Why so stainless?

Bigfattyt said:
Ankerson has more than a high post count. He is pretty knowledgeable in sharpening, and has demonstrated a lot of dedication to testing steels. Significant time, energy, and skill.
Click to expand...

Some of my post count is in the hidden forums that are only seen with Paid Membership or above. :D
 
midnight flyer said:
No kidding. And then throw in the "I know more than you do because I have more posts and people like me better" attitude and it completely ruins these threads. That, and the "dogpiling" on to teach someone a lesson for a perceived slight make it almost impossible to have intelligent discourse. This place is more and more like the good old boys club of the cool kids, and then everyone that isn't cool.

Don't ask a question the wrong way. Don't express yourself incorrectly. Don't disagree with the herd. Don't disagree with the popular kids. Don't disagree with long held and precious beliefs of those with more posts than you have.

I see more and more of that around here these days.

I can't imagine how nasty this place would be without moderators.

Robert
Click to expand...
Stainless and Carbon both have their place. I have knives is each that I like very much. One does not have to be crap for the other to be good.

To Roberts point,,, I agree,,, I have witnessed a clique mentality and when I hear someone respond with a how many posts they have as a badge of honor it drives me crazy. Whoopy do,,, you post a lot,,, that must make you smart.

Whatever,, I don't have enough posts to have an opinion anyway. :)
 
AR RiverValley said:
Stainless and Carbon both have their place. I have knives is each that I like very much. One does not have to be crap for the other to be good.

To Roberts point,,, I agree,,, I have witnessed a clique mentality and when I hear someone respond with a how many posts they have as a badge of honor it drives me crazy. Whoopy do,,, you post a lot,,, that must make you smart.

Whatever,, I don't have enough posts to have an opinion anyway. :)
Click to expand...


Post count doesn't mean as much as what one does on the forum. ;)
 
Ankerson said:
Low end stainless and the simple carbon steels are generally close in performance assuming a good Heat Treatment.

Now start getting into the higher alloy non-stainless like D2, 3V, 4V, M4, 10V and things change a lot and the cost goes up also.

I won't comment on the cost issue other than to say people generally get what they pay for, but that's not to say that one has to spend $500 on a knife either.
Click to expand...

Now say something like that to Don Hanson or Nick Wheeler, Hey my 440c with Bos heat treat are close in performance to your W2!!??? What a BS statement there...

I have a bunch of friend who are knife maker and some of them considered to be the best maker in my country, so many time we have tried and tested high alloy steel like S30V or ELMAX against W1 or 52100 on cutting sisal robe, 2x4 and etc. (my friend is the host of annual cutting competition so we have plenty of 2x4 and robe) and from time to time testing have shown that high alloy PM steel doesn't hold an edge any longer than low alloy carbon steel...

Sometime I very doubt on your metallurgy knowledge, you seems to be very bias toward steel high carbide steel and also keep saying something not so smart like "optimal hardness" or "steel X at 2HRC higher will be the difference animal.." really? Do you know that there are million way to heat treat, for example CPM154 to any hardness from 5X-6Xrc. The final hardness of any steel be desided by austenitizing temp, soak time, quench rate, tempering, subzero/cryo or even the preparation on some kind of steel or normalizing could be crucial factor.

Two steel with the same amount of carbon, one with higher alloy/carbide doesn't mean it will hold an edge longer, there are way toooo many factor involve. When someone said something obtuse like higher carbide = better edge holding always make me amuse...
 
Last edited:
I am not a steel expert but I can see where the OP is coming from at least in so far as fixed blades are concerned. I find the super steels too expensive and between a cheap carbon steel knife and a cheap stainless, my experience has been that the cheap carbon steel knives perform better.

I believe that, as long as you have a quality knife, having the ability to sharpen and being skillfull at using a knife will always trump the issue of what steel to use. That's not to say we shouldn't discuss which steel is best (this is a knife forum after all) but I sometimes wonder if we lose sight of what's really important.
 
I believe that Spyderco made an Endura in Super Blue, which is a pretty simple steel in a knife model that the OP has. The use of the term "carbon steel" is misleading. All steel has carbon. What we often call carbon steels are really low to no-alloy steels.

Simple steels can be very tough and take a fine edge, but mid- to high-alloy steels -- whether stainless or not -- offer serious advantages. 3V, for example, is considerably tougher than 1095. 10V will hold an edge way, way, way longer than 1095.

And some of the new balanced high-alloy steels, such as M390 and M4, have incredibly good balance between wear resistance and toughness.

I have a number of simple carbon steels that I like a lot, including Aogami Super Blue, Hitachi white and 1095. But for specific uses, today's modern high-allow steels, many of them stainless, are always going to outperform 1095.

My latest knife, a Benchmade Barrage in M390, has incredibly thin blade geometry that cuts like crazy, holds an edge longer than simple steels and is more then tough enough for EDC use. The fact that it's stainless is a bonus.
 
thelastbestplace said:
I am not a steel expert but I can see where the OP is coming from at least in so far as fixed blades are concerned. I find the super steels too expensive and between a cheap carbon steel knife and a cheap stainless, my experience has been that the cheap carbon steel knives perform better.

I believe that, as long as you have a quality knife, having the ability to sharpen and being skillfull at using a knife will always trump the issue of what steel to use. That's not to say we shouldn't discuss which steel is best (this is a knife forum after all) but I sometimes wonder if we lose sight of what's really important.
Click to expand...

Word.
 
Twindog said:
I believe that Spyderco made an Endura in Super Blue, which is a pretty simple steel in a knife model that the OP has. The use of the term "carbon steel" is misleading. All steel has carbon. What we often call carbon steels are really low to no-alloy steels.

Simple steels can be very tough and take a fine edge, but mid- to high-alloy steels -- whether stainless or not -- offer serious advantages. 3V, for example, is considerably tougher than 1095. 10V will hold an edge way, way, way longer than 1095.

And some of the new balanced high-alloy steels, such as M390 and M4, have incredibly good balance between wear resistance and toughness.

I have a number of simple carbon steels that I like a lot, including Aogami Super Blue, Hitachi white and 1095. But for specific uses, today's modern high-allow steels, many of them stainless, are always going to outperform 1095.

My latest knife, a Benchmade Barrage in M390, has incredibly thin blade geometry that cuts like crazy, holds an edge longer than simple steels and is more then tough enough for EDC use. The fact that it's stainless is a bonus.
Click to expand...

I love Super Blue. I actually find it holds extremely acute edge angles better than some of the real carbide monsters. It may not be as good for cutting abrasives, but the edge geometry you can get on it makes it a joy to cut with.
 
AR RiverValley said:
Stainless and Carbon both have their place. I have knives is each that I like very much. One does not have to be crap for the other to be good.

To Roberts point,,, I agree,,, I have witnessed a clique mentality and when I hear someone respond with a how many posts they have as a badge of honor it drives me crazy. Whoopy do,,, you post a lot,,, that must make you smart.

Whatever,, I don't have enough posts to have an opinion anyway. :)
Click to expand...

Theres a good reason my post count is as low as it is. Lurking can be far more productive sometimes.

Theres a ton of knowledge here. Unfortunately, dealing with all the elitism, bruised egos and hurt butts, overthinking, overcomplicating, hashing out drama, arguing, and constantly clarifying things that were clear to begin with is exhausting. Many times, things end up so far off, i dont get what i was originally after anyway.

Maybe i should use more smilies.
 
So, given the same use, let's say you have to sharpen one knife for 5 minutes every other day, and another knife for 15 minutes every two weeks... which one is really easier to sharpen? ;)

RX-79G said:
I'm wondering if AEBL would be a good steel for a carbon steel guy to play with. Very small carbides and grain.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. I lovingly refer to AEB-L/13C26 as "the stainless steel for people who don't like stainless steels". Very tough, very fine edges, very easy to sharpen, also very affordable.

FWIW I make knives out of simple "carbon" steels, tool steels, and high-alloy "stainless" steels. As another member here once said, I'm more of a steel slut than a steel snob. Whatever works for you is fine with me.
 
Last edited:
shqxk said:
Now say something like that to Don Hanson or Nick Wheeler, Hey my 440c with Bos heat treat are close in performance to your W2!!??? What a BS statement there...

I have a bunch of friend who are knife maker and some of them considered to be the best maker in my country, so many time we have tried and tested high alloy steel like S30V or ELMAX against W1 or 52100 on cutting sisal robe, 2x4 and etc. (my friend is the host of annual cutting competition so we have plenty of 2x4 and robe) and from time to time testing have shown that high alloy PM steel doesn't hold an edge any longer than low alloy carbon steel...

Sometime I very doubt on your metallurgy knowledge, you seems to be very bias toward steel high carbide steel and also keep saying something not so smart like "optimal hardness" or "steel X at 2HRC higher will be the difference animal.." really? Do you know that there are million way to heat treat, for example CPM154 to any hardness from 5X-6Xrc. The final hardness of any steel be desided by austenitizing temp, soak time, quench rate, tempering, subzero/cryo or even the preparation on some kind of steel or normalizing could be crucial factor.

Two steel with the same amount of carbon, one with higher alloy/carbide doesn't mean it will hold an edge longer, there are way toooo many factor involve. When someone said something obtuse like higher carbide = better edge holding always make me amuse...
Click to expand...



Interesting since I have posted a number of times over the years for ANYONE to send me one of those miracle knives to test.....

So far NOBODY has sent me one to compare so everyone can see how they do compared to what's already posted.

So....... ;)

No takers so far..... None, ZERO, Zippo, NANNA......

So if you want to look at someone or blame someone don't look at me.... ;)
 
Last edited:
My only non stainless blade is SK5 a CRKT FTWS. And sitting in its sheath in the house with the AC on in sunny FL it tried to oxide. A quick strop and wipe down with any oily rag and its hasn't since.
Everything else I own is stainless: VG-10 M390 20CV BG42 440C
 
Ankerson said:
Interesting since I have posted a number of times over the years for ANYONE to send me one of those miracle knives to test.....
So far NOBODY has sent me one to compare so everyone can see how they do compared to what's already posted.
Click to expand...

Don't hold your breath... it's not going to happen anytime soon.
 
james terrio said:
Don't hold your breath... it's not going to happen anytime soon.
Click to expand...

You and I both know that, but some others don't seem to think so.

It's NOT an easy test, not really.

But they love to talk...
 
Last edited:
shqxk said:
I have a bunch of friend who are knife maker and some of them considered to be the best maker in my country, so many time we have tried and tested high alloy steel like S30V or ELMAX against W1 or 52100 on cutting sisal robe, 2x4 and etc. (my friend is the host of annual cutting competition so we have plenty of 2x4 and robe) and from time to time testing have shown that high alloy PM steel doesn't hold an edge any longer than low alloy carbon steel...
Click to expand...

I'm sure the folks at BladeSports would be interested to examine your findings. It's been quite some time since anyone won a championship with a low-alloy knife. By far, most competitors (including the guys with the most championships and world records under their belts) are using blades made of CPM-M4... very high-alloy, very high carbide content, tempered quite hard, with very thin edges.

Ankerson said:
It's NOT an easy test, not really.
Click to expand...

I'd truly love to make samples of several alloys myself strictly for testing, but cost is a huge factor. The labor alone would take at least a couple weeks, to really do it right.

For such an experiment to have serious validity in my mind would require at least two, maybe three blades of each given steel type, all with as close to the same geometry as I'm able to achieve without jigs or CNC requirements... preferably in at least two, maybe three hardnesses - the best balance of hardness/toughness for each type, the highest practical hardness for each type, and a baseline that's the same for all types (say, 58 or 60Rc).

A couple small slicers of each alloy would be one thing, but to test comp-cutter style knives that can effectively make heavy chopping/slashing cuts as well as much more delicate cuts is a whole other ball of wax - say we select 4 alloys... low-alloy simple carbon like 52100 or W2, tool steels like 3V and M4, and a high-end stainless like Elmax or CTS-XHP - we're talking hundreds, maybe a thousand dollars worth of steel, before I even start grinding them or have them heat-treated.

Now if anyone would like to sponsor such an endeavor, and get a couple testers lined up to do truly independent, blind cutting with such blades, please let me know! I might even be able to get my steel vendors and HT provider to chip in to help cover materials/services costs...


But it wouldn't really matter in the long run. Most people from all schools of thought in this matter tend to believe what they want to believe, and disregard all evidence to the contrary. You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think.
 
Last edited:
james terrio said:
I'm sure the folks at BladeSports would be interested to examine your findings. It's been quite some time since anyone won a championship with a low-alloy knife. By far, most competitors are using blades made of CPM-M4... very high-alloy, very high carbide content, tempered quite hard, with very thin edges.



I'd truly love to make samples like of several alloys myself strictly for testing, but cost is a huge factor. The labor alone would take at least a couple weeks, to really do it right.

For such an experiment to have serious validity in my mind would require at least two, maybe three blades of each given steel type, all with as close to the same geometry as I'm able to achieve without jigs or CNC requirements... preferably in at least two, maybe three hardnesses - the best balance of hardness/toughness for each type, the highest practical hardness for each type, and a baseline that's the same for all types (say, 58 or 60Rc).

A couple small slicers of each alloy would be one thing, but to test comp-cutter style knives that can effectively make heavy chopping/slashing cuts as well as much more delicate cuts is a whole other ball of wax - we're talking hundreds of dollars worth of steel, before I even start grinding them or have them heat-treated.

Now if anyone would like to sponsor such an endeavor, and get a couple testers lined up to do truly independent, blind cutting with such blades, please let me know! I might even be able to get my steel vendors and HT provider to chip in to help cover materials/services costs...


But it wouldn't really matter in the long run. Most people from all schools of thought in this matter tend to believe what they want to believe, and disregard all evidence to the contrary. You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think.
Click to expand...


Yes I know and understand completely. :thumbup:

Being on the other end of the phone with more than few makers over years and others face to face you can guess what sort of things I have heard. :D

Start talking real money and they all run the other way, that's people I mean, not the makers.

And as you know we aren't talking a few hundred bucks, more into the thousands before it's done..

Everyone has to get paid, the steel suppliers, the knife makers and the person or people doing the testing..

It adds up... Quick.
 
Last edited:
Ankerson said:
No takers so far...
Click to expand...

Yeah... I've never even gotten an answer to this simple question I asked earlier.... and I've asked it several times over the years as well :D

james terrio said:
So, given the same use, let's say you have to sharpen one knife for 5 minutes every other day, and another knife for 15 minutes every two weeks... which one is really easier to sharpen?
Click to expand...
 
Ankerson said:
Interesting since I have posted a number of times over the years for ANYONE to send me one of those miracle knives to test.....

So far NOBODY has sent me one to compare so everyone can see how they do compared to what's already posted.

So....... ;)

No takers so far..... None, ZERO, Zippo, NANNA......

So if you want to look at someone or blame someone don't look at me.... ;)
Click to expand...

To be honest I never want to blame you Ankerson, in fact I always respect your effort. Many years ago I even have bought some knives base on your steel ranking.

But time goes and I have been using/testing by myself, have met many knife maker and also a chemical engineer who developed the heat treat recipe for tool industrial. We often drink together and have a conversation about metallurgy, have test how simple alloy steel would fall against the more complicated one. The result are totally different from your ranking.

Since we both no one have a video recording while we doing the test so our word carry the same weight. Anyone can say any steel would do XX cut on sisal robe before it dull but it wouldn't has any value without a video.. I think of doing a straight video of carbon steel vs high carbide one soon.

This Russian guy also do the same testing as you Ankerson but with a straight video. I doubt that high carbide are always hold en edge longer? seems not likely judge from this guy quoteworthy test.

https://www.youtube.com/user/RuslanKiyasov/videos
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top