Why have locking single-blade folders replace stockman/barlow/pen style knives?

[Dean51]

I will readily admit that I have no clue how to one hand close a liner lock in a manner that doesn't put a finger or thumb in danger. If you could describe that in more detail or maybe point to a video that would be great.

Note: I'm cautious with mid and back locks for the same reason.

If you hold the knife with the blade pointing up, then yes it can close on your thumb. That is called operator error.
Hold the knife with the blade pointing downward, it doesn't have to be straight down.
Use your thumb to open the liner lock and your index finger to partially close.
Adjust your thumb position and finish closing with your index finger.

 

[DrFish]

The point does remain that liner and frame locks require you to put your hand in the path of the blade while unlocking. For most of us the proper usage is muscle memory by now. Try handing one to somebody who's not used to it. It's scary. IF they figure out how to close it, they almost cut themselves.


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[Akcir]

Why modern over traditional? Why smart phone over flip phone?
I don't know, I carry a fixed blade and a flip phone.
I'm really out of step with the modern world!

 

[Shotgun]

I will readily admit that I have no clue how to one hand close a liner lock in a manner that doesn't put a finger or thumb in danger. If you could describe that in more detail or maybe point to a video that would be great.

Note: I'm cautious with mid and back locks for the same reason.

A good design solves this issue. You can close a spyderco millie on your thumb without worry. It's the jimping that will hit your thumb, not the blade.

For me, I hate the aesthetics of traditionals but I like the designs. I'm just not into stag or the weight of all that brass. So I like saks, svords and opis over GEC and the like. I usually have one of those three in my pocket as I find one hand closing to be easier with those designs and more important than one hand opening. I still grab a modern while heading out the door from time to time. I like both.

 

[22-rimfire]

There is the opening and then there is the closing of folders. Seems most are more concerned about the opening rather than the closing. Generally speaking, slip joints are more difficult to open than most modern knife designs, but they are much easier to close in general as you don't have to disengage some locking device. That said, there are slip joints that are liner locks and my favorite Vic Adventurer has a side lock "button slide". I find the side lock very easy to close and because the spring strength is not a problem for normal cutting.

I think with liner locks in general, you really need to pay attention when you close one. For me, this is a two hand operation.

 

[Hickory n steel]

For me the only time I've bled from closing a liner lock was a few times when partly serrated knives ( I dealt with it because they weren't available in plain edge ) fell against my finger and I got pricked. So I guess I'm lucky. I don't personally have an issue with their safety while ohc, but still don't prefer liner locks because I like the constant reassuring force felt when opening a lockback.

I think any folding knife can be unsafe to close if your not careful ( with the exception of an otf )
So it's just up to us to pay attention to what were doing. If your not comfortable with the safety of a liner lock then just don't have one.

 

[Jeff_R]

I have pretty much the Buck equivalent of that Schrade, a 317 I think it is. I HATE that thing, as it will fold up on you in a heartbeat if you're not simply cutting with it.

With respect, I would suggest that one should only be "simply cutting with" a folding knife, whether or not it has a lock.

 

[Hickory n steel]

With respect, I would suggest that one should only be "simply cutting with" a folding knife, whether or not it has a lock.

If he hates it so much he should just send it to me so it can get some appreciation and I'll show him how well a knife like that actually works 😁
I'm serious though, if he hates it that much he should give it to someone who can use it.

 

[pinnah]

Every knife forum I'm on has plenty of pictures of people injured by slipjoints as well. The problem is that we lack data on frequency and severity of injuries.

Fair enough. The point remains that slip joints and friction folders can, by design, be one hand closed more safely than liner/frame locks.

Again, I'm not pushing trads over moderns. Moderns are easier to learn and are faster to deploy.

The huge advantage modern knives have over traditionals is, I think, in the very nature of the two. Modern knives are free to evolve. You can't make a new traditional. It's a contradiction in terms. Traditionals tend to have the edge in terms of cutting geometry, but there's no rules stopping a modern knife maker from matching it whereas if you want a stockman with a quarter inch blade, you're out of luck.

There is something about this I very much agree with and something I don't.

My sense is that every generation of traditionals evolve and shift subtly. I can go up the shop and find some old Trappers of my grandfather's that is sabre ground. Many years later, Buck moved to hollow grinds. Fixed blades change. The Northwoods by KSF are using modern steels. Point being there's a lot of variation and evolution. Traditionals aren't frozen in time.

What I do strongly agree with is the way "modern" and "traditional" reveal very different views about technology, design and goods. The modern view is about progress. Constant progress. I've made my career as a research scientist so it's hard for me to speak against this. Real progress is great. But it's not always real.

I work in an engineering context, and have learned (the hard way) to respect the study of tried and true designs that earn their keep generation to generation. I recently co-led a 4 day backpacking trip and my young co-leader looked at my ancient Svea 123 with bug eyes. By the end of the day, after his new and improved stove failed completely, he was grateful. My Svea has never failed to light even at -15F, just I've had better luck with Opinels than with moderns. By the end of the trip, having learned how to prime it, the stove earned his respect.

It would be wrong to think that Sodbusters and Stockmen and Opinels and Barlows were the only knives carried back in the day. What's harder to see are all the crazy designs that were tried and that have faded into obscurity. They're designs that didn't earn their keep. I've learned that the few surviving designs that have stuck around long enough to earn the label "traditional" have design secrets to teach. Reasons why they work as well as they do.

I did a stint in marketing and learned that purchases are driven by emotional need. The narrative of progress is so thoroughly and deeply held by our culture that it's a deep afront to question it.

But cynically, successful manufacturers have learned to keep churning out this year's new and improved thingie and well trained consumers snap them up in a great cultural celebration of the faith of new and improved.

 

[sodak]

You make some excellent points, Pinnah.

What I have always hoped for was a traditional knife such as a Sodbuster or an Opinel in a really, really modern steel optimized for cutting. CPM 10V at 64 HRC, M390, K294, well, the list goes on and on. Even if the companies won't make it, I would pay dearly for a custom smith to make one. That would be a dream come true, IMO. Combining the best of both worlds, excellent ergonomics and geometry with a highly optimized steel.

 

[mtangent]

If I was looking through a knife catalog, other than it having bearings, bein' a collaboration knife and a fast flipper I still have no idea what it was designed to do. Now having one and puttin' a more acute angle it becomes an excellent slicer, the needle like point is great for cuttin' gasket material the fairly flat blade is great for scrapin' and it would make a reasonable SD tool in a few ways but it's not specifically designed to anything except relieve your pockets of your money. That's not to say it's not a great knife, it is and it's extremely well made but in the end it's a knife meant to cut and for that job with a little reprofilin' of the blade excels at a job it was OK at before.

I agree totally with this. When I got very interested in knives, I started seeing these modern designs for the first time. I had grown up with trads. I kept searching designers sites for some ideas as to the purpose of the design, but nobody states this. Why are the blades so thick? Why is the cutting edge so short compared to the handle? Answers have not been forthcoming. I always thought purpose was a central part of the design process, but not with many modern designers.

 

[22-rimfire]

It took Steve Martin in the Jerk (movie) to adulthood to figure out what his special purpose was. I think with knives beyond some basic concepts, the purpose is often just to sell a knife like fishing lures.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Fair enough. The point remains that slip joints and friction folders can, by design, be one hand closed more safely than liner/frame locks.

Again, I'm not pushing trads over moderns. Moderns are easier to learn and are faster to deploy.



There is something about this I very much agree with and something I don't.

My sense is that every generation of traditionals evolve and shift subtly. I can go up the shop and find some old Trappers of my grandfather's that is sabre ground. Many years later, Buck moved to hollow grinds. Fixed blades change. The Northwoods by KSF are using modern steels. Point being there's a lot of variation and evolution. Traditionals aren't frozen in time.

What I do strongly agree with is the way "modern" and "traditional" reveal very different views about technology, design and goods. The modern view is about progress. Constant progress. I've made my career as a research scientist so it's hard for me to speak against this. Real progress is great. But it's not always real.

I work in an engineering context, and have learned (the hard way) to respect the study of tried and true designs that earn their keep generation to generation. I recently co-led a 4 day backpacking trip and my young co-leader looked at my ancient Svea 123 with bug eyes. By the end of the day, after his new and improved stove failed completely, he was grateful. My Svea has never failed to light even at -15F, just I've had better luck with Opinels than with moderns. By the end of the trip, having learned how to prime it, the stove earned his respect.

It would be wrong to think that Sodbusters and Stockmen and Opinels and Barlows were the only knives carried back in the day. What's harder to see are all the crazy designs that were tried and that have faded into obscurity. They're designs that didn't earn their keep. I've learned that the few surviving designs that have stuck around long enough to earn the label "traditional" have design secrets to teach. Reasons why they work as well as they do.

I did a stint in marketing and learned that purchases are driven by emotional need. The narrative of progress is so thoroughly and deeply held by our culture that it's a deep afront to question it.

But cynically, successful manufacturers have learned to keep churning out this year's new and improved thingie and well trained consumers snap them up in a great cultural celebration of the faith of new and improved.

I think what you're after is the great weakness of modern knives. They are, first and foremost, designed to make money. Traditionals evolved to fill a need, and patterns that did it best lived on. That is one aspect of the cutlery business that has seemingly fallen by the wayside.

 

[Hickory n steel]

It took Steve Martin in the Jerk (movie) to adulthood to figure out what his special purpose was. I think with knives beyond some basic concepts, the purpose is often just to sell a knife like fishing lures.

I agree with that.
I notice on a lot of modern knives that the design is for nothing more than looks. It's almost like they were designed by a graphic design artist vs an engineer. They may still be functional but just not precise and to the point like they should be..
Why should a knifes blade be broad and curvy with a dramatically dropping point ( almost like a sheep's foot ) with lots of dips in its spine ? And handles often having a mix of square corners and curves ? ( the spyderco's delica and crk sebenza don't do this because they were designed only for function )

 

[jackknife]

I agree with that.
I notice on a lot of modern knives that the design is for nothing more than looks. It's almost like they were designed by a graphic design artist vs an engineer. They may still be functional but just not precise and to the point like they should be..
Why should a knifes blade be broad and curvy with a dramatically dropping point ( almost like a sheep's foot ) with lots of dips in its spine ? And handles often having a mix of square corners and curves ? ( the spyderco's delica and crk sebenza don't do this because they were designed only for function )

It's just like the fishing lure market. Walk down that isle in the sorting goods store and look t al the shiny lures with spinners, flaps and whatchamacallits and streamers. They are not designed to really catch fish. They are designed to catch fishermen's wallets.

Same with knives. The modern knife market is an artificially driven market where the function of the item has actually in some cases taken a backseat to sales and marketing. To many designs aimed at the Walter Mitty market unlike a knife marketed a hundred years ago for some homesteader in Nebraska, rancher in Texas, or a commercial fisherman on a trawler out of Halifax.

Those handles with the square corners and odd shapes were designed by people who don't work with their hands, but they look good to a gamer. The swoopy blade shapes may look good to someone thinking of 'de-animating' an enemy sentry, but have little use cleaning a trout or helping the grandchild make a perfect hot dog roasting stick.

If the knife manufactures really want to do something useful, why not take the traditional knives into the 21st century? Take a, stockman, and make it with a titanium frame and bolsters for lighter weight and stronger construction, and add a lock on the main blade for those who feel safer with a lock. It can be done. Camillus way back in the later 60,s early 70's had a lock rancher as they called it, that had a lock on the main blade. It didn't sell well so they dropped it. Or put a liner lock on it like they had on the screw driver blade on the old military issue TL-29.

I have nothing against progress if it gives me real benefits and a better tool. For most of my life I was a die hard revolver man. Those square auto things? Naa, no way. But I now am a Glock fan and love my little model 26. After trying one that my cousin kept pushing on me, I realized it gave me a better tool, so now I carry what many in the gun world call a "tupperware gun." Things change and things sometimes actually get better. If I can see a real advantage I'll take it. But I don't want something that was designed for looks and to appeal to players of "Call To Glory" or something. I want real world use of it.

This knife was made about 70 years ago by a master cutler who had worked in the Solingen trade. The handle was made form a split piece of crown stag that fit the hand well. The original owner of it gifted it to me in the early 1980's, and it still works well today. Smooth contours are very comfortable under working conditions.

[/url]Untitled by Carl Levitan, on Flickr[/IMG]

Here's a Sardininan Resolza with rams horn handle. Again a nice smoothed out contour for working with. This pattern of knife has been in use in Sardinia for many hundreds of years, by both shepherds in the hills and the fishermen working from boats out on the water. NIce strait blade with a good point, has a very wide range of capability, and feels good in hand.

[/url]Untitled by Carl Levitan, on Flickr[/IMG]

Could both of these knives be improved by making them in modern materials with better steel. Of course they can. Add a blade lock for those who wish? Heck yes. Modern FRN handles can be molded into nay shape, so that's no problem. These knives, like the French Opinel, have been proven by decades, or in some cases, centuries, of hard use by peasants making a living out of the local terrain or sea.

 

[Ankerson]

I look at slip joints and modern knives like I do automatic transmission compared to manual.

They have their place and uses, sometime one will work better than the other and vice versa.

I grew up using slip joints and graduated to the more modern folders for various reasons, mostly because I used them at work and the modern ones are easier to use when you have to pull a knife out a lot on a daily basis.

Same reason why I prefer liner and frame locks, very quick and easy to me.

Kinda like a manual transmission when stuck in traffic.... Compared to an automatic.

 

[Pomsbz]

If the knife manufactures really want to do something useful, why not take the traditional knives into the 21st century? Take a, stockman, and make it with a titanium frame and bolsters for lighter weight and stronger construction, and add a lock on the main blade for those who feel safer with a lock. It can be done. Camillus way back in the later 60,s early 70's had a lock rancher as they called it, that had a lock on the main blade. It didn't sell well so they dropped it. Or put a liner lock on it like they had on the screw driver blade on the old military issue TL-29.

I'm all for this. There have been some attempts, the Al Mar Ultralight or the Cold Steel Lucky series for example or some of the stuff custom makers are creating, but the surface has barely been scratched and I think it's a shame. Tradition for the sake of traditions sake is all very well but the concept of taking all that made a traditional work so well and for so long but filling in some of the inherent deficiencies, is a market yet to be tapped. Instead the world is far too busy either sticking their heels into the sand or throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[DrFish]

Well, there's the Cold Steel Twistmaster. Don't know if they still make them since I don't shop Cold Steel, but its basically a modern Opinel.


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[22-rimfire]

The traditional knife companies should seriously consider and upgrade in materials. I suspect their stamping machines can't handle anything more than brass and perhaps stainless steel. Better higher end steels generally requires laser cutting of blade blanks. BUT, would people pay for the upgrade? Or would they just look at the price increase and it continues to price them out of the market relative to the imports?

 

[Sosa]

Some have tried but they were largely rejected. Can't please everyone.