When it's not exactly Made in the USA - Hoback

[Quiet]

Nope, I've said from day 1 that they both have some responsibility for the situation. The dealers created the situation when they assumed COO instead of actually checking. Hoback prolonged it and made it so much worse by not doing enough to set the record straight.

They "created" a situation that could have been solved in one day (1!!!) several years ago when Jake Hoback found out about it. In fact, you have not once answered in this entire thread to that. Jake could have called, emailed, hell, or even visited a dealer to set them straight in all the years he's been selling knives. He didn't, because it made him money. You are the only person in this thread who refuses to understand that, because it destroys your entire position. Jake is complicit, and his deception has been proven. This whole situation is on him, and I look forward to hearing about his new business venture wherein he's out of the Knife game entirely. Jake's a liar, and it's been proven.

Also? I'm enjoying how you're starting to use language like the above bold, whereas forty pages ago, you were adamant that Jake was completely innocent and this was on the evil dealers. "But, but, no, I ALWAYS said Jake was the bad guy!" In no court of law would anything you've said stand up. I'm not even a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. You'd present your whole schpiel about the dealers, and then it would get destroyed in cross-examination when the other guy just asked "So, did Jake ever call to set you straight?"

(the sounds of crickets ensues)

 

[Danke42]

WHOOP WHOOP GOAL POSTS MOVEMENT ALERT.

So, now it's still not Jake's fault, because he wasn't speaking to a dealer? Also, please stop with your repeated attempts to dismiss a video in which Jake lies to a potential customer. It's getting embarrassing. The customer's question, and Jake's response is clear as day if you're wearing headphones.

I always like this part of these threads. Someone gets caught red handed with 2 hands in the cookie jar and the defense leaps into action. "How do you even know if that was his voice? There could have been a ventriloquist there", or "How do you know I wasn't just refilling the jar with some cookies I just baked" or "Hasn't everyone started at least one shady company in their life to defraud the public; how can you all cast stones now".

The narrower the corner the person they're championing the more ridiculous their 3rd party explanations become.

I do tend to use hyperbole to underline this but I want to be absolutely clear any comments are not a personal attack. They are just a brighter light shone on faulty thinking being used to diminish the harm someone like Jake has done. Just to be clear for shinyedges what my motives are

Both the Bible and the Stars and Stripes are very powerful symbols and to many people they're the cornerstone of their belief system. When someone co-opts those two things to make a profit of while not living up to those ideals it tarnishes them and insults anyone else who believes in them. The only person in this thread that I'm throwing shade at is Jake, His past actions that have been revealed and his current response to that show his true colours. I don't live in the US but I still respect their flag and those living under it.

 

[Quiet]

Literally at least one other person in this thread responded to the video the same way I did. It's a partial conversation, not on camera, missing context. It would never hold up in court.

Context that would easily be explained, given that there's a table of Jake Hoback's knives in the video. "Well, well ya see, Yer Honor, Jake was actually referring to a shirt that he was wearing that he had done by a local American business, therefore he couldn't possibly have been lying...."

 

[shinyedges]

I always like this part of these threads. Someone gets caught red handed with 2 hands in the cookie jar and the defense leaps into action. "How do you even know if that was his voice? There could have been a ventriloquist there", or "How do you know I wasn't just refilling the jar with some cookies I just baked" or "Hasn't everyone started at least one shady company in thier life to defraud the publc; how can you all cast stones now".

The narrower the corner the person they're championing the more ridiculous their 3rd party explanations become.

I do tend to use hyperbole to underline this but I want to be absolutely clear any comments are not a personal attack. They are just a brighter light shone on faulty thinking being used to diminish the harm someone like Jake has done. Just to be clear for shinyedges what my motives are

Both the Bible and the US are very powerful symbols and to many people they're the cornderstone of their belief system. When someone co-opts those two things to make a profit of while not living up to those ideals it tarnishes them and insults anyone else who believes in them. The only person in this thread that I'm throwing shade at is Jake, His past actions that have been revealed and his current response to that show his true colours. I don't live in the US but I still respect their flag and those living under it.

Understood. Just trying to be abundantly cautious so it stays open. I of course agree with you.

 

[EngrSorenson]

I agree with most of that. Except all 28 dealers didn't mislabel the COO. I looked at a random sampling and about half the ones I checked didn't list any COO, just like Hoback's website. And I'm not giving the dealers 0% liability, because THEY actually started all of this by listing the wrong COO information. But certainly Hoback deserves the lion's share of the blame for letting it go on so long.

What is the burden the dealer must carry in order to certify country of origin? 100% accuracy? tracible documentation? hiring a private eye?
When the best thing you can say is that "the dealers should have known that they technically don't know that", the failure is somewhere else.
You have products from a company that you're aware are legitimately "MIA", you can read some blurbs which say stuff can come from elsewhere.
I can't say for sure, but I'd guess that the average person would have a reasonable expectation of believing all of Hoback's knives met the "Made in USA" criteria based on the available information.

 

[toker]

And no dealer has claimed that he told them his knives were 100% USA made. But if you insist on believing something with no evidence to back it up, then that's what you're going to do (over and over and over again).

I would think it came up in a conversation at least one with a company called USA Made Blade. If it didn't, I would think Hoback would be the one that should have said something.

 

[Quiet]

Also, can we stop with the "The video isn't clear" nonsense....are you serious? Countless people all over the internet have heard it, and were clearly able to hear the question and answer. Not to mention, if this was a court of law, that video's audio would be completely cleaned up, and THAT would be entered as evidence, simple as that (something that someone who's a lawyer should know).

 

[Blues]

Literally at least one other person in this thread responded to the video the same way I did. It's a partial conversation, not on camera, missing context. It would never hold up in court.

You attempted to discern what the dealer he supposedly named was, and even went so far as to make a guess at the name of the dealer. Obviously he didn't name ANY dealer so you ended up with a goose egg on that.

But you can't discern what is being said when someone asked did you make everything here?

The bias in favor of hoback couldn't be any clearer. The rest of us attempted to discern what was said in both clips and almost unanimously agree.

I agree with 3D Anvil that even if the tape is cleaned up so that the statement in question was clear enough for a jury to hear, it would still need to be determined exactly what was being referred to specifically. A knife? A particular pattern or series?

The defense can argue that it is without context and impossible to determine just what is being referred to.

The prosecution might argue that it may be insufficient on its own as proof of guilt, but that it is just another piece of evidence which goes toward establishing a preponderance of the evidence that he is.

Haranguing 3D Anvil is unlikely to sway him from this point...and frankly, if he were representing me, I'd expect him to cede ground only when there was no point in contesting it.

Until further information or evidence is disclosed, beyond the self-directed actions of the accused, (who is doing a bang-up job of making himself look bad all on his own), we are just going around in circles biting one another's ankles.

 

[Quiet]

I agree with 3D Anvil that even if the tape is cleaned up so that the statement in question was clear enough for a jury to hear, it would still need to be determined exactly what was being referred to specifically. A knife? A particular pattern or series?

The defense can argue that it is without context and impossible to determine just what is being referred to.

The prosecution might argue that it may be insufficient on its own as proof of guilt, but that it is just another piece of evidence which goes toward establishing a preponderance of the evidence that he is.

Haranguing 3D Anvil is unlikely to sway him from this point...and frankly, if he were representing me, I'd expect him to cede ground only when there was no point in contesting it.

Until further information or evidence, beyond the self-directed actions of the accused, (who is doing a bang-up job of making himself look bad all on his own), we are just going around in circles biting one another's ankles.

That's entirely fair. I believe him when he stated that he was trying to fight against "disinformation" a page or two back. I just think he works for Hoback and is thus trying to cast doubts as much as he can. Too bad for him, I'm already seeing references to this thread elsewhere on social media. Unfortunately, for him and his heavy attempts at obfuscation, all of the bits of this tale add up to one outcome for those who are able to put those pieces of evidence together. Not to mention, we have Insipid Moniker to thank, because this went from deception, to possible outright illegal activity on Hoback's part.

 

[shinyedges]

I agree with 3D Anvil that even if the tape is cleaned up so that the statement in question was clear enough for a jury to hear, it would still need to be determined exactly what was being referred to specifically.

The defense can argue that it is without context and impossible to determine just what is being referred to.

The prosecution might argue that it may be insufficient on its own as proof of guilt, but that it is just another piece of evidence which goes toward establishing a preponderance of the evidence that he is.

Haranguing 3D Anvil is unlikely to sway him from this point...and frankly, if he were representing me, I'd expect him to cede ground only when there was no point in contesting it.

Until further information or evidence, beyond the self-directed actions of the accused, (who is doing a bang-up job of making himself look bad all on his own), we are just going around in circles biting one another's ankles.

I understand, the only issue is this isn't a court case. This is a thread on a knife forum where regular guys and gals are looking at the situation. Anvils repeated denial of any and everything, not just that video is telling. He won't address if he believes customs missed the labels not being on the knives for years, but will argue to the bitter end Jake hoback didn't lie to the dealers, despite the fact he has no more inside knowledge than anyone else. I agree we are going in circles.

ETA: I don't know why we are acting like this is a court case. Lol

 

[jbmonkey]

There are some Buck knives that are made in China, right? I have several Buck knives that are marked "China". Cat. 12622 "2 Blade Doctor Knife" is the one I can put my hand on at the moment. I love Buck knives, they plainly label what is USA Made and what is not to the best of my knowledge.

yes. they make some fully in China. Buck labels them as imports or China on the knife. some though are mixed bags like the bantams. the bantams from my understanding is blade made in America. heat treat done here in America. handle made in China. assembled here in America. so its basically mostly America, but not fully. make sens

 

[Blues]

I understand, the only issue is this isn't a court case. This is a thread on a knife forum where regular guys and gals are looking at the situation. Anvils repeated denial of any and everything, not just that video is telling. He won't address if he believes customs missed the labels not being on the knives for years, but will argue to the bitter end Jake hoback didn't lie to the dealers, despite the fact he has no more inside knowledge than anyone else. I agree we are going in circles.

ETA: I don't know why we are acting like this is a court case. Lol

3D Anvil is conditioned by his years in the courtroom to look at information and evidence in a certain light, especially if and when he is defending a client, or playing the devil's advocate. Just as I am conditioned to search for the truth and make a determination as to whether or not prosecution is warranted.

That said, while I completely agree that this is not a courtroom and is simply a thread on the web...justice can still be obtained by the information getting "out there" which, when it does, will allow "the market" to decide the fate of both Hoback and his company.

And that may be the best remedy of all. (As regards, Hoback.) How to make the dealers and end users whose purchases are of a lesser value based upon the failure to disclose the truth of their origin and manufacture...that remains to be seen. I hope a remedy is forthcoming...but I have no way of predicting it.

 

[craytab]

Yeah, not really caring about that video because it's not clear and he doesn't appear to be talking to a dealer.

You don't get to dismiss evidence you don't like.

 

[craytab]

How many times do I have to say that I don't give him the benefit of the doubt?

You can say it as many times as you want but until you stop doing it, you'll get called on it every time. That goes for all the defending of him going on here.

 

[Knives&Lint]

To me there are just two underlying issues here that are the base of the disagreement with what is pretty much the way all of us see it and two (now one???) members.

First, is he a liar? The way I see it, a liar is one who engages in deceit. Deceit is defined as "the act of causing someone to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid". I'd say it's safe to say that in most of our eyes that it would be deceitful to try to sell your non-USA made knives through a company called...idunno ...USA MADE BLADE!

The second issue of disagreement here is responsibility. In most of our eyes, it is absolutely the duty of a leader of his own company to take 100% responsibility (not fault, not blame, those are irrelevant...RESPONSIBILITY) for what goes on under his leadership. The term is "The buck stops here!", not "The buck stops...errr....uh...I apologize that I didn't do more to correct the dealer's mistakes."

 

[3D Anvil]

You don't get to dismiss evidence you don't like.

But I do get to dismiss evidence that sucks as evidence.

 

[Blues]

But I do get to dismiss evidence that sucks as evidence.

I got a chuckle out of that one. (Even outside of the courtroom, where the rules of evidence would apply, that's pretty funny.)

 

[3D Anvil]

To me there are just two underlying issues here that are the base of the disagreement with what is pretty much the way all of us see it and two (now one???) members.

First, is he a liar? The way I see it, a liar is one who engages in deceit. Deceit is defined as "the act of causing someone to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid". I'd say it's safe to say that in most of our eyes that it would be deceitful to try to sell your non-USA made knives through a company called...idunno ...USA MADE BLADE!

The second issue of disagreement here is responsibility. In most of our eyes, it is absolutely the duty of a leader of his own company to take 100% responsibility (not fault, not blame, those are irrelevant...RESPONSIBILITY) for what goes on under his leadership. The term is "The buck stops here!", not "The buck stops...errr....uh...I apologize that I didn't do more to correct the dealer's mistakes."

I think the only thing we disagree about is whether the dealers bear any responsibility at all. In my opinion, Hoback had a responsibility to set the record straight immediately. He admits that. But I also think dealers have a responsibility to post accurate product descriptions. Most of y'all don't seem to think that's the case.

 

[King of the Cheese]

To me there are just two underlying issues here that are the base of the disagreement with what is pretty much the way all of us see it and two (now one???) members.

First, is he a liar? The way I see it, a liar is one who engages in deceit. Deceit is defined as "the act of causing someone to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid". I'd say it's safe to say that in most of our eyes that it would be deceitful to try to sell your non-USA made knives through a company called...idunno ...USA MADE BLADE!

Two standards here. Did he intentionally deceive customers? Probably. As far as the distributors go, it’s “guilty”. Legally? Not going to comment on that anymore but I will say that “I don’t recall” seems to be the magic phrase on that front. If this goes to court, he’s finished. It’s in his best interest to keep that from happening. If he doesn’t, he can kiss knife-making (or outsourcing) goodbye.

The second issue of disagreement here is responsibility. In most of our eyes, it is absolutely the duty of a leader of his own company to take 100% responsibility (not fault, not blame, those are irrelevant...RESPONSIBILITY) for what goes on under his leadership. The term is "The buck stops here!", not "The buck stops...errr....uh...I apologize that I didn't do more to correct the dealer's mistakes."

The way I see it is distributors have a lot of upkeep to manage. Sure, maybe they put a filler COO in based on presumptions that all things “Hoback” are red white and blue. The lion’s share of tracking upkeep on COO at dealers is on Hoback. He should consider it a personal insult if the wrong info is published about one of HIS knives.

 

[craytab]

I agree with 3D Anvil that even if the tape is cleaned up so that the statement in question was clear enough for a jury to hear, it would still need to be determined exactly what was being referred to specifically. A knife? A particular pattern or series?

The defense can argue that it is without context and impossible to determine just what is being referred to.

The prosecution might argue that it may be insufficient on its own as proof of guilt, but that it is just another piece of evidence which goes toward establishing a preponderance of the evidence that he is.

Haranguing 3D Anvil is unlikely to sway him from this point...and frankly, if he were representing me, I'd expect him to cede ground only when there was no point in contesting it.

Until further information or evidence is disclosed, beyond the self-directed actions of the accused, (who is doing a bang-up job of making himself look bad all on his own), we are just going around in circles biting one another's ankles.

Yup. And since this is the court of public opinion, looks like that bit of tape is going into the "against" evidence basket for jake. We the jury get to decide if it is valid, not the defense.