Another Paypal Discussion

I see alot of people complain about Paypal and how they have been 'ripped off'. Of course they have also never bothered to read the rules for using their service. No one forces you to use them and I don't see why some people feel that any company, small or large, should need to work for free. They charge a small percentage for transferring funds 2-3% on average, that's 2-3 bucks on every hundred, big deal . You could also go fetch a money order and spend the money on gas, postage and signature delivery and the hassle of driving all over for the same thing that would take you 60 seconds on the interwebz. I'll happily pay the 3 or 6 bucks not to have to stand in line forever at the post office. Your going to pay a little over 7 anyway for priority mail/signature delivery.

I've used Paypal since they opened their virtual doors and I have had my fair share of idiots, buyers remorse, dishonest people and just plain scammers. By selling anything on the internet you need to accept a certain amount of risk and liability.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
(This guy, squam1, is an ace to deal with anyway.)
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With all due respect, Esav, so am I. And part of the reason for that is that I refuse to charge people I do business with more than I have to.

I agree completely that PayPal provides conveniences . . . conveniences that are well worth the money. But please explain the fairness in charging my customers, overtly or covertly, for using those conveniences if we both agree not to take advantage of them. Marking up the price of my goods 3- to 4-percent to cover the possibility that PayPal may be used to pay for them might not sound like a lot, but that's not the point. It's the principle of the thing. How dare PayPal tell me that I have to charge my customers more to cover their fees if I don't use their service?
 
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bld522 said:
I agree completely that PayPal provides conveniences . . . conveniences that are well worth the money. But please explain how its fair for me to charge people, overtly or covertly, for using those conveniences if we both agree not to take advantage of them. :confused:
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Because you, the seller, are supposed to pay the fees. When you charge extra for Paypal, you are passing your responsibility to the buyer for your convenience. If you include it in the price, that's the price you want, regardless of whether there's fees or not. You don't want to charge your customers extra? Don't, just pay the couple of bucks. Seriously, I can probably pick up the amount your fees will be if I walk around a WalMart parking lot for a couple of minutes, I find it very unlikely that it's going to cause you any significant grief.
 
To paraphrase The Bard, extortion by any other name would smell as nasty.

Here's my position. If I insist that my customers use PayPal, then I should pay the fees. If I don't and my customers insist on using PayPal anyway, then they should pay the fees. And if neither of us want to use PayPal, neither of us should pay the fees. This isn't eBay where people are forced to use PayPal. This is Bladeforums where people have (and should continue to have) choices and pay ONLY for the choices they make.
 
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If you can't keep your agreement with Paypal you need to stop using it.
Its that simple.
No one is making anyone use them.

I feel the service they offer is worth it, and I have no problem with their TOS. If I did I would stop using them and only take USPS money orders. I keep my word whether its a large company or an individual.
 
When you signed on to Paypal, you agreed to pay the fees associated with that service, you signed a contract. Part of that says the seller pays the fees, that makes it your responsibility. If you don't want to pay the fees you can say no, "I don't want to use Paypal" that is also your responsibility. You don't have to tack the fees onto the price in any way, you could just pay the couple of bucks like your supposed to.
 
Ken44 said:
If you can't keep your agreement with Paypal you need to stop using it.
Its that simple.
No one is making anyone use them.

I feel the service they offer is worth it, and I have no problem with their TOS. If I did I would stop using them and only take USPS money orders. I keep my word whether its a large company or an individual.
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I understand your position, Ken. I just don't agree with it. Playing fair is more important to me than keeping my word to honor a rule that doesn't make sense and isn't justified. That may upset some folks' sensibilities, but so far I haven't had a single customer complain about it. What's just as unscrupulous as not paying the fees is when sellers bake them into their selling prices and then keep them even if PayPal isn't used to make payment. Where's the integrity in doing that?
 
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I will be doing the same......Everyone adds shipping cost into their price, so just add the 3% also.
Metal Made Fox said:
I used to accept both gift and goods but would require the seller to add 3% if using goods. Recently I manned up and will now not be accepting gift nor will I ask the buyer to pay the fees either. I realized that it is the seller's responsibility to pay the fees and that it's BS when a seller asks you to pay the fees.

So from now on any sales thread you see that belongs to me will never say "add 3% for goods" again.
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bld522 said:
I understand your position, Ken. I just don't agree with it. Playing fair is more important to me than keeping my word to honor a rule that doesn't make sense and isn't justified. That may upset some folks' sensibilities, but so far I haven't had a single customer complain about it. What's just as unscrupulous as not paying the fees is when sellers bake them into their selling prices and then keep them even if PayPal isn't used to make payment. Where's the integrity in doing that?
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While I agree with the last bit (e.g. sellers keeping the diff even when they don't use PP), I have to say that I don't see what you're basing the assertion that the fee isn't justified on. They offer a service and they charge an upfront fee. Its not like you have no idea that they were charging you.
 
I bought at least 3 knives on the exchange here before I became a Gold member and started selling and honestly didn't do really any transactions via PayPal between myself and an individual prior to my time at BF so honestly never looked at the PayPal rules. 2 of those knives I bought were via the gift option, and I studied the seller's feedback thoroughly before making the decision. Both luckily happened to be great guys. When I started selling, I listed all my ads as gift or add 3.5% because I honestly thought that was the norm seeing that on the vast majority of ads I look at. Hell, I've got a couple in my sig that are listed that way. Now that I've seen in this thread how it's actually frowned upon, I'll be changing my selling terms from now on. I've now seen the error of my ways though most everything I've sold here has been negotiated to where I'd pay the fees and now glad that I did. I'm sure I've unknowingly missed out on buyers for items because I've had those terms listed. I repent! :)
 
Since it seems that not everyone reads PayPal's terms of service / policies, thought I would insert this here. A Terms of Service/Policy update will take effect on 15 May. Not many huge changes in my mind, however here are a couple minor updates that everyone who sells and accepts payment via PayPal should know:

11.4 Proof of Shipment, Proof of Delivery and Signature Confirmation Requirements.

"Proof of Shipment" is online or physical documentation from a shipping company that includes all of the following:

The date the item is shipped.
The recipient’s address matches the shipping address on the Transaction Details Page.
The recipient's address, showing at least the city & province, or city & country or postal code (or international equivalent).

"Proof of Delivery" is online documentation from a shipping company that includes all of the following:

The date the item is delivered.
The item’s status as delivered.
The recipient’s address matches the shipping address on the Transaction Details Page.
The recipient's address, showing at least the city & province, or city & country or postal code (or international equivalent).
Signature Confirmation as described below if the full amount of the payment, including shipping and taxes, is $750 USD, or its foreign currency equivalent.

"Signature Confirmation" is online documentation that can be viewed at the shipping company’s website and indicates that the item was signed for on delivery.


Also, for those who US sellers who sell and ship to the UK:

Section 11.1 is being amended to reflect that U.S. Sellers who sell an item to buyers in the U.K. will be subject to the U.K. buyer protection rules which may have greater coverage for buyers. The revised Section 11.1 reads as follows:

11.1 PayPal Seller Protection.
PayPal Seller protection is protection we provide Sellers from Claims, Chargebacks, or Reversals that are based on:

Unauthorized Transaction or
Item Not Received

PayPal Seller protection is available for eligible payments from buyers in any country. When a U.S. seller sells an item to a U.K. buyer, the U.K. buyer protection rules will apply to that transaction.

Section 11 of the User Agreement currently requires that sellers obtain signature confirmation for transactions of $250 USD or more in order for a transaction to be eligible for Seller protection for an Item Not Received Claim. That Section also currently includes a table for the corresponding foreign equivalency amount. This section will be changed to increase the dollar amount required for signature confirmation from $250 USD to $750 USD, and the foreign equivalency amounts are also being increased.

Anyway, thought this was worth posting. And yes .... I am the type of person who reads a vehicle owner's manual cover to cover before driving a new car!!!
 
Just went through the for sale section nice to see a few PayPal goods only please. Some people are getting the message of course not everyone still see a few gift only. And my new one I hate the mysterious net to me' but I guess that's a start.
 
ooitzoo said:
While I agree with the last bit (e.g. sellers keeping the diff even when they don't use PP), I have to say that I don't see what you're basing the assertion that the fee isn't justified on. They offer a service and they charge an upfront fee. Its not like you have no idea that they were charging you.
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PayPal says that if you accept PayPal as a payment option, they have a right to be paid for every transaction. Now if PayPal is used to pay for something, they've earned their fee and I agree that they should be paid. If PayPal is NOT used to pay for something, however, they have not earned their fee. So should they be paid just because they say they should? You tell me.
 
bld522 said:
PayPal says that if you accept PayPal as a payment option, they have a right to be paid for every transaction. Now if PayPal is used to pay for something, they've earned their fee and I agree that they should be paid. If PayPal is NOT used to pay for something, however, they have not earned their fee. So should they be paid just because they say they should? You tell me.
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If PayPal is "NOT" used, the entire issue never comes up.
 
I don't understand..are people paying Paypal when not using PayPal or something? This doesn't make any sense at all. I sold a knife to a guy not on BF a couple weeks ago and he wanted to pay with a money order. I didn't ask for an additional 3% and why would anyone??
 
Unless PayPal has changed their TOS, if you accept PayPal, you may not offer or provide a cash discount to someone who chooses not to use PayPal to pay for an item. Admittedly it's been awhile since I've reviewed PayPal's TOS. So it's possible that rule no longer exists. If it doesn't, I'd be pleasantly surprised.
 
bld522 said:
Unless PayPal has changed their TOS, if you accept PayPal, you may not offer or provide a cash discount to someone who chooses not to use PayPal to pay for an item. Admittedly it's been awhile since I've reviewed PayPal's TOS. So it's possible that rule no longer exists. If it doesn't, I'd be pleasantly surprised.
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So me, not being a business, if I wanted to sell my baseball card collection to my friend in another city, and I say to him "Hey, if you want to mail me a check that's cool, or if you'd like to pay me via PayPal goods I'll be glad to do that for you also." and he says "Nah, I don't need your baseball cards right away, I'll just mail this check, I can wait." So you're saying because I told him I'd be willing to take his money via Paypal, by some mystic power of the socialist universe, I owe Paypal 2.9% plus $0.30 of my selling price to him?? :confused:
 
bld522 said:
Unless PayPal has changed their TOS, if you accept PayPal, you may not offer or provide a cash discount to someone who chooses not to use PayPal to pay for an item. Admittedly it's been awhile since I've reviewed PayPal's TOS. So it's possible that rule no longer exists. If it doesn't, I'd be pleasantly surprised.
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I can't find anything like that in the current PP TOS. Maybe you can help.

I did find this interesting language abut Purchase Protection:

13.3 Ineligible Items. PayPal Purchase Protection only applies to PayPal payments for certain tangible, physical goods. Payments for the following are not eligible for reimbursement under PayPal Purchase Protection:
• Intangible items, including Digital Goods
• Services
• Real estate, including residential property
• Businesses
• Vehicles, including motor vehicles, motorcycles, caravans, aircraft and boats
• Custom-made items
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[emphasis added]
 
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