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- Thread starter thatoneguy01
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Esav Benyamin
MidniteSuperMod
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Like Chris Reeve with the framelock, Walker did not claim any rights over the liner lock.
Michael Walker invented the refined form of liner lock that combines locking and blade positioning in 1981. The 1906 version is used in conjunction with a slipjoint. Walker's invention included several refinements to many aspects of folding knife design. It is a very distinct design that we use pretty much as he invented it.
Walker and Reeve didn't claim any patent rights. Benchmade didn't claim any international patent rights. In China they have exactly the same rights. That isn't some little technicality - the US is just one country in a big world.
That was my next point the liner lock that walker improved upon and made it what it is today as well as the reeve integral lock were basically gifts to the community like the hoback rolling detent more recently. Hoback said anyone can use it just give him credit .
Some makers do this ,others get a patent and they are protected . Many makers have discussed the issue with other countries not enforcing patent laws etc.
Other countries not honoring patents does not justify any company copying or using someone elses stuff . You can argue it all day long ,it's still stealing .
Benchmark's Axis patent dies in a few months. Will you label the first company to use a lock like that "thieves"?
Patents have limits on purpose. All the knives we have today are collections of "stolen" or "borrowed" ideas from prior makers. Whether Reeve "gifted" his design or simply acknowledged that he wasn't going to be able to patent on his version of a linerlock is beside the point.
And there is no "honoring" international patents. Patents are either in force, or not. You can apply and get a patent in any country.
I'm saying you fly on airplanes, take medications and use computers because what you call "stealing" is how the technology develops in civilization. You are picking an incredibly arbitrary line to say when it is wrong and when it is okay.
Thats the part youre missing about IP protection and trade dress law/rulings... it IS possible to protect your famous design from product that resembles yours enough that it can be confused for it or dilutes or tarnishes yours(even if the damaged is perceived and not actual), EVEN if your products design is not registered.
So even if the Sebenza shape isnt registered, design can be protected against copies.
The problem is the court proceedings for damages of this type are expensive and time consuming. Something counterfeiters know. They realize its not actually in the best interest of the companies they are copying to attempt to fight them in court. The time and money expended on the matter would be too much for a smaller company. This is why you rarely if ever here about any IP/design lawsuits unless they involve the likes of Apple,CocaCola, Ferrari,Google, Hershey, Samsung, etc....entities that have the resources to make the endeavor worth it, even if the target(counterfeiter) is a small operation.
Hey, I agree that what you posted is pretty much counterfeit. It is designed to look and feel like the real thing, including arbitrary color choices. It certainly isn't cool or something anyone should be proud of.
That's a little different than a company that legally makes a product that has a proper brand name on it and is functionally similar to another product. Neither is necessarily illegal, but the second one has been normal for the history of cutlery. People in the US commonly go into business doing things like making "Randall style" knives. And we have many nice pics of those in the Outdoor forum. No one complains about those.
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My Old Man was fond of sayin', "...just 'cause ya say it louder the second time don't make it anymore right"
In regards to normal people and normal people who collect/use knives, two totally different animals. It's enthusiasts vs non enthusiasts, two different knowledge bases and if you include the next level of knife person, an educated well informed collector/user it's exponentially different in the amount of knowledge people at this level have. I'd be hard pressed to be fooled about a sebenza at this point because I've owner a couple and being the fanatical person I am about cutlery I learned everything I could about Sebenzas before getting my first one. When I held that first one in my hand I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt it was genuine. The average person wouldn't have a clue and I'd be willing to bet that 75% or better of the average collector/user couldn't tell the difference either.
I have no issues with Chinese manufactured knives as long as they were not misrepresented in a way that can be misconstrued as someone else's knife. Then there's the licensing of trademarked, copyrighted and patented ideas. The Walker Liner Lock issue is a copyright of a term, leaf spring locks have been around a lot longer than Walker.
If it affects someone financially or impacts their business in anyway it's illegal at least here in the good ol' USA where I live. I don't approve/condone the act of theft by deception, there are some companies that make knives in china and for the price make a decent knife, Rough Rider's a great example, they make knives with patterns that have been around in some cases over 200 years old. I'm not fooled into thinking a $14 Rough Rider Splitback Whittler is anything like a Remington (old) or Robeson, other than by a common pattern the two have nothing else in common.
That's why companies pay for trademarks, patents and copyrights, don't they have a right to be protected from other people making a profit off their concept, name or invention. Schrade went belly up and the reason for that's another discussion all together but they allowed their name to be sold as an asset, along with a ton of other old trademarked names that the protection they initially paid for lapsed. Someone in Taylor Brand got smart and bought a bunch of knife company names who's trademarks had run out. There's nothing wrong with that but if they make them in asia and stamp USA on them and there's no other indication of country of origin it's illegal.
Anyone remember how the influx of Japanese made knives that came into the country in the 70s and 80s with either bubble jetted made in japan on the knives or little stickers that said the same thing. These were popping up at shows and were being sold to unsuspecting people without the knowledge of the country they were made in. Some one was mysteriously wiping off the ink with alcohol or just peeling the stickers off. People were deceived if even on a small scale it was wrong, on a larger scale it was theft just the same, the only difference was the amount money that was stolen.
Just because everyone does it, still doesn't make it right and I have to question the values of anyone whose sole argument is essentially "Everyone else does it" grow up, those people are the ones who believe it's OK till it happens to them. Nothing like selective morals and values to show a persons true colors. Sorry RG, no amount of rationalizing or justifying on your end makes it right and the fact that you don't see it that way speaks volumes about you.
Everyone's got the right to spend their money where they want but don't tell me it's OK because you do it, I don't have to agree with you and if you tell me your opinion you better damn well expect the same from me, the difference is I won't force it on you by repeating myself or stating the same facts only in CAPS and personally beyond this small opinion of mine I really don't care what your opinion on the matter is as it has little value beyond entertaining me and proving that there's still people like you out there who are so deafened by the shouting of their misguided beliefs they can't hear the truth over their own voice. Living in an insulated belief system works very well when you're alone but falls apart quickly when exposed for what it is to anyone other than the person living in that bubble. The worst part of that is they'll never know and continue to dwell in blissful ignorance.
RG don't bother to reply as it'll only be a rehash of the same detritus you've been handing out already and I've no desire to read what you're about post especially if it's just more of the same.
Ganzo claims their 'Axis' lock as their own (no mention of Benchmade) while the custom makers who make Randall-style and Loveless-style blades make sure and credit the maker who inspired them.
Big difference right there
Big difference right there
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Seriously curious. Why is the axis lock patent only good in the U.S.? Did they fail to file in other territories? I file patents outside the U.S. all the time so not sure why they wouldn't do that as well. Did they just choose not to file in China or was it not granted (or not being enforced). I may have to spend some time looking this up.
Also, just because someone can't get a patent in a certain territory doesn't make an identical product produced there not a counterfeit or clone simply because it has legal standing in one country. It is still theft of innovation.
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