What is reasonable and legal?

[mlmcasual]

I find it laughable and unethical when a company that makes money on aftermarket parts, chooses to trash talk a company that supplies them with the products needed to complete their job.
Talk about a poor business practice.

Wait a minute, I feel like I missed something here.
Is there some past business relationship between SK and Skystorm, and Skystorm has an axe to grind? Well then full disclosure please indeed!
Or are you implying that because Skystorm makes custom sheathes, his industry is subservient to a (craft) knife manufacture and has no place to criticize their business practice as it would be the dog biting the masters hand that feeds it?

 

[braillediver]

I find it laughable

View Standard78s Profile \ Post Areas if you want to see laughable, unethical behavior in questioning what Skystorm posted. The fanboys are like moths to a flame in this thread.

 

[Casinostocks]

I had promised to stay out, but I just had to step in and announce that BrailleDiver has won the prize for being the BFs post count and posting area super detective. So this contest is over and the said Gent ought to claim his winning spoils which is going to be the GSO 20 special engraved edition.

On a separate note: I was on a gun forum recently and someone found out about my moniker and posting frequency here on the BFs, so I was driven out of there because I was deemed to be more of a knife FanBoy. The sheer brilliance of some people and power of deduction is simply undeniable!

 

[Skystorm]

We do not build 'parts', sorry you find facts 'trash talk' but typical of the fanboy mentality - complain about someone else to make yourself look better by comparison.

I find it laughable and unethical when a company that makes money on aftermarket parts, chooses to trash talk a company that supplies them with the products needed to complete their job.
Talk about a poor business practice.

How does one make money on aftermarket parts for a product that doesn't exist? Or are you suggesting that Skystorm is preselling aftermarket parts for sk knives at the same rate and quantity as SK are preselling their product? Now that, my fine fellow, is indeed an interesting theory.

If I was pre-selling non existent sheaths at the same rate as sk I would certainly make sure I had something nicely set up in a non extradition country when everything started going south.

 

[Skystorm]

I have no axe to grind other than the fact that when a company runs like this and then leaves all their customers holding the proverbial bag at some point it makes the entire industry, knife makers, sheath makers, suppliers etc, suffer.

I am not subservient, slave to, or rely on any single knife maker or manufacturer and never will. Everyone is free to have their own opinion about how sk runs their house of cards operation. As noted earlier by someone I tend not to sugar coat things. It doesn't take much effort to figure out the math involved. Starts with a few refunds that turn into a trickle then a flood and snowballs from there until there is no money left for anything. It has happened to many a knife maker, the GBU is full of similar threads. Bashing me isn't going to change reality.

I find it laughable and unethical when a company that makes money on aftermarket parts, chooses to trash talk a company that supplies them with the products needed to complete their job.
Talk about a poor business practice.

How does one make money on aftermarket parts for a product that doesn't exist? Or are you suggesting that Skystorm is preselling aftermarket parts for sk knives at the same rate and quantity as SK are preselling their product? Now that, my fine fellow, is indeed an interesting theory.

Wait a minute, I feel like I missed something here.
Is there some past business relationship between SK and Skystorm, and Skystorm has an axe to grind? Well then full disclosure please indeed!
Or are you implying that because Skystorm makes custom sheathes, his industry is subservient to a (craft) knife manufacture and has no place to criticize their business practice as it would be the dog biting the masters hand that feeds it?

 

[Casinostocks]

If I was pre-selling non existent sheaths at the same rate as sk I would certainly make sure I had something nicely set up in a non extradition country when everything started going south.

This tongue-in-cheek utterance you just made shows that you are not an impartial party in this argument at all and you are not merely giving some sage advice to those who are worried about their preorders. If I was a betting man, I would definitely place a strong bet on the notion that you, Patriot Leather and Survive! Knives have some underlying tensions and YOU Sir have both used and abused this thread to pile on an agenda. You claim that you have no axe to grind yet the asinine accusation which you just made points in a contrary direction! In the above you are again explicit (you are no longer implying because your statement is definitive in tone) that S!K is intentionally running a scam and fraud operation and they are purposefully separating a bunch of fools and their monies! Just FYI and I am sure that you already know, in this Country it is the constitutional right of an individual and/or a business entity to file for bankruptcy protection (President Lincoln had also used his constitutional rights in this matter) and there is not any need to have a back up plan to hide from an extradition order (again where you are implying that S!K has embarked intentionally on defrauding its patrons). I am in no way shape or form are advocating or condoning the practice but it is there and no one needs to hide or plan on going to South America because his business fails. Spare me the lecture because I believe in the whole of the Constitution, the 1st, the 2nd and so on... I am not a selective Constitutional believer!

Am I bashing on you? You decide as I don't give a hoot! Your words are not measured and this is your way of dealing with your internal beef under the guise of GBU freedom of posting.

 

[Skystorm]

Apparently sarcasm isn't your strong suit. That's all swell and well for your opinion but you might try some facts to go with your nonsense. Bankruptcy is not an automatic guaranteed get out of debt free card. The judge can toss out your case based on the perceived intent. The same way you can't just rack up all your cards and go file for protection. You might want to study the Constitution some more since it actually has nothing to do with anything here other than you bringing it up and using it to get attention for yourself.

Obviously a sk fanatic with your sig line so really your opinion is just another fanboy waving the flag around for attention.

I find it laughable and unethical when a company that makes money on aftermarket parts, chooses to trash talk a company that supplies them with the products needed to complete their job.
Talk about a poor business practice.

How does one make money on aftermarket parts for a product that doesn't exist? Or are you suggesting that Skystorm is preselling aftermarket parts for sk knives at the same rate and quantity as SK are preselling their product? Now that, my fine fellow, is indeed an interesting theory.

This tongue-in-cheek utterance you just made shows that you are not an impartial party in this argument at all and you are not merely giving some sage advice to those who are worried about their preorders. If I was a betting man, I would definitely place a strong bet on the notion that you, Patriot Leather and Survive! Knives have some underlying tensions and YOU Sir have both used and abused this thread to pile on an agenda. You claim that you have no axe to grind yet the asinine accusation which you just made points in a contrary direction! In the above you are again explicit (you are no longer implying because your statement is definitive in tone) that S!K is intentionally running a scam and fraud operation and they are purposefully separating a bunch of fools and their monies! Just FYI and I am sure that you already know, in this Country it is the constitutional right of an individual and/or a business entity to file for bankruptcy protection (President Lincoln had also used his constitutional rights in this matter) and there is not any need to have a back up plan to hide from an extradition order (again where you are implying that S!K has embarked intentionally on defrauding its patrons). I am in no way shape or form are advocating or condoning the practice but it is there and no one needs to hide or plan on going to South America because his business fails. Spare me the lecture because I believe in the whole of the Constitution, the 1st, the 2nd and so on... I am not a selective Constitutional believer!

Am I bashing on you? You decide as I don't give a hoot! Your words are not measured and this is your way of dealing with your internal beef under the guise of GBU freedom of posting.

 

[ncrockclimb]

This tongue-in-cheek utterance you just made shows that you are not an impartial party in this argument at all and you are not merely giving some sage advice to those who are worried about their preorders. If I was a betting man, I would definitely place a strong bet on the notion that you, Patriot Leather and Survive! Knives have some underlying tensions and YOU Sir have both used and abused this thread to pile on an agenda. You claim that you have no axe to grind yet the asinine accusation which you just made points in a contrary direction! In the above you are again explicit (you are no longer implying because your statement is definitive in tone) that S!K is intentionally running a scam and fraud operation and they are purposefully separating a bunch of fools and their monies! Just FYI and I am sure that you already know, in this Country it is the constitutional right of an individual and/or a business entity to file for bankruptcy protection (President Lincoln had also used his constitutional rights in this matter) and there is not any need to have a back up plan to hide from an extradition order (again where you are implying that S!K has embarked intentionally on defrauding its patrons). I am in no way shape or form are advocating or condoning the practice but it is there and no one needs to hide or plan on going to South America because his business fails. Spare me the lecture because I believe in the whole of the Constitution, the 1st, the 2nd and so on... I am not a selective Constitutional believer!

Am I bashing on you? You decide as I don't give a hoot! Your words are not measured and this is your way of dealing with your internal beef under the guise of GBU freedom of posting.

Wow. This is going downhill fast. That post was almost as bad as Ellie's.

I have no idea if Skyler and S!K have a beef. I doubt it, but I could be wrong. Everything I have read from Sklyer, and most of the other poster's here that are critical of S!K, have been relatively respectful and have been focused on the glaring holes in S!Ks business model and the dysfunctional way in which Guy and Ellie are running their company. ...and yes, they produce a good knife.

If you and the rest of the S!K fanclub think what we are saying is incorrect, explain your position. Explain how S!Ks business model is sustainable. Explain why the have not achieved most of the goals for the "starter program," now have over 3 year wait times for knives and no plan to reduce that lead time. Explain why when S!K is pushed for an explanation all they offer are excuses and nonsense (see Ellies post in this thread). Quit attacking those that dare to question the stability of S!K and explain why what we are saying is incorrect.

 

[Standard78]

How does one make money on aftermarket parts for a product that doesn't exist? Or are you suggesting that Skystorm is preselling aftermarket parts for sk knives at the same rate and quantity as SK are preselling their product? Now that, my fine fellow, is indeed an interesting theory.

Past tense. Has made money off of their product.

Wait a minute, I feel like I missed something here.
Is there some past business relationship between SK and Skystorm, and Skystorm has an axe to grind? Well then full disclosure please indeed!
Or are you implying that because Skystorm makes custom sheathes, his industry is subservient to a (craft) knife manufacture and has no place to criticize their business practice as it would be the dog biting the masters hand that feeds it?

As a business owner, you don't shit where you eat.
Potential clients may get offended or think that it's unethical.
There are a lot of diehard Survive fans that will probably think twice about spending their money on these aftermarket parts now. I know I won't be spending the $192 on a specific item that was in my cart anyone. My business will go elsewhere.

View Standard78s Profile \ Post Areas if you want to see laughable, unethical behavior in questioning what Skystorm posted. The fanboys are like moths to a flame in this thread.

What does that have to do with anything?
Was I defending Survive?
Nope.
Bye.

We do not build 'parts', sorry you find facts 'trash talk' but typical of the fanboy mentality - complain about someone else to make yourself look better by comparison.





If I was pre-selling non existent sheaths at the same rate as sk I would certainly make sure I had something nicely set up in a non extradition country when everything started going south.

It's a known fact that it is poor etiquette for companies to bash each other.
Maybe I have different morals when it comes to these kind of situations.
Last but not least... What makes anyone think I was singling anyone out?
My statement was a simple observation with absolute transparency. If people choose to have a guilty conscience, that's not my fault.

 

[Skystorm]

Hey you can't come in here with a cool head and derail a thread that's been derailed with personal attacks and start asking for logical explanations and facts! - That's a joke, for the sarcasm impaired.

I find it laughable and unethical when a company that makes money on aftermarket parts, chooses to trash talk a company that supplies them with the products needed to complete their job.
Talk about a poor business practice.

How does one make money on aftermarket parts for a product that doesn't exist? Or are you suggesting that Skystorm is preselling aftermarket parts for sk knives at the same rate and quantity as SK are preselling their product? Now that, my fine fellow, is indeed an interesting theory.

Wow. This is going downhill fast. That post was almost as bad as Ellie's.

I have no idea if Skyler and S!K have a beef. I doubt it, but I could be wrong. Everything I have read from Sklyer, and most of the other poster's here that are critical of S!K, have been relatively respectful and have been focused on the glaring holes in S!Ks business model and the dysfunctional way in which Guy and Ellie are running their company. ...and yes, they produce a good knife.

If you and the rest of the S!K fanclub think what we are saying is incorrect, explain your position. Explain how S!Ks business model is sustainable. Explain why the have not achieved most of the goals for the "starter program," now have over 3 year wait times for knives and no plan to reduce that lead time. Explain why when S!K is pushed for an explanation all they offer are excuses and nonsense (see Ellies post in this thread). Quit attacking those that dare to question the stability of S!K and explain why what we are saying is incorrect.

 

[winger51]

Just out of curiosity what is the significance of the "Survivor #'s" as noted at the bottom of some of the posts?

 

[Standard78]

To set the record straight on this fanboy crap you "men" keep spewing, yeah I'm a fan, but in no way am I defending Survive on this issue.
Do I think that their business practice is messed up at the moment?
Yep.
Do I think they're in over their heads at the moment?
Yep.
Do I think that everything will start to even out over time?
Yep.

Maybe I have more faith in them than I should, but that's my problem.

 

[ncrockclimb]

To set the record straight on this fanboy crap you "men" keep spewing, yeah I'm a fan, but in no way am I defending Survive on this issue.
Do I think that their business practice is messed up at the moment?
Yep.
Do I think they're in over their heads at the moment?
Yep.
Do I think that everything will start to even out over time?
Yep.

Maybe I have more faith in them than I should, but that's my problem.

With respect, how do you see that happening? What steps do you think they will take and what indication has S!K given that they intend to change their business model and "even out over time"?

 

[Skystorm]

How would I be making money off of products that do not exist ? Unless I start following the sk business model. Which goes like:

'For a limited time, until the next pre order, you can be one of only several thousand people to pre order and 'invest' your money up front right here for this rendering of something that doesn't exist, has no production date, has no defined delivery date and with absolutely no materials on hand to produce because I certainly can't afford to build it, and that I will personally get to building just as soon as I get to it, additionally because I am just that awesome I am giving you a special discount for 'investing' in absolutely nothing, err I mean, said non existent product(s).'

How come no one is lining up yet?????

Past tense. Has made money off of their product....

I'll happily concede the mock offended moral high ground to you bub. I'm not worried about die hard fans of sk or anything else, they are free to spend their money where and when they wish or not.

 

[Skystorm]

It denotes the level of fanboyism for Survive. The lower the number the likelier they are to blow up at anything even remotely negative uttered about Survive.

Just out of curiosity what is the significance of the "Survivor #'s" as noted at the bottom of some of the posts?

 

[Standard78]

I've been keeping up with the updates over on their thread. There's a fairly new post saying that they have the supplies for the 4.7, 2.7 and some of the stuff for the 4.1.

 

[Casinostocks]

Yes, I am aware that BK laws changed in 2005 under President George W. Bush making personal bankruptcies more challenging for individuals. The congress changed the laws mostly in the favor of the credit card companies after heavy lobbying by the credit card companies which were major contributors to President Bush's campaign in 2000. A bankruptcy trustee's job is to look after the interest of ALL the participating creditors and he/she is the defect creditor. Further, a persona who commits bankruptcy fraud by way of hiding or omitting an asset, will risk the chance of a dismissal as opposed to a discharge of his debt. Bankruptcy also does not exonerate certain debts such as taxes, spousal support, child support and judgements stemming from tort.

Skystorm, i have never denied of being a fan of Survive! Knives and again I state the fact that I own, I "flip" (that term is intentionally put in there to cause heartburn in some), I trade, I preorder my desired S!K collection at my own sole decision and pleasure. It is none of anyone's darn business and I do as I please to do. I can afford it as i can afford any potential losses. So what?!

Quit while you are behind Leatherman! (sarcasm )

 

[Casinostocks]

Just out of curiosity what is the significance of the "Survivor #'s" as noted at the bottom of some of the posts?

It's just for fun. Some of us are having fun with it like some people call themselves Beckerheads with Beckers and so forth with some other brands (BUSSE, etc). Fun and pride of ownership in the nerdiest ways!

 

[Standard78]

How would I be making money off of products that do not exist ? Unless I start following the sk business model. Which goes like:

'For a limited time, until the next pre order, you can be one of only several thousand people to pre order and 'invest' your money up front right here for this rendering of something that doesn't exist, has no production date, has no defined delivery date and with absolutely no materials on hand to produce because I certainly can't afford to build it, and that I will personally get to building just as soon as I get to it, additionally because I am just that awesome I am giving you a special discount for 'investing' in absolutely nothing, err I mean, said non existent product(s).'

How come no one is lining up yet?????





I'll happily concede the mock offended moral high ground to you bub. I'm not worried about die hard fans of sk or anything else, they are free to spend their money where and when they wish or not.

Did I say I was talking about the new models?
Nope.
I'm glad that you're not worried about getting money from S!K customers in the future. One thing you might want to think about is the fact that these "fans" also own multiple knives from other companies.
Do you think they'll be buying "parts" from you for those other knives now?
I doubt it.

Complete anonymity is typically the best way to run a business.

 

[trevitrace]

Did I say I was talking about the new models?
Nope.
I'm glad that you're not worried about getting money from S!K customers in the future. One thing you might want to think about is the fact that these "fans" also own multiple knives from other companies.
Do you think they'll be buying "parts" from you for those other knives now?
I doubt it.

Complete anonymity is typically the best way to run a business.

I think I'd be more inclined to purchase from Skystorm. I've seen plenty of pictures of his work, and while they're just pictures they look very well made.

Add to this his attitude toward other businesses that are run less than optimally (speaking to efficiency) as well as wildly underestimating how long for a particular product to get ready.

From this I'd think that if I were to order one of his sheaths and was told it'd be ready in 4 weeks, it'd more likely be done in 3, then I'd have to pay for it.

I've got no other reason than a overall feeling, seems reasonable enough to me though.