When it's not exactly Made in the USA - Hoback

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NG VI said:
I also find irrelevant religious branding to be even more distasteful than wrapping yourself in the flag. It is often hypocritical and in opposition to key principles of Christianity, and regardless it's a giant red flag that there's a con man in the room.
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I was trying to think of a nice way of conveying this exact sentiment when I first posted in this thread, but it kept coming off as too mean and dismissive of people's beliefs, so I didn't say it. I think you managed to sum it all up really well. Sadly, this seems to be the case all too often, and was why I was wary of Hoback in the first place. After seeing how he actually acts, I'm glad I never bought anything of his.
 
Paratrooper06 said:
AWT uses it and makes a fine product. Maybe we can discuss the bad business practices instead of taking jabs at people for what their faith is.
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Nobody is taking jabs at anyone for their faith, just their hypocrisy in flouting it as a part of their business, specifically in their marketing.

What kind of insane hubris does it take to actually put in print 'my company represents God' as the opening statement of what is effectively a confession and apology for misleading buyers and distributors in their business practices? We've got nothing to say about his faith, except that he's using it in a way that directly contradicts the teachings of its founder and it's gross. And that it doesn't seem like a great time to go waving his Bible around, he has a real-world problem to address and it has nothing to do with his religion, only his apparent bad faith in business.
 
NG VI said:
Nobody is taking jabs at anyone for their faith, just their hypocrisy in flouting it as a part of their business, specifically in their marketing.

What kind of insane hubris does it take to actually put in print 'my company represents God' as the opening statement of what is effectively a confession and apology for misleading buyers and distributors in their business practices? We've got nothing to say about his faith, except that he's using it in a way that directly contradicts the teachings of its founder and it's gross. And that it doesn't seem like a great time to go waving his Bible around, he has a real-world problem to address and it has nothing to do with his religion, only his apparent bad faith in business.
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The response I quoted was a broadbrush religious insult, not one tailored to Hoback. Don’t pretend it was.
 
Paratrooper06 said:
I think if people think “made in USA” means 100% all parts made in USA, they’re going to have a bad time.

The FTC requires only “more than 50%” for companies to make the claim. If in fact every single part was USA made, people would be complaining about the cost instead.

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As long as they complied with the FTC rules, what are you complaining about? The only way to buy 100% made in usa would be to buy custom knives. And even then, you'd only be reasonably sure. Do you hover over your knife maker to make sure that he's using only USA sourced steel? And if he uses a truck spring to make a knife, how do you know if that truck spring wasn't made in Canada or Mexico? There are a handful of production companies that make their knives in USA. Some specify when they use German or other foreign steel. I much prefer it when they offer specifics on the steel and country of origin of their steel sourcing. But I can't say that Hoback did anything wrong or unethical.
 
deadzonepatrol said:
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As long as they complied with the FTC rules, what are you complaining about? The only way to buy 100% made in usa would be to buy custom knives. And even then, you'd only be reasonably sure. Do you hover over your knife maker to make sure that he's using only USA sourced steel? And if he uses a truck spring to make a knife, how do you know if that truck spring wasn't made in Canada or Mexico? There are a handful of production companies that make their knives in USA. Some specify when they use German or other foreign steel. I much prefer it when they offer specifics on the steel and country of origin of their steel sourcing. But I can't say that Hoback did anything wrong or unethical.
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I think Hoback had a chance for some good PR to come out of this had they taken a different approach. But that attitude Jake displayed in an email to a member probably got many riled up and ready to fight. Jake is about to find out the hard way that you can be “happy” (sell many knives to satisfied customers after clearing up an issue).. or you can be “right” (mouth off in passive-aggressive fashion to a customer).

A little bit of courtesy and politeness goes a long way in business.
 
Paratrooper06 said:
The response I quoted was a broadbrush religious insult, not one tailored to Hoback. Don’t pretend it was.
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It's a 'broadbrush religious insult' to comment on people flaunting the Bible and Jesus to avoid criticism and rationalize deceptive business practices?

Please try to read all of those posts again man, you're not picking up what's being put down.
 
NG VI said:
It's a 'broadbrush religious insult' to comment on people flaunting the Bible and Jesus to avoid criticism and rationalize deceptive business practices?

Please try to read all of those posts again man, you're not picking up what's being put down.
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Agree to disagree on that, but perhaps we can just leave religion out of this topic entirely. This is a discussion on country of origin and the label “made in USA”, not “religion as it relates to business ethics”.
 
I’ve known for some time that the large quantity of knives coming from Hoback could not possibly be all made in his meager shop in Idaho.
 
deadzonepatrol said:
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As long as they complied with the FTC rules, what are you complaining about? The only way to buy 100% made in usa would be to buy custom knives. And even then, you'd only be reasonably sure. Do you hover over your knife maker to make sure that he's using only USA sourced steel? And if he uses a truck spring to make a knife, how do you know if that truck spring wasn't made in Canada or Mexico? There are a handful of production companies that make their knives in USA. Some specify when they use German or other foreign steel. I much prefer it when they offer specifics on the steel and country of origin of their steel sourcing. But I can't say that Hoback did anything wrong or unethical.
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At this point who knows if Hoback is following FTC rules? For all anyone knows, none of his materials come from the USA. He has failed in the open and honest disclosure aspect of where his materials come from.
 
As a old friend of mine used to say, "some people just need to get out more". What rock have some been living under to not know that many components of ANY product are sourced from other companies, from other countries, and even unknown sources? When has this become a new issue?

Don't know Hoback, don't care about Hoback, and his responses posted here seem to be a calculated, well rehearsed pile or manure. THAT gets me, not where his parts and pieces are made, where certain individual parts are made (hey... we are the rolling tide of social media and we have a right to know everything... don't make us cancel you!) or how many jobs he has created or support.

Doubtful any knife manufacturers could withstand the magnifying glass of scrutiny to tell the BF group where their G10 is made, where their FRN pellets come from, where their springs and screws are made, where their bearings are made, where pocket clips are made, where their packaging is made, where the sandpaper/polish/grinding consumables are made and on and on. Especially the big brands that have major parts of their product lines (Buck, Kershaw, Spyderco for example) actually made offshore.

As a contractor, this whole battle was fought (either American made or nothing) happened on the tool front. Started with small hand tools, went to medium sized hand tools, then a few stationery tools, and now almost all tools are made offshore or with a predominance of parts made offshore. Go to your big box store and look at some of the DeWalt boxing; it has a large American flag printed on the box, and some of those boxes say "proudly made in the USA" and in small print "using components made in other countries" and language like that. In fact, (a quick Google search should find it) DeWalt has joined the trend of assembly in the USA by build a plant dedicated to making the fastest selling tools in the big box stores right here in the USA... using parts from who knows where. At least they are creating jobs in America, I will give them that, but the boxes need to say as they used to, "ASSEMBLED in the USA from domestic and foreign parts". I know of NO tool companies, regardless of COO, that only use parts and pieces from their own country.

I am sure no impact will come to the afore mentioned knife maker since he has the information on his website. Just because he doesn't wear his disclaimer around on his shirt sleeves doesn't make him dishonest. Would serve him better here, but doubtful this little community has much impact on his sales, especially when he can easily point out the lack of due diligence before buying (and wait... how many here complaining about him actually own one or more of his knives and are emotionally damaged by his lack of clarity?) and not only that, it could be construed that no research was done at all before buying. Hard to feel sorry for anyone when the writing was literally on the website but they were "duped" because they didn't take the time to read it.
 
ToddM said:
I have a love hate relationship with the Kwaiback, had two of them sold them both after awhile. First time I saw one I had to have it, bought it, loved everything about it except the sharpened pry bar blade. Sold it, few years later saw the Frag version, bought another one, but same issue (no one to blame but myself here!) and it sat around and I sold it. I get that tacticool sharpened pry bars sell, but I think he'd sell a lot more if he made a thinner/lighter version with a blade thickness/profile that was actually good for something other than prying open car doors. That said it's his business, his work, and he can make whatever he wants :) Of the few I've handled the fit/finish/quality was top notch, no complaints and I'm very picky, I've been disappoint in products from many makers at similar price points, and I've been around here a lot longer than most to see many knife companies/makers come and go.

While it is true that even "made in the USA" isn't 100% made in the USA I'd still rather support those products than others that can't even meet that threshold when possible. To me his stance on where it's made translates to: "It's made lots of places, and we're not going to tell you where exactly because you wouldn't like it". Direct from their website: "We also intend to take greater advantage of the global economy to source and/or manufacture many of our parts and products – in countries like Japan, Hong Kong , Finland, China, Italy, Mexico, Russia, Europe, and Canada."

I end up torn on it, I understand we end up having to buy a lot of things from China, and Russia is an easy source of Titanium, it keeps prices low (and more important to companies keeps profits high) and the poor people making those products are probably good people that don't wish anyone harm, but at the end of the day there's no denying that Russia and China are our enemies, and their governments would like nothing more than to see us burn. If I have to buy a TV, microwave, cell phone, etc. I accept I can't buy made in the USA, but for a luxury item where I have a choice where it's made, like a high $ knife, I can at least try not to financially support the governments of our enemies, or support them as little as possible.
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A quick sidebar: Is that seriously why those tactifool knives from Burger-Strider are shaped like that? To open up car doors, to be able to?
 
midnight flyer said:
As a old friend of mine used to say, "some people just need to get out more". What rock have some been living under to not know that many components of ANY product are sourced from other companies, from other countries, and even unknown sources? When has this become a new issue?

Don't know Hoback, don't care about Hoback, and his responses posted here seem to be a calculated, well rehearsed pile or manure. THAT gets me, not where his parts and pieces are made, where certain individual parts are made (hey... we are the rolling tide of social media and we have a right to know everything... don't make us cancel you!) or how many jobs he has created or support.

Doubtful any knife manufacturers could withstand the magnifying glass of scrutiny to tell the BF group where their G10 is made, where their FRN pellets come from, where their springs and screws are made, where their bearings are made, where pocket clips are made, where their packaging is made, where the sandpaper/polish/grinding consumables are made and on and on. Especially the big brands that have major parts of their product lines (Buck, Kershaw, Spyderco for example) actually made offshore.

As a contractor, this whole battle was fought (either American made or nothing) happened on the tool front. Started with small hand tools, went to medium sized hand tools, then a few stationery tools, and now almost all tools are made offshore or with a predominance of parts made offshore. Go to your big box store and look at some of the DeWalt boxing; it has a large American flag printed on the box, and some of those boxes say "proudly made in the USA" and in small print "using components made in other countries" and language like that. In fact, (a quick Google search should find it) DeWalt has joined the trend of assembly in the USA by build a plant dedicated to making the fastest selling tools in the big box stores right here in the USA... using parts from who knows where. At least they are creating jobs in America, I will give them that, but the boxes need to say as they used to, "ASSEMBLED in the USA from domestic and foreign parts". I know of NO tool companies, regardless of COO, that only use parts and pieces from their own country.

I am sure no impact will come to the afore mentioned knife maker since he has the information on his website. Just because he doesn't wear his disclaimer around on his shirt sleeves doesn't make him dishonest. Would serve him better here, but doubtful this little community has much impact on his sales, especially when he can easily point out the lack of due diligence before buying (and wait... how many here complaining about him actually own one or more of his knives and are emotionally damaged by his lack of clarity?) and not only that, it could be construed that no research was done at all before buying. Hard to feel sorry for anyone when the writing was literally on the website but they were "duped" because they didn't take the time to read it.
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I'll try not to re-tread too much, but the information about being made here and there and everywhere on his website now was not there previously, thats a recent addition. You can verify this with the cached versions on archive.org

People are not taking issue with the idea of foreign made/sourced knife components or even knives - thats just a fact of manufacturing. The issue is the deceptive marketing and lies of omission. Being honest about where your product is coming from matters to people - especially people like us who are representing and building his brand.
 
midnight flyer said:
As a old friend of mine used to say, "some people just need to get out more". What rock have some been living under to not know that many components of ANY product are sourced from other companies, from other countries, and even unknown sources? When has this become a new issue?

Don't know Hoback, don't care about Hoback, and his responses posted here seem to be a calculated, well rehearsed pile or manure. THAT gets me, not where his parts and pieces are made, where certain individual parts are made (hey... we are the rolling tide of social media and we have a right to know everything... don't make us cancel you!) or how many jobs he has created or support.

Doubtful any knife manufacturers could withstand the magnifying glass of scrutiny to tell the BF group where their G10 is made, where their FRN pellets come from, where their springs and screws are made, where their bearings are made, where pocket clips are made, where their packaging is made, where the sandpaper/polish/grinding consumables are made and on and on. Especially the big brands that have major parts of their product lines (Buck, Kershaw, Spyderco for example) actually made offshore.

As a contractor, this whole battle was fought (either American made or nothing) happened on the tool front. Started with small hand tools, went to medium sized hand tools, then a few stationery tools, and now almost all tools are made offshore or with a predominance of parts made offshore. Go to your big box store and look at some of the DeWalt boxing; it has a large American flag printed on the box, and some of those boxes say "proudly made in the USA" and in small print "using components made in other countries" and language like that. In fact, (a quick Google search should find it) DeWalt has joined the trend of assembly in the USA by build a plant dedicated to making the fastest selling tools in the big box stores right here in the USA... using parts from who knows where. At least they are creating jobs in America, I will give them that, but the boxes need to say as they used to, "ASSEMBLED in the USA from domestic and foreign parts". I know of NO tool companies, regardless of COO, that only use parts and pieces from their own country.

I am sure no impact will come to the afore mentioned knife maker since he has the information on his website. Just because he doesn't wear his disclaimer around on his shirt sleeves doesn't make him dishonest. Would serve him better here, but doubtful this little community has much impact on his sales, especially when he can easily point out the lack of due diligence before buying (and wait... how many here complaining about him actually own one or more of his knives and are emotionally damaged by his lack of clarity?) and not only that, it could be construed that no research was done at all before buying. Hard to feel sorry for anyone when the writing was literally on the website but they were "duped" because they didn't take the time to read it.
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I was about to start a thread asking this just yesterday, to think about it for a few, realize that screws, G-10, may not be able to be verified of origin, and I may not like the answer. But isn't Spyderco sort of the DeWalt of the knife world? (I am sorry if that is way off, am a beginner tool guy). Has to be some people doing it, at least out of passion, the way that we all have it idealized in our heads.

"I hope you're wrong nowww.....BUT I DON'T THINK SOOOO"
 
When I paid $650+ for my Kwaiback 4+ years ago I would’ve never imagined this knife would be made anywhere but here in the USA. There is no chance in hell I would’ve ever paid that kind of money knowingly if I thought this knife was made anywhere but HERE in the USA. Looking at my knife and knowing that this whole thing was possibly made in China disappoints be beyond belief because his customer base including his dealers for years have been led to believe it was Made in USA and he not once bothered correcting that belief because it served him well. Not very Christian like or ethical in business practice. Smh so disappointed.

In my posts on my Instagram and even here on Bladeforums I always sported the made in 🇺🇸 with pride with these knives and now years later after doing so it’s a tough pill to swallow to realize it’s not USA MADE.

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coolbreezy37 said:
They did the same thing with Springfield 1911 pistols. Raw forgings were sent to Springfield Armory in Genoseo, IL from IMBEL in Brazil. However, IMBEL makes quality stuff. More than 50% of the work was finished in Illinois, hence the “Made is USA” claim. Great 1911, though.
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This used to be the case. Springfield now forges and makes 100% of their 1911 frames in USA.

In regards to Hoback, anyone that leads with "Im a Christian/God Lover" raises red flags in my book.
 
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deadzonepatrol said:
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As long as they complied with the FTC rules, what are you complaining about? The only way to buy 100% made in usa would be to buy custom knives. And even then, you'd only be reasonably sure. Do you hover over your knife maker to make sure that he's using only USA sourced steel? And if he uses a truck spring to make a knife, how do you know if that truck spring wasn't made in Canada or Mexico? There are a handful of production companies that make their knives in USA. Some specify when they use German or other foreign steel. I much prefer it when they offer specifics on the steel and country of origin of their steel sourcing. But I can't say that Hoback did anything wrong or unethical.
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Wow. What are we complaining about? Good grief. Never fails, this is why craptastic companies still succeed. People just like this guy.
 
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