When it's not exactly Made in the USA - Hoback

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craytab said:
Yup. And since this is the court of public opinion, looks like that bit of tape is going into the "against" evidence basket for jake. We the jury get to decide if it is valid, not the defense.
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Well, everyone gets a say...whether it's simply opinion or voting with their wallets.
 
3D Anvil said:
I think the only thing we disagree about is whether the dealers bear any responsibility at all. In my opinion, Hoback had a responsibility to set the record straight immediately. He admits that. But I also think dealers have a responsibility to post accurate product descriptions. Most of y'all don't seem to think that's the case.
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I absolutely agree that the dealers have their own responsibility to post accurate descriptions. I just think that his stance should be that this is 100% on himself, not deferring it as a misunderstanding by the dealers. The way I see it, not only should he have set the record straight immediately, he should have made it a priority to not rest until the record was set straight.
 
3D Anvil said:
I think the only thing we disagree about is whether the dealers bear any responsibility at all. In my opinion, Hoback had a responsibility to set the record straight immediately. He admits that. But I also think dealers have a responsibility to post accurate product descriptions. Most of y'all don't seem to think that's the case.
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I would definitely hold the dealer's feet to the fire if they misrepresented the goods (intentionally), but I'm not convinced that they weren't steered into believing that the goods were made in the USA to begin with.

How do you know they weren't misled? And, what degree of due diligence is required on their part? Do they need to contact importers if they had no reason to believe importers were involved?

If Tony Bose told me a knife I had on order was made in his shop in IN, should I have been sitting outside his home conducting surveillance to see if evidence of his making knives was present? Or would his word and reputation be enough?
 
Blues said:
I would definitely hold the dealer's feet to the fire if they misrepresented the goods (intentionally), but I'm not convinced that they weren't steered into believing that the goods were made in the USA to begin with.

How do you know they weren't misled? And, what degree of due diligence is required on their part? Do they need to contact importers if they had no reason to believe importers were involved?

If Tony Bose told me a knife I had on order was made in his shop in IN, should I have been sitting outside his home conducting surveillance to see if evidence of his making knives was present? Or would his word and reputation be enough?
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Well, the reputation thing is probably going to be an issue from here out out...
 
3D Anvil said:
I think the only thing we disagree about is whether the dealers bear any responsibility at all. In my opinion, Hoback had a responsibility to set the record straight immediately. He admits that. But I also think dealers have a responsibility to post accurate product descriptions. Most of y'all don't seem to think that's the case.
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You’re going to be hard-pressed to make the case dealers purposefully mislead consumers by posting “USA” as a COO. Hoback started out USA.. and by my observations did not inform anyone, to INCLUDE dealers, that he was outsourcing his work to China. What exactly was to be the impetus for the change in COO at the dealers? Should they have just magically assumed to start asking more vigorously about confirming the COO…. on or about the date he started sourcing in China… without knowing he was doing it?
 
Paratrooper06 said:
You’re going to be hard-pressed to make the case dealers purposefully mislead consumers by posting “USA” as a COO. Hoback started out USA.. and by my observations did not inform anyone, to INCLUDE dealers, that he was outsourcing his work to China. What exactly was to be the impetus for the change in COO at the dealers? Should they have just magically assumed to start asking more vigorously about confirming the COO…. on or about the date he started sourcing in China… without knowing he was doing it?
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It appears King of the Cheese King of the Cheese has landed with one foot on each side of the DMZ. 🤣

Watch out for those mines!
 
Glenn Goodlett said:
I guess Jake got what he wanted, all of the dealers have the COO correct now…at least the ones I visit.
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I think if Jake got what he wanted, he would have continued to fly underneath the radar, leaving COO ambiguous as long as he could until someone found out in less dramatic fashion and he said “oh you didn’t know? Haha my bad.. should’ve asked me, bro!”
 
3D Anvil said:
I think the only thing we disagree about is whether the dealers bear any responsibility at all. In my opinion, Hoback had a responsibility to set the record straight immediately. He admits that. But I also think dealers have a responsibility to post accurate product descriptions. Most of y'all don't seem to think that's the case.
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That's attempting to spin our position, please stop, it's irritating. The dealers don't share any significant portion of this blame because Jake could (and should) have corrected this at any time in the past several years, but didn't. Dealers weren't out to defraud anyone, whereas his actions make clear that China Jake definitely was.

Listen, the knife game isn't in a vacuum. Any maker who caters to the higher end crowd knows concretely that the origin of their products is a significant, important part of the package of their whole product. Jake ALSO knew this, which is why he carefully chose not to allow it to be known that his knives were Chinese made, becaue he knows 100% that people would not pay $550 for a say, a Sumo if they knew it was a Chinese knife. That is concrete. Jake was pulling in significant profits due to the prices he was selling his knives at, knives that people thought were made in the US, why? Because that's what the dealers listed on their site, why?

Because Jake allowed it to continue for several years, and in the meantime lied to customers' faces (as caught on camera) about where those knives were made in order to keep up the charade.

Out of the 28 dealers and Jake Hoback, one of those parties was activing maliciously....and it's not the dealers. That's the difference.
 
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Blues said:
I would definitely hold the dealer's feet to the fire if they misrepresented the goods (intentionally), but I'm not convinced that they weren't steered into believing that the goods were made in the USA to begin with.

How do you know they weren't misled? And, what degree of due diligence is required on their part? Do they need to contact importers if they had no reason to believe importers were involved?

If Tony Bose told me a knife I had on order was made in his shop in IN, should I have been sitting outside his home conducting surveillance to see if evidence of his making knives was present? Or would his word and reputation be enough?
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In point of fact, Whitty mentioned in an hour long video he did on his IG recently, that he only ever did business with Hoback's sales manager. He only recalls having had one conversation with Jake Hoback in person some years ago at a knife show, where he made it clear his company only sells knives made in the United States. So, I guess that means the Sales Manager's job was to tow the company line, which is "Our knives are made in the US, so how many can we put ya down fer?"
 
Blues said:
It appears King of the Cheese King of the Cheese has landed with one foot on each side of the DMZ. 🤣

Watch out for those mines!
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Did he pull a hoback? Those COO stickers get misplaced after the first batch of USA made knives? 😁

It's okay, I doubt readers of this entire thread will forget on which side folks have spent the majority of the time arguing. GB&U is a great place to learn about people, and not just the subjects of the thread...
 
3D Anvil said:
But I do get to dismiss evidence that sucks as evidence.
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In court, if it's admissible at all, you can weigh its probative value.

Incidentally, how would you place your unfounded assumption that "if he affirmatively misrepresented, they would have said something publicly" on the continuum of reliable evidence?

I am not entirely disagreeing with your characterization of the video (except the part where you pretended you could not hear it), but I note: (1) your hypocrisy is grating, and (2) there are ways to lay foundation to ensure evidence is reliable.
 
3D Anvil said:
But I also think dealers have a responsibility to post accurate product descriptions. Most of y'all don't seem to think that's the case.
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Not true at all. In fact, a disingenuous statement of your own. Of course dealers should post accurate info. Mistakes do happen though. This was no mistake. You think USA Made Blade shirked their responsibilities of accurate COO listing?

How often should a dealer check on the COO of each product from each maker? Once a year? Once a month? Once a week? Each freaking item a manufacturer makes? See the problem with that logic? You'd have an entire employed position simply calling to check on every product a dealer sells.

Onus for this is 100% hoback's. When dealers got wind, they did change the COO. They did exactly as they should have. They only information we have that dealer didn't change their info is from the liar hoback himself. You going to put him on the stand?
 
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