A.G. Russell Traditonal Knives: Should They Be Made In The USA Or Not?

Good to hear on your leather working stuff being USA made Paul . As you mentioned the parts inside the iMac , not made in the USA , parts inside the Artisan's , some not made in the USA. Point being , to a degree , it is hard not to support foreign made.

It is hard, so where there is a choice that is possible, I choose U.S. made(it is more expensive, and so vastly worth it)

So let me ask this , is it that they are foreign made , or that they are China made that irks folks ?
John,

I can't speak for the others, but I chose not to buy Chinese goods when there are other options...simple as that.

I believe in the courage and commitment of a moral stance, but also believe it is most effective when accompanied by well thought out action.
roland
Roland, I think my well thought out action would be to put you on "ignore", but I cannot bring myself to do it. Instead, I shall purchase another U.S. made slipjoint in your honor, and send one along to you, should you so desire.

Good post, Gus, thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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Production "traditional" slipjoints should be US or German-made. Just IMNSHO.

Unless, of course, there's a Chinese tradition of slipjoint manufacture of which I am unaware.
 
Very good post, and that's all I have to say about that.

Okay I'll concede a possible point, but then I would have to give up all my American manufacturers/makers who dare to make products with anything like a Japanese influence since there's no tradition of it here. I mean, how many samurai were running around the Old West?

This is one of those threads that I could easily write off as being a waste of time since it seems to be devoid of any intent of actual discussion and guided more towards trying to prove that nobody can make us think differently than we do---which to me is so obvious that it could do without being stated. Still, in the interest of furthering discussion in the very mild hope that any words can penetrate lines in the sand (and the impassable forcefields they create complete with cool bluish glowy effect) I'll take a crack at it.

Because of the choices we've made as a nation (and not all of them were mistakes) we're no longer quite the manufacturing giant that we once were in all product fields. Now, of course, it should be pointed out that we actually do build a HELL of a lot of things, but our factories are usually automated and quite expensive, and as such are given over to manufacturing things that cost a whole hell of a lot more than a pocketknife or sell to a much wider market. Nevertheless, in smaller durable goods (tools, toys, textiles, etc.) we have certainly let things drift away to other shores. This is one of those things that I have a gut reaction to that can be pretty much summed up with, "that's awful" and yet, I have to cope with the dichotomy that never once in my life have I ever aspired to be bent over a sewing machine for ten hours a day, and it's rather narcissistic of me to say that job should be done by "some American" so long as it isn't me. The "greatest generation" that rolled up its sleeves and out-manufactured the entire world did it for patriotism, did it in hope for the future, but they sure as hell didn't do it because they found extremely repetitive tasks to be mentally stimulating. They also encouraged their children to be the most college-bound generation in the history of the nation so that they wouldn't be stuck with the same kind of work their parents slaved over. Our values have led us to where we are in manufacturing, simple as that. As such, hating or refusing to support somebody because their values led them to where THEY are in manufacturing just seems kind of goofy to me. Yes, I understand the ideological differences between the two countries in question, but I honestly believe that continued market success and increasing wealth and knowledge among the Chinese people is actually the best hope there is of shattering those things we don't like about their government. An ever growing population of people who know that their lives could be better than they've been led to believe is a serious recipe for change. I wouldn't be even sort of surprised to see a Chinese democratic republic form within my lifetime. As such, if through a purchase I can support a group of workers who turn out superior work, and thus reinforce in them this revolutionary capitalist idea that effort brings reward, I get to enjoy a nice knife and take a nice little shot at the foundations of a repressive communist mindset in one go, which is frankly rather appealing.

Now I absolutely, categorically, love good products that are stamped/stenciled with a big 'ol "USA" on the side. The key word within that sentence though, to my mind, is "good" and it's the pivot point on which my decision hinges when it comes time to buy. Call me a sunshine patriot if you will, but the simple fact of something being located here doesn't make me proud of it. I was born at 38°51′48″N 104°47′31″W. It's geographically within North America!! Woohoo!! Exciting, huh? Not really--the geography isn't what makes America America or me an American. Now, I am proud to be American--because of our very improbable success as a country in the face of overwhelming odds (free people who continue to cohere of their own free will, ragtag group of peasants defeating the most powerful empire in the world, etc), because of our mighty history of overcoming obstacles both physical and ideological, and because of the ideals that we aspire to. See, I'm proud of the things that stand out as great, where we truly are unexcelled by the rest of the world as far as I'm concerned. There are areas where we're not the best in the world, however. I'm a bit of a wine buff, and have to own up to the fact that not only do I buy and enjoy primarily European products but I also don't think that lessens my patriotism. I also have a ridiculously expensive gun habit, and my favorite double rifles happen to come from England, and yet holding/shooting them has yet to fill me with a desire to pee on the American flag. I appreciate quality, hard work, attention to detail and the resultant pride of ownership wherever I find it, and while I'm happy to appreciate it here in the good 'ol U.S. when it's available, I also won't pretend it is where it's not. I buy factory and custom, U.S. and foreign, and operate in the happy knowledge that my American credit card company takes interest off of my internet purchase from an American knife distributor who ships me my product using an American parcel carrier, and every single bit of that money that goes to their American employees recycles back into the American marketplace, regardless of where the product itself was made.

I've worn an American uniform and been shot at for America, and personally think that my support for this country is more strongly proven by those actions than by the tang stamp on the knife I cut my apple slices with. This doesn't mean I'm right or anyone else is wrong, it's just my take.
 
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STeven, why would you think of putting me on your "ignore" list ? Please explain. I have made no derogatory comments about you. Is it simply that you don't like to have your beliefs challenged ?
And, sincerely, thank you for offering to send me a made in U.S.A. knife. If you really want to, i will graciously accept. However i don't really 'need' another U.S.A. knife. I alreay have about 2500-3000 U.S.A. knives: folders and fixed blades, vintage and current production, and all of my approximately 150 Customs were made by American knifemakers.
roland
 
Production "traditional" slipjoints should be US or German-made. Just IMNSHO.

Unless, of course, there's a Chinese tradition of slipjoint manufacture of which I am unaware.

Very good post, and that's all I have to say about that.

Wow, not even a nod to the British? (Let alone any other European nation with an established tradition of slipjoint manufacture...)

You know, all of my purchased (production) slipjoints are of U.S. manufacture, and all of my custom slipjoints (but one by the supremely talented Ryuichi Kawamura) are made by U.S. makers.
However, I've got to shake my head at some of the reasons and replies I've been reading here.

I like American made slipjoints (fully realizing that the tradition originated overseas) and will continue to buy them as long as I can afford them. I too have served and risked life and limb in service of my country but I try not to let that love of country stop me from embracing reality or the fundamental humanity and dignity of other countries and cultures.

Like it or not, the global economy is real. As my compadre Gus stated above, vote with your wallets where the choice presents itself. As long as you are satisfied with the products and services you pay for then it's a good deal.

As for me, I will continue to buy American where and when I can but I will try not to let myself look askance at those who choose differently.
 
Wow, not even a nod to the British? (Let alone any other European nation with an established tradition of slipjoint manufacture...)

Aw, heck, sure. I just don't own any slippies that were made outside of the USA or Germany.
 
As someone who owns one of the AGR traditional knives made overseas I've looked at this thread multiple times and had many different lines of thought go through my head. There are a few things that crystallized.

#1 - China is the hot button part of the whole discussion for a lot of people. STeven's original post did not single out China as being worse than any other country as the place of manufacture for a knife. He just wants this style of knife to be made in the USA. Still, I think if these knives were made in Japan, Europe, or South America there wouldn't be near the same kind of gut reaction that there has been for a lot folks because China is at or near the top of the current political & economic enemies list for them. In another 10 or 20 years the wind could be blowing in a different direction.

#2 - I'm just personally tired of dragging the political and economic merits of various countries into the act of owning, trading, and discussing knives. Whatever effect it has always seems to be to suck the fun out of it, and that's what knives largely are for me - fun, something to look at and talk about that gets my mind off of whatever else is going on in "real life." Maybe some will say that the business of where knives are made and where the money goes is part of that real life and I'm just sticking my head in the sand to skip over it. That's fine. We can all choose to invest our energy and draw lines on what we will and won't buy for these reasons on different fronts. I'm not doing it with knives anymore.

#3 - I would much rather support a quality knife that is the product of quality people whose word I trust (such as A.G.) and have it be made in another country than to search out an American made equivalent and, in the case of some companies, take a flyer that the quality will match my expectations and give me value for my money. I went down that road a little while ago and came up disappointed. I will take my business to where the best knives that interest me are.
 
This is passionate topic of mine. I will only buy made in the U.S.A products, unless there is no other choice. Sadly it is getting harder to do so by the day. If one looks hard enough though plenty of USA made stuff is still out there.
I know a lot materials and goods never were made here and never will be either. Sambar stag, elephant ivory, scotch and green tea to name a few.

I don't own any imported knives or firearms and don't plan on it (unless I hit the lottery, then maybe a Holland double or two, maybe a Purdey). But I know some of the materials are not of USA origin.I want to support my own country not some other.



Patrick
 
STeven, why would you think of putting me on your "ignore" list ? Please explain. I have made no derogatory comments about you. Is it simply that you don't like to have your beliefs challenged ?
And, sincerely, thank you for offering to send me a made in U.S.A. knife. If you really want to, i will graciously accept. However i don't really 'need' another U.S.A. knife. I alreay have about 2500-3000 U.S.A. knives: folders and fixed blades, vintage and current production, and all of my approximately 150 Customs were made by American knifemakers.

Roland, it is not a matter of having my beliefs challenged....you should know better than that. It is the propensity to tout the global economy. I simply don't see anything good about a global economy.

You have a lot of knives, but maybe one more wouldn't be a bad thing.

You know, all of my purchased (production) slipjoints are of U.S. manufacture, and all of my custom slipjoints (but one by the supremely talented Ryuichi Kawamura) are made by U.S. makers.

......I try not to let that love of country stop me from embracing reality or the fundamental humanity and dignity of other countries and cultures.

Like it or not, the global economy is real.

As for me, I will continue to buy American where and when I can but I will try not to let myself look askance at those who choose differently.

Elliott, I might not be your favorite person right now, but we are MOSTLY on the same page......I fail to see the fundamental humanity in the Chinese Government or their ownership of most factories in China....and I don't want to support it. That is my choice.

I don't look at anyone who has nothing but a collection of Chinese made knives as any different than any other collector, and this thread was not about slamming A.G. for making his business decisions....it was simply about a discussion.

I'll say what I think, plainly based upon what I know about materials and costing. I think it would have been a great effort and extremely expensive for A.G. to have the knives produced in the USA out of stainless steel frames, similar handle materials and 154 cpm steel, and the retail price would have been somewhere north of $275.00, and that cuts out a lot of potential buyers....and the profit margin would not have been as great.

Less knives sold+less profit margin=less of a reason to go U.S. made......IF it had been me, I would have made the decision to go U.S. made anyway....and it is something I have been thinking about a lot these days.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Steven, first off my remarks were not directed toward or at you so you are using my post out of context by quoting me above your remarks vis a vis the Chinese government and its policies.
(As though I somehow made some tacit endorsement.) Nor did I imply (in my post) any viewpoint regarding your position on A.G.'s business decisions or how you perceive other collectors.

I made no statement or inference about any foreign government and if one were to take my former occupation into consideration, it'd probably be fair to assume that I have a little (inside) perspective on that topic. (However, that is not germane here.)

Whether you and I are mostly on the same page or not is not the issue here. I support your right to choose as I would that of anyone else. Our issue was simply the fact that this particular matter is not fodder for the "Traditional" forum. Been there, done that and it's not something we care to hash out there.

I would have much preferred that you post your remarks without somehow dragging me into it as it conveys a wholly wrong impression.
 
I would have much preferred that you post your remarks without somehow dragging me into it as it conveys a wholly wrong impression.

1. The original comments that I made when this post was started were amended.

2. You asked me not to PM, telephone or e-mail you, so my options for communication are limited, and you posted in this thread, so I responded.

3. I think you are reading far more into my quote than what was intended or stated. You made a statement saying that you would not look askance at those who choose to purchase Chinese knives, and I worked with that.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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Based on the way they look I would be very interested in these knives. However, for me, made in China is a dealbreaker. I will never buy one. It would be nice if Mr. Russell could use his position to help American knife manufacturers.
 
1. The original comments that I made when this post was started were amended.

2. You asked me not to PM, telephone or e-mail you, so my options for communication are limited, and you posted in this thread, so I responded.

3. I think you are reading far more into my quote than what was intended or stated. You made a statement saying that you would not look askance at those who choose to purchase Chinese knives, and I worked with that.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

1. And had you limited yourself to the bolded area quoted above I'd probably not have much of an issue. However, I was not comfortable with allowing the wrong impression to be left with other forum members concerning my own personal point of view on the subject of foreign regimes (since I hadn't addressed that topic).

2. You will also see that my original post in this thread was amended after I saw that certain comments were removed.

3. Now, please feel free to put me on "ignore".
 
Quote Stelth: "It would be nice if Mr. Russell could use his position to help American knife manufacturers"
Go to the AGR website. There are thousands of USA made knives there, Custom and Production. Mr. Russell is quite obviously a BIG supporter of U.S.A. knifemakers and U.S.A. businesses.
Your statement must be based on no knowledge of his business and is completely unfair to Mr. Russell.
roland
 
My statement is my personal assessment based on the ever increasing number of chinese products I see in the Russell catalog.
 
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