What is reasonable and legal?

[SURVIVE! Ellie]

Hi,

I have several 100% payment up front (pre orders) for production knives (not custom) from an established respected knife maker. This company's lead time was .. "there is no guaranteed lead time" Because this "pre order pre payment" system is only a year old there was no history to base accurate lead times. However a large increase in demand has lead to longer and longer production times and based off their performance, I am now looking at 2+ years for my pre-purchases made a year ago which is MUCH longer then I anticipated.

My question,

a- is it unusual for a knife maker to require 100% up front payment AND have 2+ years lead times?

b- I am considering asking for a refund(s). Do I have legal standing for refund(s)? Since there was no advertised lead times is there an Indefinite amount of time a knife maker can keep your money without producing a product Legally?

I have not pursued asking for a refund (yet) and have not been denied.. (and is why I am not naming the company) I am just researching this ahead of that.

Thanks..

a- We ask for payment upfront for 2 main reasons.
- One is because producing the knives is expensive. While we could produce them on our own, but as a young company it would take much longer to do so. Meanwhile we have customers banging down the doors asking to take their order. We want to make as many as possible, as quickly as possible.
- The second reason is because if we don't take payment up front it adds a ton of extra administration work later. That admin time would be taken away from actually fulfilling orders. We don't hold on to customers' credit card information because it is private information with a high risk. That means we would need to take that extra time to get a hold of people for their payment information, and then deal with the custom orders that need to be taken apart because someone changed their mind or doesn't have the money anymore. We prefer to be spending that time in the workshop actually getting the knives out.

b - I can't say what is or isn't legal. But before throwing out such an aggressive word, I wish you would have just asked us about refunds. In my mind, the legality doesn't matter because we have always provided refunds when they are requested. We aren't trying to hold anyone hostage here. With that said, any requests made in the past two weeks may still need processing. I have been out of town and haven’t had a chance to go through the entire inbox just yet.

Aside from the war of fancy words...this is supposed to be a production company, Take any other maker and say they miss their lead time by two years with nothing but excuses to offer, what do you think would happen here? Pitchfork party. Red flags are all over the place, paid in full for things that don't exist, no delivery date, delay after delay, etc.

It doesn't appear that they want to fix one of their main issues which is one person doing all the work, well technically not all, considering nearly everything about sk is outsourced. Wonder why they can't/won't hire anyone else to speed things up? I would think at the very least that is the minimum they could do for their customers who have all pre paid. Grinding and assembling are not that difficult of a job, tedious maybe, but not difficult.

We are not entirely a production company. The heavy machining is production, and that is outsourced to companies who we feel are the best in the industry. Why? Because we believe each knife should be made to a very tight tolerance and we don’t have $2mil to invest in that equipment ourselves. The finishing is custom quality, and we do all of that in house. We call ourselves a craft knife manufacturer because we make production knives, to custom quality standards. That is where the delay is, because we won’t ship out a knife that isn’t to our standard.
In the past, we did hire. There were 3 people doing the sharpening Guy does now, and they took just as much time while producing worse results. If/when we find that person who is right for the job, we will hire them and make them as happy as possible. It isn’t hard to hire people, but it is hard to find people who will care about your product even close to as much as you do.
As for just hiring someone to help with pre-paid orders… Say that speeds things up and we are able to get the preorders fulfilled within 6 months. How would you feel if you paid 6 months in advance and received a product that is inferior to what the Monday order folks are getting? In my mind, that is unethical. We promise customers our best and that is what we intend to give them. While there are a few who are upset right now, the majority of people have been quietly waiting. It would be entirely unfair to give the majority a lesser product just to appease the few who are tired of waiting.

 

[AmericanAsApple3.14]

I've read through some of these posts but not all, so hopefully I'm not commenting inappropriately. But I'm not sure what is still being debated here. Survive will - and has - refunded everyone who has asked. I've not personally asked for a refund, but I've seen several people (here and on the Survive subforum) who have asked and I've never heard of a single issue (and the refunds I've heard about were very prompt). I've been buying Survive knives direct since before the starter campaign (early 2015). Yes, there's delay and then more delay - but there's not been a single instance of ultimately failed delivery. Can anyone say otherwise? Yes, they "failed" to delivery on time, but you still got what you were promised or a refund.

It's also pretty well known that Survive partnered with Nathan (the Machinist) to supply material for the Delta 3V HT he's developed - and that they will be using this new HT for the 3V in upcoming runs. This isn't a shady group, folks. They put out a top of the line knife at a competitive price and are interested in continuous improvement/innovation. So yes you have to wait - or if you're not happy, get a refund and buy another knife (or wait till they go on regular sale or buy it off the bay or exchange). But honestly, no - I frankly don't think every other knife out there in the same range/style/category that you'll spend your refunded $ on is as good (unless you're just interested in style/looks).

Survive is 3 people. They make thousands of knives a year (I think I'm right on that figure...). 3 people. Yes, the sheaths and handles are ordered, and they farm out the rough cutting but the rest of the blade work and ultimate assembly is done in-house. I don't think that's something that should be trivialized and I dare say an accomplishment most of us (definitely including myself) cannot compete with. Should they hire more people? Should they reduce orders to better meet demand? Maybe. But they're also extremely transparent about their ideas, methods and happenings. You may not like it, but at least you're informed.

 

[Casinostocks]

If I were MLM, I'd close this thread now because it will go no where constructive beyond this point (or I'd ask a Mod to do it for me).

 

[mlmcasual]

a- We ask for payment upfront for 2 main reasons.

b - I can't say what is or isn't legal. But before throwing out such an aggressive word, I wish you would have just asked us about refunds. In my mind, the legality doesn't matter because we have always provided refunds when they are requested. We aren't trying to hold anyone hostage here. With that said, any requests made in the past two weeks may still need processing. I have been out of town and haven’t had a chance to go through the entire inbox just yet.


.

Do I have legal standing for refund(s)? Since there was no advertised lead times is there an Indefinite amount of time a knife maker can keep your money without producing a product Legally?

I apologize for any confusion
My original question as above was "Do I have legal standing for refund(s)? " meaning, is there a statute time limitation that can expire where I the buyer no longer has any standing by retail law to request a refund. I wasn't meaning to imply SK is doing anything "illegal"-- just the opposite. If My SK order is going to take 2 years (which it looks like it very well could) I want to know if I will be giving up any rights as buyer far down the road to seek a refund. Also, if there is no defined delivery time do I as buyer even have a right by retail law to EVER request a refund? These are questions about MY rights as a buyer under retail laws And that, with due respect, are questions completely irrespective of SK's policies and why I didn't ask you or on your forums it as it would be inappropriate.

Also, SK had/has no written early refund policy so I have no guarantees in writing. My only garuntee is what SK say's they are willing to do at any given moment in time and as gracious as SK is/has been, I still want to know what my consumer rights are now and two years in the future from where I put money up front.

 

[ElConquistador]

If I were MLM, I'd close this thread now because it will go no where constructive beyond this point (or I'd ask a Mod to do it for me).

People have legitimate concerns about Survive and, I think, this is the appropriate sub-forum to talk about those concerns. I say leave the thread open for people to update it as they see fit.

 

[braillediver]

I didn't ask you or on your forums

The simple fact Is- Because he would have been burned at the stake as a heretic. It's a free discussion of peoples concerns unhindered by the fanboys in the other forum.

 

[Murindo]

I do not buy from companies that follow the business model used by Survive. They create a demand by making the product difficult to get while marketing it as highly desirable. I do not see significantly different designs, materials, or quality over other makers of these types of knives. All Survive offers is the excitement of maybe getting one of their "rare" knives and thereby being able to one up someone else. Once you get it and find out that you have overpaid for what you've bought, no problem. you can flip it on a forum to people who have bought into the phenomena.

I was actually interested in their Necker 2. I saw it as an upgrade in materials over a knife I've always liked, the CRKT Bear Claw. However, after seeing how Survive never has this knife in stock and can't tell me when will be in stock, I determined I didn't want to do business with them.

 

[9Nine]

They should have closed their books long ago and focused on catching up if they can't give a reasonable lead time estimation and stick to it. Just my opinion.

 

[KELAMA]

I apologize for any confusion
My original question as above was "Do I have legal standing for refund(s)? " meaning, is there a statute time limitation that can expire where I the buyer no longer has any standing by retail law to request a refund. I wasn't meaning to imply SK is doing anything "illegal"-- just the opposite. If My SK order is going to take 2 years (which it looks like it very well could) I want to know if I will be giving up any rights as buyer far down the road to seek a refund. Also, if there is no defined delivery time do I as buyer even have a right by retail law to EVER request a refund? These are questions about MY rights as a buyer under retail laws And that, with due respect, are questions completely irrespective of SK's policies and why I didn't ask you or on your forums it as it would be inappropriate.

Also, SK had/has no written early refund policy so I have no guarantees in writing. My only garuntee is what SK say's they are willing to do at any given moment in time and as gracious as SK is/has been, I still want to know what my consumer rights are now and two years in the future from where I put money up front.

^ You don't owe any apologies!

What I find most disturbing/reprehensible: reading all these thread's here in this sub-forum, involving maker's that subscribe to this same "take your money upfront," business model! They all seem to eventually meet the same demise, leaving nothing but collateral damage in it's wake! :thumbdn:

People have legitimate concerns about Survive and, I think, this is the appropriate sub-forum to talk about those concerns. I say leave the thread open for people to update it as they see fit.

The simple fact Is- Because he would have been burned at the stake as a heretic. It's a free discussion of peoples concerns unhindered by the fanboys in the other forum.

I do not buy from companies that follow the business model used by Survive. They create a demand by making the product difficult to get while marketing it as highly desirable. I do not see significantly different designs, materials, or quality over other makers of these types of knives. All Survive offers is the excitement of maybe getting one of their "rare" knives and thereby being able to one up someone else. Once you get it and find out that you have overpaid for what you've bought, no problem. you can flip it on a forum to people who have bought into the phenomena.

Survive never has this knife in stock and can't tell me when will be in stock, I determined I didn't want to do business with them.

They should have closed their books long ago and focused on catching up if they can't give a reasonable lead time estimation and stick to it. Just my opinion.

^^^^ These! :thumbup:

 

[bghorn]

They should have closed their books long ago and focused on catching up if they can't give a reasonable lead time estimation and stick to it. Just my opinion.

They can't. No pre-orders, no cash flow.

They dug themselves into a deep hole from which there's no easy way out.

 

[Casinostocks]

I do not buy from companies that follow the business model used by Survive. They create a demand by making the product difficult to get while marketing it as highly desirable. I do not see significantly different designs, materials, or quality over other makers of these types of knives. All Survive offers is the excitement of maybe getting one of their "rare" knives and thereby being able to one up someone else. Once you get it and find out that you have overpaid for what you've bought, no problem. you can flip it on a forum to people who have bought into the phenomena.

I was actually interested in their Necker 2. I saw it as an upgrade in materials over a knife I've always liked, the CRKT Bear Claw. However, after seeing how Survive never has this knife in stock and can't tell me when will be in stock, I determined I didn't want to do business with them.

Is that so? Well, I am sure that even the OP vehemently disagrees with you, or at least he did before starting this thread:

To my knowledge however, SK is the literaly the best in the world for fit,finish and edge.. I don't think even the busses can compare to SK.. but that's me.

excerpt from: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1339830-Gso-4-7?p=16128357#post16128357

How about another from a thread titled, "Survive! Knives the most diehard fans": http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...he-most-die-hard-fans?p=16089853#post16089853

Why? Because an OCD level of perfection in fit, finish, and form.. goes into SK!

This is my GSO. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
My GSO is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.
Without me, my GSO is useless. Without my GSO, I am useless."

... Obviously a play on lines from the movie Full Metal Jacket

Murindo: you are making ridiculous statements as it seems that you do not even own or use their knives. To the OP's credit, he never bashed the knives on here while praising them elsewhere, He's rightly concerned about his prepaid orders which have taken a long while to fruition and which have also consistently missed their fulfillment mark. All legitimate and if he's so spooked and turned off, I wish that he'd simply move to get his refund, move on and close this thread to the peanut gallery.

 

[Casinostocks]

I apologize for any confusion
My original question as above was "Do I have legal standing for refund(s)? " meaning, is there a statute time limitation that can expire where I the buyer no longer has any standing by retail law to request a refund. I wasn't meaning to imply SK is doing anything "illegal"-- just the opposite. If My SK order is going to take 2 years (which it looks like it very well could) I want to know if I will be giving up any rights as buyer far down the road to seek a refund. Also, if there is no defined delivery time do I as buyer even have a right by retail law to EVER request a refund? These are questions about MY rights as a buyer under retail laws And that, with due respect, are questions completely irrespective of SK's policies and why I didn't ask you or on your forums it as it would be inappropriate.

Also, SK had/has no written early refund policy so I have no guarantees in writing. My only garuntee is what SK say's they are willing to do at any given moment in time and as gracious as SK is/has been, I still want to know what my consumer rights are now and two years in the future from where I put money up front.

AFAIK:

- if you paid by cash, check, money order: slim & none!

- if you paid by PayPal: Prior to Nov 2015 (I forgot the exact day in Nov 2015 when PP changed their claim and dispute period policies) you had 60 days to file a claim. Thereafter till now and the future till announced otherwise, you have 180 days to file a claim/dispute.

- if you paid by a debit or a credit card, your defenses rest on the policies of the card issuer, specific to their claim / dispute procedures.

it seems to me that you still wish to keep some of your preorders on the books, yet to fully know your rights as a consumer if S!K should fold and go away without any assets. If that is really a burning concern on your mind despite all the glowing praises which you had showered them with in the past, cash out now and move onto whatever else which gives you more of an instant gratification.

JMHO.

 

[ncrockclimb]

I have to say that Ellie's response is one of the more unprofessional posts I have seen from a company here. I will leave it to others to pick apart the problems with what she said, but for me it was the last straw. I have debated weighing in on this thread for a while, but after that post I can no longer keep quiet.

I have been a S!K customer and actively promoted the brand here and in other forums. Some of the threads that I started in the S!K subforum are still going, and I have more than once defended S!K in the GBU. While I still think Guy designs and assembles a very nice knife, the unprofessionalism of S!Ks posts and the constant delays have caused me to lose faith in the company's ability to be successful under the current management and business model.

The "starter program" was supposed to provide S!K with the capital needed to increase production capacity and keep knives in stock. It was supposed to be a one time fundraising effort, not an ongoing business model. However, since the "starter program" S!K has drastically increased their lead times and not substantially addressed their production issues. Knives are not in stock (with the exception of a few that are sold at irregular intervals). They are totally incapable of maintaining a production schedule and are over 6 months late on the 4.7. It now looks like some knives purchased during the starter program will take over 3 years to produce.

Folks, S!K is a house of cards that is not sustainable. It is one step away from being a Ponzi scheme. Anyone that knows anything about finance can see all the red flags. I will not try to teach a class on cashflow here, but at this point there is NO WAY I would give S!K my money. The business is not stable. I wish that it was not the case, since the product is good and Guy and Ellie seem like nice people. However, it is painfully apparent that they simply do not have the business acumen to manage this business and are destine to have issues in the future.

 

[Casinostocks]

ncrock: you made a reasonable and informative post. I agree that Ellie ought not to have made that post and should have been better thought of. I will not go into picking it apart either. The metaphor, "Ponzi scheme" is a wrong one though. I know that people casually throw it around but since Survive! is NOT an investment firm, that analogy does not apply unless you are an actual capital investor without any seat in their boardroom.

A Ponzi scheme be definition is: a form of fraud in which belief in the success of a nonexistent enterprise is fostered by the payment of quick returns to the first investors from money invested by later investors.

 

[ElConquistador]

I have to say that Ellie's response is one of the more unprofessional posts I have seen from a company here. I will leave it to others to pick apart the problems with what she said, but for me it was the last straw. I have debated weighing in on this thread for a while, but after that post I can no longer keep quiet.

Unfortunately it's typical of her responses to any criticism lately. It's the same thing we've heard for the last several months regarding the delays for the 4.7. I typed out a long reply to her post but then edited by post to avoid drama. I said the same thing though, total lack of professionalism.

To turn this around and try to say it's the customer's fault for making them take pre-orders. Or that customers are asking them to be unethical and lower their standards. Vacationing when your six months behind on a promised delivery date. No other small business owner could do what they're doing. No knife is good enough to put up with this treatment.

Survive is truly a house of cards. A six month wait for a knife is one thing but 1-3 years? A lot can happen in that time.

 

[ncrockclimb]

You make a valid point regarding the definition of "Ponzi Scheme." However, colloquially the term is regularly used to describe an insolvent or distressed organization that finances debt payment, ongoing operations and the completion of previous orders with the funds from new orders that have a future delivery date.

 

[Casinostocks]

A bit OT to the topic, but I wonder if some of you folks have watched The Profit on CNBC? For those who have not, here is a bit of a short synopsis:

Marcus Lemonis who is the show's main character is an investor, entrepreneur and philanthropist who steps in to help with the financing of ailing businesses based on their business models. He invests in those Cos which he's interested in by an immediate capital infusion in exchange for pretty hefty equity and complete control of those said businesses. He has a very simple guiding principle when he makes his involvement decision after he has had a chance to absorb their current situation and books. He always famously emphasizes on 3 P's of any business: its People, Products and Procedure. If the said businesses fail to immediately impress him with the first 2 P's, he's out of there, right there an then! To me it seems that S!K already has both a good core of people and an excellent product. However they seems to have have fallen behind and therefore lacking in the procedural component both internally and externally.

I am not saying that they need to be on a "reality" based TV show to right their ship, but to my very layman knowledge of them, perhaps they ought to look a bit outwards to see who can help them out with their procedural affairs. I am always rooting for great products which are made in America by great working American people. Am I a bit myopic, well maybe, but I'd like to think of myself as enthusiastic toward this cause. Personally speaking if I lose out my current several hundred$ in preorders, then Eff it. To me it was still worth the risk and the wait but everyone is different and should proceed according to their own tolerance levels.

 

[bghorn]

immediate capital infusion in exchange for pretty hefty equity and complete control of those said businesses.

No sane business owner would do that. Even bank loan is better alternative.

 

[AmericanAsApple3.14]

...

To turn this around and try to say it's the customer's fault for making them take pre-orders. Or that customers are asking them to be unethical and lower their standards. Vacationing when your six months behind on a promised delivery date. No other small business owner could do what they're doing. No knife is good enough to put up with this treatment.
..

You do know that the first part of the "vacation" was a funeral right? There was other things they had planned as well - like moving Guy's Grandmother across country to be with them (not sure why taking care of aging, alone relatives should be a concern!!!). Yes, I believe Ellie had some regular downtime with a friend scheduled but I'd say "vacation" - especially for Guy - is a bit of a stretch. Again, all this criticism is based on fodder provided by the company themselves. Something they did to keep people informed and certainly nothing they had to do. At least that's how I take it - others may take it as excuse making. And everyone who is concerned about what might happen (which is perfectly understandable, you never know what 6mo or a year can hold) can just not buy or get their $ back if they already did!

 

[mlmcasual]

Yes, I watch that show the profit... some great advice there like the focus on the three "P"s product, process, people..

I appreciate the struggles of small business.
I do appreciate the excellent fit/finish improvement SK has been making over the years and hope at some point the "processes" part of the three P's can be improved as well..