IIRC, there was a field corrosion test (not really controlled, just had the knives left outside for a month) done with a knife that used Nathan's heat treat and a knife that used the industry standard. It showed a pretty big difference. The increased in corrosion resistance was likely attributed to the fact Nathan's heat treat allowed more Cr to stay in solution instead of getting tied up as Chromium Carbide. The heat treat absolutely had an affect on the corrosion resistance even if that wasn't the main goal.
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Why Does Everyone Think 1095 is Tough?
- Thread starter James Starr
- Start date
IIRC, there was a field corrosion test (not really controlled, just had the knives left outside for a month) done with a knife that used Nathan's heat treat and a knife that used the industry standard. It showed a pretty big difference. The increased in corrosion resistance was likely attributed to the fact Nathan's heat treat allowed more Cr to stay in solution instead of getting tied up as Chromium Carbide. The heat treat absolutely had an affect on the corrosion resistance even if that wasn't the main goal.
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- Jul 10, 2014
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From my personal experience, I've chipped and broken only various stainless blades but never 1095 or any other carbon steel blade of any kind. But then again, I don't use my knives for tasks that a hatchet or saw are designed to do, I own many of those and use them for chopping and cutting wood. The fact that Esee has a no questions asked lifetime warranty speaks volumes over what nearly all other companies are willing to do in support of their choice to use 1095. My go to steels are 1095 or 14c28n to do knife things.
Bigfattyt
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There are actual charts with the amount or force it takes to break steels search Charpy impact test. There are notched and un-notched tests.
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/02/17/ranking-toughness-of-forging-knife-steels/
Good place to start. I've seen numbers that match his results from long ago.
1095 is one of my favorite steels for edc, because it is just super easy to touch up. I do a few strokes on a ceramic stick after use. I like the character it attains after extended carry and use.
I also like it run at the 58-60 rc range even though that lessens the toughness a good bit.
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I didn't say you were a good blacksmith, lol. Jk. If you can forge a nail you're a better blacksmith than I, and you clearly understand steel better than I do. You're also probably being modest. Anyway, you did make me think of what toughness really means. But regardless, I have come back around to the opinion that there really is nothing intrinsically tough about 1095, but I think we are getting to the meat of my question, which was why people think it is, and that comes down to the treatment that makers give to it. And I think you are also correct in that 1095 is more versatile than a higher alloy steel. I think I had come to that supposition, but your post did push me off the deep end into the realization that it is ultimately whatever you make it. People were throwing charcoal and ore into a crucible made 1095 centuries before 1095 was "invented," and he made it into whatever he wanted. But that doesn't change the intrinsic nature of the steel, which is, honestly, not relatively tough in today's discussion.
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I'm sure Esse makes excellent knives, but I can't speak from experience. As for why S35VN won't outperform their 1095, I have to assume that austempering below a certain point must do bad things to it. It clearly outperforms 1095 on steelnerd's chirpy charts, and he seems well respected around here. He also seems pretty authoritative in general, so I have to conclude that S35VN is intrinsically tougher steel. Certainly, Ease's metallurgists know more than all of us combined though, including steelnerd, so clearly they have a reason for saying that. So I'm back to thinking S35VN doesn't perform well outside of it's recommended hardness range.
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I
I'm glad your Becker is working well for you. That's another maker I don't have any real experience with, but people seem very pleased with their knives. I guess this is why people believe that 1095 is tough.
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Thank you. I'm afraid I even lost track of my original question. I think you answered it very well.
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Yeah, we've been referencing that chart a lot. I've never even considered 1095 as an EDC option, but I don't know why. Well, probably because I haven't seen many edc options available. But it's not too far from D2 in a lot of performance matrices, so I'm sure it would be suitable. In fact, 1095 probably isn't prolific in edc knives due to the ubiquity of D2. In the end, toughness isn't a driving factor for me in edc applications.
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I stand corrected. I am often wrong, but that doesn't stop me from being a smart ass, lol.
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Having the right tool for the job has never stopped me from using the wrong one, lol. I have three nice swedish axes, a boreal and a silky saw. I still baton. I'll even use my saw and axe to make a baton so I can split wood with my knife. I also like carbon steel but live on a bayou. My grampa killed nazis with D2 and I prefer 1095... One time in calculus I found myself dividing part of an equation by two just so I could multiply it by two. My Mom says I have character, lol.
I'm a toolmaker and not a knife person. I've made a couple of chisels out of 1095 (it's fine if the quench is fast enough, but hammering used files to shape makes for a better and much crisper chisel).
When I looked around for a good plain steel for chisels (more plain than O1, and tighter spec than W1), I often saw charts showing "correct hardness" by steel. 1095 at mid 50s on the c scale is what I recall. That is popular enough for me to have someone tell me 1095 would make a bad chisel because it was only "56 hardness".
I'm sure that the toughness is decent at 55 or 56 hardness, but why bother using a high carbon steel at that hardness? A few points below that and it ends up being in spring temper range.
When I looked around for a good plain steel for chisels (more plain than O1, and tighter spec than W1), I often saw charts showing "correct hardness" by steel. 1095 at mid 50s on the c scale is what I recall. That is popular enough for me to have someone tell me 1095 would make a bad chisel because it was only "56 hardness".
I'm sure that the toughness is decent at 55 or 56 hardness, but why bother using a high carbon steel at that hardness? A few points below that and it ends up being in spring temper range.
Give me a list of your relatives - i think they need to buy you chisels for christmas!!! I can give them website addresses for mortise chisels at woodworking suppliers, as well as pry bars!
No joke, on the woodworking side, there are a lot of site chisels (to be used by carpenters rather than for fine work) med of medium carbon steel. They are often decried for their lack of fine edge holding, but also frequently found used with the corners broken off because a chisel may be nearby when someone wants to open a paint can. If they were high hardness and high carbon steel, they'd last far less long yet.
I feel 1095 is more of a brand allegiance. The popularity is not based so much on the steel performance as the logo that has branded the steel. Heat treat is the function of trading properties, bending vs hardness and this is the art of making a quality knife. 1095 has the bushcraft market due to a few companies making it the steel with advertising (batoning).
This thread is full of people vouching for certain companies, is it because of the 1095?
I invested in 3v and can say it was 2-3 times the cost of 1095. But is it better? That is subjective to the use.
This thread is full of people vouching for certain companies, is it because of the 1095?
I invested in 3v and can say it was 2-3 times the cost of 1095. But is it better? That is subjective to the use.
Bigfattyt
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I also have EDC'd D2 a goodly amount. It is a great steel for folders or smaller fixed blades. I really do like it as well. It is a "better steel" for carry from both corrosion resistance (especially in a polished state), and has significantly longer edge retention over 1095. It is much harder on equipment and belts to work.
I have reground hardened D2 and 1095 both ...
I would much rather grind on 1095!!
With diamond stones, d2 is more appealing than if I only had natural stones.
I don't get too riled up about steel toughness or strength in small to mid sized blades. Im ok with less toughness with increased edge retention and vice versa...I like so many steels from cpm3v down to lowely 10XX steels. Even though the 1095 does not have great edge retention, i still like it. Old reliable.
My Corothers in 3V is Better in every way than my Esee in 1095. Both are great knives.
ESEE RB3
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I see what you are saying, compared to more modern alloy steels designed for impact toughness and maybe edge stability etc 1095 is pretty basic and probably isn't as good. I'm not looking at any charts or tests just going by personal experience. I think 1095 can perform pretty well in toughness and in hardness depending on how you treat it and what geometry you give it. It will never be as super as some steels because it's just a poor ole basic carbon steel, but I kind of have a soft spot for simple carbon steels.
It's never going to be considered a top tier steel and is probably already destined to be called budget beater crap for the rest of eternity getting bullied by its Bohler and CPM grand children while walking around on crutches, but hey it's pretty tough it's pretty hard, lets give old 1095 a break guys, it has old war stories and tales of adventure and swashbuckling to tell.
RIP 1095
Interestingly enough, when you get to professional environments, they don't use any "super steels". The Amish here won't have anything to do with stainless knives let alone super steels. They use 1095, and the butchers around here use a simple stainless that can be steeled and sharpened from time to time.
What's missing from 1095 is that it takes skill to make it well at reasonably high hardness, and it can warp in the quench and crack a fair amount.
What's missing from 1095 is that it takes skill to make it well at reasonably high hardness, and it can warp in the quench and crack a fair amount.
afishhunter
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Regardless of other's opinion, I do consider batoning abuse. Most manufacturers do as well, since batoning voids the warranty just like using the knife as a screwdriver and prybar does.
In over 60 years of using my knife in the boonies, not once have I had cause to baton my knife.
Truth to tell, prior to coming to Blade Forums, I'd never heard of it. No one I knew batoned their knife. Reading their books, Nessmuk, Kephart, and Kreps never batoned their knives. The 1911 (first year published) and later Boy Scout Handbooks, do not mention batoning. (None of the aforementioned gentleman, and the BSA chop with their knives, either.) No one "back in the day" batoned their knife. Not the "Mountain Man"/Professional hunters/trappers, Explorers, Settlers, Soldiers, Scouts, "Cowboys", Missionaries, or the Natives.
Knives are a tool for cutting and slicing. Not felling trees or "processing firewood". Strangely enough, I've always been able to find firewood that didn't need splitting, and plenty of dry grass/leaves/moss, twigs, and other materials for kindling, around the camp site. I also carried a supply of hemp or other not cotton string.
I was taught under the "Use The Right Tool For The Job" and the "Finesse and Skill Beats Brute Force" schools.
There are a lot of jobs/tasks out in the sticks and boonies, that a knife is the correct tool for. However, felling a tree, limbing, and "processing firewood" are not numbered among them. Honestly, there are more jobs/tasks in the sticks and boonies were a knife is the wrong tool than it is the right tool.
You want to, or feel you "have" to baton to be doing "bushcraft" "properly"?
Great! Get a froe, beat your axe/hatchet/tomahawk, or if you didn't pack one in, make and use a wedge.
Answer this question honestly:
SCINARIO:
Lets say you're two or three days out from the nearest civilization, and/or your vehicle. You're alone; No one came with you. You're on foot. No ATV, no cellphone coverage, etc.. You're "on your own."
It just started to snow, the temperature is dropping rapidly, along with a significant increase in wind speed, from a breeze to a gale.
You manage to get your tent up.
For whatever reason, you baton with your knife to "process/split your firewood", and it breaks on the first strike. Now you got no knife, and no fire.
What you going to do?
In over 60 years of using my knife in the boonies, not once have I had cause to baton my knife.
Truth to tell, prior to coming to Blade Forums, I'd never heard of it. No one I knew batoned their knife. Reading their books, Nessmuk, Kephart, and Kreps never batoned their knives. The 1911 (first year published) and later Boy Scout Handbooks, do not mention batoning. (None of the aforementioned gentleman, and the BSA chop with their knives, either.) No one "back in the day" batoned their knife. Not the "Mountain Man"/Professional hunters/trappers, Explorers, Settlers, Soldiers, Scouts, "Cowboys", Missionaries, or the Natives.
Knives are a tool for cutting and slicing. Not felling trees or "processing firewood". Strangely enough, I've always been able to find firewood that didn't need splitting, and plenty of dry grass/leaves/moss, twigs, and other materials for kindling, around the camp site. I also carried a supply of hemp or other not cotton string.
I was taught under the "Use The Right Tool For The Job" and the "Finesse and Skill Beats Brute Force" schools.
There are a lot of jobs/tasks out in the sticks and boonies, that a knife is the correct tool for. However, felling a tree, limbing, and "processing firewood" are not numbered among them. Honestly, there are more jobs/tasks in the sticks and boonies were a knife is the wrong tool than it is the right tool.
You want to, or feel you "have" to baton to be doing "bushcraft" "properly"?
Great! Get a froe, beat your axe/hatchet/tomahawk, or if you didn't pack one in, make and use a wedge.
Answer this question honestly:
SCINARIO:
Lets say you're two or three days out from the nearest civilization, and/or your vehicle. You're alone; No one came with you. You're on foot. No ATV, no cellphone coverage, etc.. You're "on your own."
It just started to snow, the temperature is dropping rapidly, along with a significant increase in wind speed, from a breeze to a gale.
You manage to get your tent up.
For whatever reason, you baton with your knife to "process/split your firewood", and it breaks on the first strike. Now you got no knife, and no fire.
What you going to do?
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Survival questions are kind of strange in the first place. If a knife is big and thick enough to be batoned, I probably wouldn't be carrying it, but rather a hatchet in its place. I'd carry a smaller knife like a small hunting folder that's easily sharpened for anything else. The reality with firewood is that (this often comes up with the Silky saw crowd "this is the saw I'd carry for survival!!"). I think I'd rather pick up wood that will burn without any extra work.
As far as maintaining and sharpening go, I do a lot more woodworking than knifing and rather than sharpening once in a while (If you're a hand tooler as I am), you may sharpen 6 or 8 times in a given shop session from completely dull. Any damage is unacceptable and the edge refreshing is wear. That encourages me to chase the same thing with knives. I protect the edge of a tool that will be used for cutting and slicing, and use something else for abuse.
Back to woodworking - sharpening is kind of a hang up for some people when they're new, and sometimes it results in a ten minute process (this is problematic - if you allocate 4 hours of shop time for yourself on a weekend, would you want to spend 80 minutes sharpening? How can you even remember where you left off after 10 minutes, and what if the tool takes some unexpected damage right after a 10 minute routine - will you sharpen 20 minutes for 1 minute of work sandwiched in there? The answer is no.
I found in the cycle of actual use, it's more important that something is easy to sharpen and lasts reasonably long than is a distracting nuisance and lasts twice as long . If i had to "survive" (the first thing I'd do is just walk to a road and stop a car), I'd rather have a simple smaller knife that's good at slicing and a hatchet head (you could fashion yourself a handle out of green wood pretty easily with a knife) or a small froe. If you're going to baton, why not use something soft like a froe with a handle on it. It's the same weight and you're still slicing with a small knife that's easy to sharpen.
As far as maintaining and sharpening go, I do a lot more woodworking than knifing and rather than sharpening once in a while (If you're a hand tooler as I am), you may sharpen 6 or 8 times in a given shop session from completely dull. Any damage is unacceptable and the edge refreshing is wear. That encourages me to chase the same thing with knives. I protect the edge of a tool that will be used for cutting and slicing, and use something else for abuse.
Back to woodworking - sharpening is kind of a hang up for some people when they're new, and sometimes it results in a ten minute process (this is problematic - if you allocate 4 hours of shop time for yourself on a weekend, would you want to spend 80 minutes sharpening? How can you even remember where you left off after 10 minutes, and what if the tool takes some unexpected damage right after a 10 minute routine - will you sharpen 20 minutes for 1 minute of work sandwiched in there? The answer is no.
I found in the cycle of actual use, it's more important that something is easy to sharpen and lasts reasonably long than is a distracting nuisance and lasts twice as long . If i had to "survive" (the first thing I'd do is just walk to a road and stop a car), I'd rather have a simple smaller knife that's good at slicing and a hatchet head (you could fashion yourself a handle out of green wood pretty easily with a knife) or a small froe. If you're going to baton, why not use something soft like a froe with a handle on it. It's the same weight and you're still slicing with a small knife that's easy to sharpen.