them.. all props go out.. it's just, well.. we all struggle..

 

[bghorn]

You are absolutely and positively incorrect!

"complete control of those said businesses.", that's what I was referring to.

Investors are fine, but you wouldn't want them having more than 49% of (economic or otherwise) interest in your company.

 

[Casinostocks]

Alright fellas. I've said all that I could have brought onto here. Good luck in all your endeavors. :thumbup:

 

[braillediver]

At some point there's a turning point or a point of no return and a reasonable awareness of when the time should be. Selling store credit called an investment is strange and even mentioning $1000 \ $2500 \ $5000 investments is stranger.

When reading posts- open their profile \ check their post areas \ identify as a fanboy and ignore.

Running a business and the economics involved is interesting. Many a great knife maker are horrible businessmen. Being a fanboy alters your perception it doesn't alter the reality of economics.

 

[Skystorm]

You assume that hiring people somehow equates to inferior quality. Your grinding blanks and assembling handles, It's not rocket science by any means but teaching people costs both time and money neither of which are obviously in a great deal of supply hence the never ending crowdfunding for every single design. Hiring employees puts the onus on you to hire a qualified candidate and to train them sufficiently with enough time allowed to master the task they were hired for. If three additional people cannot equal the work of one single person then they were quite obviously not properly trained and the excuse of we can't train anyone so we just won't hire anyone and will just extend our already indefinite lead time into infinity is both laughable and unethical.

Other companies follow the same model, Bark River's Ambush line, Fiddleback Production, except that they can deliver, designed, built, and tested out of their own pocket, without the multitude of delays and the associated seemingly never ending excuses.
-----------------

We are not entirely a production company. The heavy machining is production, and that is outsourced to companies who we feel are the best in the industry. Why? Because we believe each knife should be made to a very tight tolerance and we don’t have $2mil to invest in that equipment ourselves. The finishing is custom quality, and we do all of that in house. We call ourselves a craft knife manufacturer because we make production knives, to custom quality standards. That is where the delay is, because we won’t ship out a knife that isn’t to our standard.
In the past, we did hire. There were 3 people doing the sharpening Guy does now, and they took just as much time while producing worse results. If/when we find that person who is right for the job, we will hire them and make them as happy as possible. It isn’t hard to hire people, but it is hard to find people who will care about your product even close to as much as you do.
As for just hiring someone to help with pre-paid orders… Say that speeds things up and we are able to get the preorders fulfilled within 6 months. How would you feel if you paid 6 months in advance and received a product that is inferior to what the Monday order folks are getting? In my mind, that is unethical. We promise customers our best and that is what we intend to give them. While there are a few who are upset right now, the majority of people have been quietly waiting. It would be entirely unfair to give the majority a lesser product just to appease the few who are tired of waiting.

There is a simple reason SK can't do a traditional business or SBA loan. It requires the loan officer to meticulously comb through your finances both personal and professional. No bank is going to make a loan to a 'Craft' company that is already 1.5-2 years in debt and still selling products that do not exist rather than closing books and making every effort to clear the backlog. I find it interesting that you have enough time to produce additional knives for monday sales rather than focus that time on the orders that were already paid for.

 

[winger51]

You assume that hiring people somehow equates to inferior quality. Your grinding blanks and assembling handles, It's not rocket science by any means but teaching people costs both time and money neither of which are obviously in a great deal of supply hence the never ending crowdfunding for every single design. Hiring employees puts the onus on you to hire a qualified candidate and to train them sufficiently with enough time allowed to master the task they were hired for. If three additional people cannot equal the work of one single person then they were quite obviously not properly trained and the excuse of we can't train anyone so we just won't hire anyone and will just extend our already indefinite lead time into infinity is both laughable and unethical.

Other companies follow the same model, Bark River's Ambush line, Fiddleback Production, except that they can deliver, designed, built, and tested out of their own pocket, without the multitude of delays and the associated seemingly never ending excuses.
-----------------





There is a simple reason SK can't do a traditional business or SBA loan. It requires the loan officer to meticulously comb through your finances both personal and professional. No bank is going to make a loan to a 'Craft' company that is already 1.5-2 years in debt and still selling products that do not exist rather than closing books and making every effort to clear the backlog. I find it interesting that you have enough time to produce additional knives for monday sales rather than focus that time on the orders that were already paid for.

Without a doubt the most illustrative, intelligent, comprehensive post on this thread (and I am very appreciative of all the posts) and I thank you for putting forth the sentiments of those of us who remain objective regarding their business. Yet, on their sub forum the accolades continue and somehow I wonder whether those involved realize they are only continuing the facade.

One more thought, and I'm sure it will lead to flames, but I am passionate about knives being made in the USA. And I have literally hundreds of examples of one off customs, mid techs and production models. So personally I find it insulting to read that they can't find capable employees assigned to a very single purpose.....grinding. And if they aren't capable of grinding, then how about assigning them to assembling those knives. Or further down the assembly line, how about boxing and printing labels. I find it further insulting for it to be said that there aren't dozens of individuals who would be capable of simple processes involved in their production level knives. American workers are intelligent and devoted and willing to learn to contribute to the process. Their knives are not of custom level expectations. They outsource a majority of the components. I am not questioning their quality as I own a 3.5 and 4.1 but my capacity for being duped by excuse posts on their part has reached its end.

I really tire of the non analytical posts on their forum. So be it, and as Casinostocks has previously stated....I'm outta here.

 

[KELAMA]

Running a business and the economics involved is interesting. Many a great knife maker are horrible businessmen. Being a fanboy alters your perception it doesn't alter the reality of economics.

^ :thumbup:

No bank is going to make a loan to a 'Craft' company that is already 1.5-2 years in debt and still selling products that do not exist rather than closing books and making every effort to clear the backlog. I find it interesting that you have enough time to produce additional knives for monday sales rather than focus that time on the orders that were already paid for.

^ This! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Without a doubt the most illustrative, intelligent, comprehensive post on this thread (and I am very appreciative of all the posts) and I thank you for putting forth the sentiments of those of us who remain objective regarding their business.

^ +1

 

[ncrockclimb]

You assume that hiring people somehow equates to inferior quality. Your grinding blanks and assembling handles, It's not rocket science by any means but teaching people costs both time and money neither of which are obviously in a great deal of supply hence the never ending crowdfunding for every single design. Hiring employees puts the onus on you to hire a qualified candidate and to train them sufficiently with enough time allowed to master the task they were hired for. If three additional people cannot equal the work of one single person then they were quite obviously not properly trained and the excuse of we can't train anyone so we just won't hire anyone and will just extend our already indefinite lead time into infinity is both laughable and unethical.

Other companies follow the same model, Bark River's Ambush line, Fiddleback Production, except that they can deliver, designed, built, and tested out of their own pocket, without the multitude of delays and the associated seemingly never ending excuses.
-----------------
There is a simple reason SK can't do a traditional business or SBA loan. It requires the loan officer to meticulously comb through your finances both personal and professional. No bank is going to make a loan to a 'Craft' company that is already 1.5-2 years in debt and still selling products that do not exist rather than closing books and making every effort to clear the backlog. I find it interesting that you have enough time to produce additional knives for monday sales rather than focus that time on the orders that were already paid for.

Great post.

 

[ElConquistador]

You do know that the first part of the "vacation" was a funeral right? There was other things they had planned as well - like moving Guy's Grandmother across country to be with them (not sure why taking care of aging, alone relatives should be a concern!!!). Yes, I believe Ellie had some regular downtime with a friend scheduled but I'd say "vacation" - especially for Guy - is a bit of a stretch. Again, all this criticism is based on fodder provided by the company themselves. Something they did to keep people informed and certainly nothing they had to do. At least that's how I take it - others may take it as excuse making. And everyone who is concerned about what might happen (which is perfectly understandable, you never know what 6mo or a year can hold) can just not buy or get their $ back if they already did!

A week long funeral in Hawaii during Blade? Yes. I caught that. Thanks.

On the one hand you're right, they don't have to tell us about their personal issues. On the other hand, they have been making excuses since Christmas so it is reasonable for customers to have some type of explanation.

Look, if they are going to make excuses I'm going to make judgments on them.

When business turned down a few years back I took a half pay cut.. HALF!! and I have worked 80 hour weeks and even once worked a 32 hour day.. ( that's not a typo). But I bet other people here have similar stories as mine.. I am not unique.. and with all due respect, neither is the "stuggle" at SK!.
Thats not to say we can't emphasize with them.. all props go out.. it's just, well.. we all struggle..

A lot of us have worked in small business and it can suck but like you said the struggle is not unique. When you are in small business you do what you have to do to get the job done.

You assume that hiring people somehow equates to inferior quality. Your grinding blanks and assembling handles, It's not rocket science by any means but teaching people costs both time and money neither of which are obviously in a great deal of supply hence the never ending crowdfunding for every single design. Hiring employees puts the onus on you to hire a qualified candidate and to train them sufficiently with enough time allowed to master the task they were hired for. If three additional people cannot equal the work of one single person then they were quite obviously not properly trained and the excuse of we can't train anyone so we just won't hire anyone and will just extend our already indefinite lead time into infinity is both laughable and unethical.

Other companies follow the same model, Bark River's Ambush line, Fiddleback Production, except that they can deliver, designed, built, and tested out of their own pocket, without the multitude of delays and the associated seemingly never ending excuses.
-----------------





There is a simple reason SK can't do a traditional business or SBA loan. It requires the loan officer to meticulously comb through your finances both personal and professional. No bank is going to make a loan to a 'Craft' company that is already 1.5-2 years in debt and still selling products that do not exist rather than closing books and making every effort to clear the backlog. I find it interesting that you have enough time to produce additional knives for monday sales rather than focus that time on the orders that were already paid for.

Said better than I ever could by someone who obviously knows a thing or two about running a small business. I'm done too.

 

[mlmcasual]

You assume that hiring people somehow equates to inferior quality.

There is a simple reason SK can't do a traditional business or SBA loan. It requires the loan officer to meticulously comb through your finances both personal and professional. No bank is going to make a loan to a 'Craft' company that is already 1.5-2 years in debt and still selling products that do not exist rather than closing books and making every effort to clear the backlog. I find it interesting that you have enough time to produce additional knives for monday sales rather than focus that time on the orders that were already paid for.

.
No sugar coating it there. given me a lot to think abou
Your statement about "still selling products rather then closing the books and clearing backlog".. really hits home...
SK now has NINE Backloged models. Considering they have only been able to make one~two models a year.. for years now, why did they open up the books and expand the backlog to NINE different models?

Ellie, all good intentions aside, opening up a preorder backlog for Nine models didn't seem excessive to you guys? Even if you could have met your wildest best guess production estimates at three/year that would make for 3 years lead time by the most OPTIMISTIC estimates.. Was SK comfortable with three years backlog? What IS SK's comfort level for backlog on prepaid items?

 

[TsarBomba]

You have been in this preorder queue for longer period than I have and you have legitimate reasons for your concerns. To me it seems that you have gotten spooked enough to be embarking down the refund route on some or all your orders. However, I do not agree with your tactics of posting on here and also on the other thread which HK had highlighted. Granted that you sought opinions of those without any skin in the game, but inevitably you have attracted the attention of those who deem the actions of the Co as "scam". We (collectively) had a discussion about these issues on the subforum and many had suggested to you via posts and PMs that it was your right to opt out and to seek a refund. If the Co fails to refund you fully in a timely manner, then they earn the dubious right of being exposed on the GBU or the W&C forums. There is no evidence so far, what so ever that they have failed to refund on long standing and yet unfulfilled orders.

I have zero skin in this game, have never in fact handled a Survive! production knife (despite seeing a few on fleabay that piqued my curiosity), and have no plans to pay 100% of any amount up front for any knife without a strong and widespread reputation and consumer protections that can be freely employed the second I get a whiff of stink in the air surrouding the transaction.

The descriptions of these business practices, including those from Guy and Ellie themselves, definitely toe the line of "scam" in my mind. At best, it is a practice that does not inspire much confidence in long-term viability. The only saving graces at this point are a) the fact that Guy and Ellie have already stated their cases, and b) the seeming availability of a good-faith refund for those who do not wish to continue waiting (this is obviously pending any further grief mlmcasual might experience in actually obtaining said refund). And, while I have not run a knife company, I have been integrally involved with factories that have paying customers (and I harbor no delusions that building knives is any sort of special segment of manufacturing).

Consider the possibility that what mlm has "attracted" are nothing more than other like-minded individuals expressing surprise (or stronger emotions) that an American fabricator with what appears to be an strong desire to reach out to prospective and existing customers is using this business model (similar versions of which have been vociferously criticized in this and other BFC forums).

Opinion: Stated. Let the fanboys unleash the dogs of war. I can handle it.

 

[TsarBomba]

I can't say what is or isn't legal. But before throwing out such an aggressive word, I wish you would have just asked us about refunds.

He "threw out" that "aggressive word" long before your company was named -- by another poster who recognized your practices and verbiage, I might add.

If I were MLM, I'd close this thread now because it will go no where constructive beyond this point (or I'd ask a Mod to do it for me).

This would benefit S!K and their supporters exclusively and (implicitly) support the practices that are under debate. I strongly disagree, considering the timbre of the OP.

You assume that hiring people somehow equates to inferior quality. Your grinding blanks and assembling handles, It's not rocket science by any means but teaching people costs both time and money neither of which are obviously in a great deal of supply hence the never ending crowdfunding for every single design. Hiring employees puts the onus on you to hire a qualified candidate and to train them sufficiently with enough time allowed to master the task they were hired for. If three additional people cannot equal the work of one single person then they were quite obviously not properly trained and the excuse of we can't train anyone so we just won't hire anyone and will just extend our already indefinite lead time into infinity is both laughable and unethical.
Other companies follow the same model, Bark River's Ambush line, Fiddleback Production, except that they can deliver, designed, built, and tested out of their own pocket, without the multitude of delays and the associated seemingly never ending excuses.
There is a simple reason SK can't do a traditional business or SBA loan. It requires the loan officer to meticulously comb through your finances both personal and professional. No bank is going to make a loan to a 'Craft' company that is already 1.5-2 years in debt and still selling products that do not exist rather than closing books and making every effort to clear the backlog. I find it interesting that you have enough time to produce additional knives for monday sales rather than focus that time on the orders that were already paid for.

Outstanding post. There are "explanations" and there are "excuses". The former usually accompanies a tangible plan for improvement of processes (again, here in the business world -- if someone is going to claim that cutlery is beyond the pale or otherwise deserving of special consideration then an exceedingly powerful argument had better accompany the claim). S!K has reasonable prices, what appear to be excellent knives whose demand far outstrips their supply, and communicative employees. Unfortunately, what they don't seem to have is a plan to improve these processes with all this "crowdfunding" or "investment" in the future.

I hope for S!K's sake and for their customers/"investors" that they put one into place soon.

 

[craytab]

He "threw out" that "aggressive word" long before your company was named -- by another poster who recognized your practices and verbiage, I might add.



This would benefit S!K and their supporters exclusively and (implicitly) support the practices that are under debate. I strongly disagree, considering the timbre of the OP.



Outstanding post. There are "explanations" and there are "excuses". The former usually accompanies a tangible plan for improvement of processes (again, here in the business world -- if someone is going to claim that cutlery is beyond the pale or otherwise deserving of special consideration then an exceedingly powerful argument had better accompany the claim). S!K has reasonable prices, what appear to be excellent knives whose demand far outstrips their supply, and communicative employees. Unfortunately, what they don't seem to have is a plan to improve these processes with all this "crowdfunding" or "investment" in the future.

I hope for S!K's sake and for their customers/"investors" that they put one into place soon.

Exactly, it isn't just that I have a problem with the pay up front model. The bigger worry is that the pay up front model is their response to not being able to keep up with demand. The lack of any sort of sustainable plan is a huge problem. What else might they goof up in the future if they think this is a viable business plan?

 

[sharp thoughts]

They can't. No pre-orders, no cash flow.

They dug themselves into a deep hole from which there's no easy way out.

Precisely and they seem hell bent on digging that hole a little deeper.

 

[mlmcasual]

Exactly, it isn't just that I have a problem with the pay up front model. The bigger worry is that the pay up front model is their response to not being able to keep up with demand. The lack of any sort of sustainable plan is a huge problem. What else might they goof up in the future if they think this is a viable business plan?

A pay up front model where you have a stable ballpark Lead-times regardless of even long lead-times is doable for some.
BUT A pay up front model with ZERO Estimates, and Instability/runaway production per/model times is an absolute different creature altogether. SK! has been aggressively promoting for years with promises of improving the process and lead-times. For whatever reasons, increase in demand, buffer wheels warping in the summer, whatever... the (we hope to have) promotions over the years never happened and actually gotten worse. In fact, the current model, the 4.7 has been in Production since June 2015 and customers are now saying they hope to see theirs In July. So we are looking at over a year for producing ONE model. So now how does that outlook for NINE backorded models to go look? The one thing they HAVE delivered on is an excellent product.

Regarding the the defense of runaway lead-times I see "we are a young company with no production history" as if SK is a new upstart. SK! had some partnership changes but SK! has been in business and making knives at LEAST since 2012.... for at least five years. So I am not sure how much or how much longer you can invoke the young company justification for runaway lead-times. Part of me is still an Optimist on the potential.. You have good people and an amazing product so I hope it all turns around and the "Product, Process People" all become assets. I think everyone from the biggest fanboy to the biggest critic of SK! share that desire- all would like to see a great product like SK's thrive.

 

[longbeard]

As it currently stands their business model appears totally unsustainable.
I wish SURVIVE the very best in finding realistic solutions that will deliver their products to pre-paid customers in a more timely manner.

 

[Standard78]

You assume that hiring people somehow equates to inferior quality. Your grinding blanks and assembling handles, It's not rocket science by any means but teaching people costs both time and money neither of which are obviously in a great deal of supply hence the never ending crowdfunding for every single design. Hiring employees puts the onus on you to hire a qualified candidate and to train them sufficiently with enough time allowed to master the task they were hired for. If three additional people cannot equal the work of one single person then they were quite obviously not properly trained and the excuse of we can't train anyone so we just won't hire anyone and will just extend our already indefinite lead time into infinity is both laughable and unethical.

Other companies follow the same model, Bark River's Ambush line, Fiddleback Production, except that they can deliver, designed, built, and tested out of their own pocket, without the multitude of delays and the associated seemingly never ending excuses.
-----------------





There is a simple reason SK can't do a traditional business or SBA loan. It requires the loan officer to meticulously comb through your finances both personal and professional. No bank is going to make a loan to a 'Craft' company that is already 1.5-2 years in debt and still selling products that do not exist rather than closing books and making every effort to clear the backlog. I find it interesting that you have enough time to produce additional knives for monday sales rather than focus that time on the orders that were already paid for.

I find it laughable and unethical when a company that makes money on aftermarket parts, chooses to trash talk a company that supplies them with the products needed to complete their job.
Talk about a poor business practice.

 

[NetShocK]

I find it laughable and unethical when a company that makes money on aftermarket parts, chooses to trash talk a company that supplies them with the products needed to complete their job.
Talk about a poor business practice.

How does one make money on aftermarket parts for a product that doesn't exist? Or are you suggesting that Skystorm is preselling aftermarket parts for sk knives at the same rate and quantity as SK are preselling their product? Now that, my fine fellow, is indeed an interesting theory.