About the hate for Survive! Knives.

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Quiet said:
Hell, if he returned his knife for a cosmetic issue, they'd probably sell it to someone else, then tell him he's in the pipeline the next time they run those...in another six years. 🤣
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Not too far from the truth.
Macchina said:
That was me with the 4.7 that I sent in and though they said they could find nothing wrong with it they wanted to "keep it for testing" and replace it for me.
I finally received a replacement GSO 6 in May after almost 3 years!
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io333 said:
Original poster here. I didn't realize this thread kept going, email didn't notify me. I have to go back and read what was posted, but haven't yet, will in a minute.

Lots of good points in the thread, until I lost track, a lot of things I didn't know about previously dealings.

But here is my thought now:

About him aking people's money up front to pay for personal expenses, and needing constant supply of new orders to build past orders.

Well so what? Isn't that how so many businesses are run? Isn't that what Social Security is doing, don't giant corporations do the same thing with bond sales, stock sales, isn't that just one normal way of doing business these days?
How else is someone without large capital supposed to get something off the ground? Do you think any bank would have given him a loan to start a knife company? Hahahahahahaha. Undercapitalization is the #1 reason for a business failing, or at least it used to be, and banks don't loan out to new businesses. This person was obviously undercapitalized, but instead of letting the business fail, has kept at it and has delivered. He has a list of where they are in production and they've been slamming out huge numbers of orders in the last six months. I think the business has a good chance of making it. There are actually in stock knives listed on the web page frequently now.

OK now I will go back and read what I missed, and steel myself to get slammed again.



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Yes, all businesses start with 6 year interest free loans! :thumbsup:
 
danbot said:
Yes, all businesses start with 6 year interest free loans! :thumbsup:
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Lots of billionaires started with interest free loans from their wealthy parents. It's pretty hard for a regular joe to start a new business and become wealthy, without wealthy parents. The system isn't set up that way. Some argue it's designed that way.
 
io333 said:
Lots of billionaires started with interest free loans from their wealthy parents. It's pretty hard for a regular joe to start a new business and become wealthy, without wealthy parents. The system isn't set up that way. Some argue it's designed that way.
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Oh. So you were under the impression that you were giving them a long term, interest free loan when you pre-ordered?
Good of them to be so up front with you from the start! :thumbsup:
 
danbot said:
Oh. So you were under the impression that you were giving them a long term, interest free loan when you pre-ordered?
Good of them to be so up front with you from the start! :thumbsup:
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I agree. the difference between a ponzi scheme and a loan is transparency.

I'm guessing not everyone who is waiting for a knife knew that they were giving Survive a loan? idk. I'm dumb.
 
io333 said:
Original poster here. I didn't realize this thread kept going, email didn't notify me. I have to go back and read what was posted, but haven't yet, will in a minute.

Lots of good points in the thread, until I lost track, a lot of things I didn't know about previously dealings.

But here is my thought now:

About him aking people's money up front to pay for personal expenses, and needing constant supply of new orders to build past orders.

Well so what? Isn't that how so many businesses are run? Isn't that what Social Security is doing, don't giant corporations do the same thing with bond sales, stock sales, isn't that just one normal way of doing business these days?
How else is someone without large capital supposed to get something off the ground? Do you think any bank would have given him a loan to start a knife company? Hahahahahahaha. Undercapitalization is the #1 reason for a business failing, or at least it used to be, and banks don't loan out to new businesses. This person was obviously undercapitalized, but instead of letting the business fail, has kept at it and has delivered. He has a list of where they are in production and they've been slamming out huge numbers of orders in the last six months. I think the business has a good chance of making it. There are actually in stock knives listed on the web page frequently now.

OK now I will go back and read what I missed, and steel myself to get slammed again.



.
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What? Actually, no. This is bad, on so many levels. It's especially bad for a small business to be run this way, because it means that this company is selling products that A. don't exist and B. they can't actually make until they sell a knife to someone else, because they took the money you paid them to have your knife made, and used it to pay their bills instead. No company who runs this way will ever find themselves "catching up" because the model will always depend on them bringing in new preorders (also known as vaporware). So what happens when those preorders dry up? If S?K stopped getting paid-up-front preorders tomorrow, they wouldn't be able to make ANY of those knives they still owe people, that is a fact. Now, do you see why that's a bad way to run a business?

And look, there are a ton of small knife companies out there who have been able to create and grow a business without doing this. Many of the companies you see us discussing here every day are small businesses. Rick Hinderer, Emerson, Spyderco, Buck, the list goes on. Somehow those small companies are able to make knives, sell them, and continue to make new designs, and sell those (and actually get knives into peoples' hands!!!!!!!!) without resorting to these shady business practices.
 
io333 said:
Lots of billionaires started with interest free loans from their wealthy parents. It's pretty hard for a regular joe to start a new business and become wealthy, without wealthy parents. The system isn't set up that way. Some argue it's designed that way.
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There's a reason why things like Kickstarter exist- most people don't want to fund someone else's business venture.
Kickstarter is great- you know up front what the risks are and it gives you an opportunity to help someone with a good idea.
S!K didn't use Kickstarter- they're just incompetent and clowned good people into giving them money.
 
Quiet said:
What? Actually, no. This is bad, on so many levels. It's especially bad for a small business to be run this way, because it means that this company is selling products that A. don't exist and B. they can't actually make until they sell a knife to someone else, because they took the money you paid them to have your knife made, and used it to pay their bills instead. No company who runs this way will ever find themselves "catching up" because the model will always depend on them bringing in new preorders (also known as vaporware). So what happens when those preorders dry up? If S?K stopped getting paid-up-front preorders tomorrow, they wouldn't be able to make ANY of those knives they still owe people, that is a fact. Now, do you see why that's a bad way to run a business?

And look, there are a ton of small knife companies out there who have been able to create and grow a business without doing this. Many of the companies you see us discussing here every day are small businesses. Rick Hinderer, Emerson, Spyderco, Buck, the list goes on. Somehow those small companies are able to make knives, sell them, and continue to make new designs, and sell those (and actually get knives into peoples' hands!!!!!!!!) without resorting to these shady business practices.
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Doesn't Tesla take money up front for cars to be built six months or more in the future? I'm not sure, but that was my impression when I was looking into maybe getting a Tesla.
 
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danbot said:
Oh. So you were under the impression that you were giving them a long term, interest free loan when you pre-ordered?
Good of them to be so up front with you from the start! :thumbsup:
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I recall, and it was a long time ago - but I recall thinking I'd get the knife in about six months or so.


ETA: and I also remember (and memory is often faulty) thinking that it was a very new company, and to some extent I was helping to finance their new venture. That's what I remember anyway.

ETA2: and was it really interest free if the same knife is now $300, but I paid $230? I guess that's a semantics question.
 
io333 said:
Doesn't Tesla take money up front for cars to be built six months or more in the future? I'm not sure, but that was my impression when I was looking into maybe getting a Tesla.
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No, like most car manufacturers and dealers, they take a down payment or deposit. This is what's usually considered a "good faith" down payment. And actually, Randall Made Knives does this. They tell you up front that it's going to be years before you see your knife, and they charge you $50 up front as a "good faith" down payment on that knife. You'll notice the part where I said "they tell you up front". S?K has NEVER been forthcoming with their absurd wait times, and in fact, eventually had to change the wording in their emails, on their website, and in their posts here on Bladeforums after a bunch of people pointed out that their comments about you getting your knife "in a few months" from date of order was not only not true, it had never been true. They changed it, because they are scumbag grifters who were trying to minimize the avenues people could use to get their money back en masse. You should have seen Ellie sweating and stammering in her comments back when whole threads were getting posted, full of people who were asking for their money back. It was glorious.
 
kane22 said:
If that's really what you think, I bet you'll be happily surprised. Do I wish they would do things differently when it comes to taking orders and wait times...yes. I'd put their finished product up against anyone else's though.
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Yeah.. it was pretty thought out. I think they're garbage at business. As to the quality of the knife.. that remains to be seen (pun intended).

I'm of the mind that most of the quality in that product is the HT. Peter is a magician.. I wouldn't be surprised if it is decent. I stand by what I said though; I sincerely doubt; it's of the quality of knife the small of companies I listed above put out regularly.. no headache as another user stated above.

I don't collect trash.. I will determine whether or not it meets the level of quality they get touted as having by beating the dogshit out of it. I think it's hype to justify a purchase and long wait. I might be wrong, and can honestly be swayed to keep it if it performs.

I won't purchase a knife from them though..learned my lesson. Dude was deliberately shady when it came to doing business. I just happened upon one, and as I said. I reaallly doubt it staying. Who knows? I don't.
 
io333 said:
Doesn't Tesla take money up front for cars to be built six months or more in the future? I'm not sure, but that was my impression when I was looking into maybe getting a Tesla.
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6 months vs 6 years. Same thing, right guys? Also you are very wrong. I would stop talking about things I don't know about. 30 seconds worth of a Google search and you could have found this out.

Screenshot_20220713-093937_Chrome.jpg
 
Quiet said:
No, like most car manufacturers and dealers, they take a down payment or deposit. This is what's usually considered a "good faith" down payment. And actually, Randall Made Knives does this. They tell you up front that it's going to be years before you see your knife, and they charge you $50 up front as a "good faith" down payment on that knife. You'll notice the part where I said "they tell you up front". S?K has NEVER been forthcoming with their absurd wait times, and in fact, eventually had to change the wording in their emails, on their website, and in their posts here on Bladeforums after a bunch of people pointed out that their comments about you getting your knife "in a few months" from date of order was not only not true, it had never been true. They changed it, because they are scumbag grifters who were trying to minimize the avenues people could use to get their money back en masse. You should have seen Ellie sweating and stammering in her comments back when whole threads were getting posted, full of people who were asking for their money back. It was glorious.
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OK I see you are correct about Tesla. At least now. Not sure why I thought that. Hmmm. I wonder if they ever did it that way?
 
io333 said:
I recall, and it was a long time ago - but I recall thinking I'd get the knife in about six months or so.


ETA: and I also remember (and memory is often faulty) thinking that it was a very new company, and to some extent I was helping to finance their new venture. That's what I remember anyway.

ETA2: and was it really interest free if the same knife is now $300, but I paid $230? I guess that's a semantics question.
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That would be a reasonable assumption.
 
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