Another Paypal Discussion

[RevDevil]

Any threads in General Knife Discussion relating to Paypal would get moved here anyway.

Maybe a simple rule..
If you use Paypal Gift and get screwed, Don't ask the Mods for help..

I honestly like the sound of that, and is exactly what I had previously suggested. My version was worded a little harsher though.

Agreed. It will almost be impossible to police pms and emails with transactions amongst members negotiaing with the gift option.

We would not even try at that point, that is what many folks are afraid of. That it would put an excessive and undue burden on the mods. I don't think it would though. Making a simple declaration of placing responsibility on the buyer to use Paypal as intended and a warning if used otherwise their protection becomes void on their decision. That is basically what is in the rules now. Just very briefly stated.

I agree with this...maybe a simple extra line in the seller section stating that PP gift is not to be used in any way will suffice. Most of sellers read the rules. The mods should not waste too much time and most of the exchange regarding this new rule will self control by the buyers themselves.

Wait... on this forum? Really?
I'd hope more people would try and have some understanding of how to protect themselves when buying stuff online, but it seems there are a large number of people that seem to think that we are their buyer protection.

 

[Pellel2]

I feel most buyers are just too new to really know what's going on. Most sellers have been here way longer than buyers. How many times do you buyers with zero feedback and brand new to the forums buying knives? How many times have you seen sellers with zero feedback and brand new to the forums selling knives? I honestly truly believe if you put the rules and burden on the sellers all these problems will never happen. This thread has taught me a lot and I really appreciate all what you guys have wrote and clarify here.

 

[RevDevil]

I agree with you Pellel, and appreciate that you and folks do care enough about the community to voice their opinions good or otherwise. :thumbup:

 

[hhmoore]

Since this interaction I've Pm'd a BF member I bought something from today, just to make sure. I sent him 34 dollars with "I'm paying for good or services" and my linked checking acct. He received 34 dollars. No Fees. No Fraud.

I'm not finding anything that confirms this. There are some rate schedules that result in lower than expected fees, officially for sellers that sell mostly inexpensive items; but, per PayPal, fees are charged to recipients regardless of payment methods (friends&family/gift is free, if drawn from PayPal balance or bank account).

 

[Skystorm]

In my view, any seller that asks to be paid by the gift option is already dishonest, they are violating the terms they already agreed to by signing up with Paypal. Since they do not care about rules they have already agreed to then it's probably safe to say they do not care about whether you receive what you paid for. They simply want your money and wish to absolve themselves of any responsibility after they have it.

Remember, you have zero buyer protection when using the gift option. Lost in the mail? Too bad. Seller didn't ship? Too bad, sucks to be you. Asking for payment by gift option should be banned from the exchange, it is a deceitful selling practice and increases the likelihood of problem sellers.

 

[Kowan]

It is a matter of honor for me. If I am sending money to a charity or a friend I use the gift option. If I am buying something from someone I use "goods." I will not lie to PayPal or anyone else regarding the nature of a transaction. That is not being self-righteous. It is about being honest and having integrity.

Well said. If you compromise on small things, how much more easy is to justify it on things of greater importance.

 

[jbass]

Well said. If you compromise on small things, how much more easy is to justify it on things of greater importance.

Exactly!

 

[Greykilt]

I'll send a money order. If the knife doesn't arrive, no worries. Grey will come and get it. Be thee ware of who ye see through thine peephole, darlin....

 

[JCP1969]

I'd vote in a poll , if it could be locked from discussion. In a larger setting as well.
with a link to this thread for discussion or education.
I think it is great some people are schooled enough to know what they are doing.
Problem is some people aren't.
I have certain expectations for a community to help guide me with what I don't know. That is what got me here.
If the PP issue is a trend I think eventually something will have to change.
Stickies help when you don't think you have a clue. I'm not that humble.



In the end. Sparks House and Sparks Rules.

 

[Greykilt]

In my view, any seller that asks to be paid by the gift option is already dishonest, they are violating the terms they already agreed to by signing up with Paypal. Since they do not care about rules they have already agreed to then it's probably safe to say they do not care about whether you receive what you paid for. They simply want your money and wish to absolve themselves of any responsibility after they have it.

Remember, you have zero buyer protection when using the gift option. Lost in the mail? Too bad. Seller didn't ship? Too bad, sucks to be you. Asking for payment by gift option should be banned from the exchange, it is a deceitful selling practice and increases the likelihood of problem sellers.

Hello Skystorm,
Some of your work is on my belt. You are the master.

I agree with all said but I do not agree with banning or regulating choices. I'm not entirely convinced that it is BF job to determine morality or ethics decisions between members, users, and individuals. It feels like there is this implied 'forced to do' faction. If you want a Benchmade or a Busse or a Chris Reeves or etc. You can simply go to that dedicated website and purchase it with a credit card and if dissatisfied your CC certainly has consumer satisfaction options. Now if you want it cheaper than offered private sale of a used product might be your option of choice but you get to make that choice and if you want it then you are bound by the sellers terms. If you don't like the terms then don't purchase. Done. I'm buying a knife right know with a money order. If it doesn't arrive then I will exercise my options that I have in place to protect myself. (Hee Hee Hee, Monster) Private Sale is a privilege and if a member wants to use his privilege who am I to interfere. Rules are NOT law. There is no PayPal law enforcement agency. Does BF need to fill that role? There is way too much interchange of the terms 'rules' & 'laws'. If you 'gift' someone for an actual 'goods purchase' well shame on you, bad boy. Is it BF's job to sanction that? Do we next slap cigarettes out of each others hands, too? There bad for ya. Naughty boy....
The easist way to stop a practice is to stop practicing it. You ever drive by a new restaurant and see just a few cars parked in the lot? Several weeks of that go by and one day a for sale sign goes up in the window. If you want to shut it down then don't patronize it. No customers = no product. But again I really do not need a Moderator to instruct me on morality. Dont you think they have enough to do?
Perhaps that should go into the Membership Agreement we all have to agree to, maybe the last line could read:
...now remember you musn't be naughty and cheat PayPal , a financial entity we have no ties to, out of their fees. Okay?...
Honestly, is that necessary? If I'm defrauded, dooped, swindled, cheated, etc. It will become my mission in life to sing it from the rooftops. As JCP states above I warn the community. When I buy from the BF exchange I read the users/sellers profile. I read his posts. I review his reviews. I PM other members who's judgement I trust. I really don't need a Moderator to hold my hand. Isn't that seatbelt alarm the most annoying thing to have in your new car? Well if you put the seatbelt on then you don't hear it anymore. At 59 I can put my own seatbelt on. I buried my Daddy two years ago. Savvy?...
(respectfully submitted with regards to every moderator on this forum. You too Son, love ya..)

 

[JCP1969]

Greykilt , if they did decide to make a change. Your membership agreement idea isn't a bad one.:thumbup:

 

[XEcko721]

Hello Skystorm,
Some of your work is on my belt. You are the master.

I agree with all said but I do not agree with banning or regulating choices. I'm not entirely convinced that it is BF job to determine morality or ethics decisions between members, users, and individuals. It feels like there is this implied 'forced to do' faction. If you want a Benchmade or a Busse or a Chris Reeves or etc. You can simply go to that dedicated website and purchase it with a credit card and if dissatisfied your CC certainly has consumer satisfaction options. Now if you want it cheaper than offered private sale of a used product might be your option of choice but you get to make that choice and if you want it then you are bound by the sellers terms. If you don't like the terms then don't purchase. Done. I'm buying a knife right know with a money order. If it doesn't arrive then I will exercise my options that I have in place to protect myself. (Hee Hee Hee, Monster) Private Sale is a privilege and if a member wants to use his privilege who am I to interfere. Rules are NOT law. There is no PayPal law enforcement agency. Does BF need to fill that role? There is way too much interchange of the terms 'rules' & 'laws'. If you 'gift' someone for an actual 'goods purchase' well shame on you, bad boy. Is it BF's job to sanction that? Do we next slap cigarettes out of each others hands, too? There bad for ya. Naughty boy....
The easist way to stop a practice is to stop practicing it. You ever drive by a new restaurant and see just a few cars parked in the lot? Several weeks of that go by and one day a for sale sign goes up in the window. If you want to shut it down then don't patronize it. No customers = no product. But again I really do not need a Moderator to instruct me on morality. Dont you think they have enough to do?
Perhaps that should go into the Membership Agreement we all have to agree to, maybe the last line could read:
...now remember you musn't be naughty and cheat PayPal , a financial entity we have no ties to, out of their fees. Okay?...
Honestly, is that necessary? If I'm defrauded, dooped, swindled, cheated, etc. It will become my mission in life to sing it from the rooftops. As JCP states above I warn the community. When I buy from the BF exchange I read the users/sellers profile. I read his posts. I review his reviews. I PM other members who's judgement I trust. I really don't need a Moderator to hold my hand. Isn't that seatbelt alarm the most annoying thing to have in your new car? Well if you put the seatbelt on then you don't hear it anymore. At 59 I can put my own seatbelt on. I buried my Daddy two years ago. Savvy?...
(respectfully submitted with regards to every moderator on this forum. You too Son, love ya..)

Can't agree more with everything that you said.....thumbs up!

 

[rodblder]

Hello Skystorm,
Some of your work is on my belt. You are the master.

I agree with all said but I do not agree with banning or regulating choices. I'm not entirely convinced that it is BF job to determine morality or ethics decisions between members, users, and individuals. It feels like there is this implied 'forced to do' faction. If you want a Benchmade or a Busse or a Chris Reeves or etc. You can simply go to that dedicated website and purchase it with a credit card and if dissatisfied your CC certainly has consumer satisfaction options. Now if you want it cheaper than offered private sale of a used product might be your option of choice but you get to make that choice and if you want it then you are bound by the sellers terms. If you don't like the terms then don't purchase. Done. I'm buying a knife right know with a money order. If it doesn't arrive then I will exercise my options that I have in place to protect myself. (Hee Hee Hee, Monster) Private Sale is a privilege and if a member wants to use his privilege who am I to interfere. Rules are NOT law. There is no PayPal law enforcement agency. Does BF need to fill that role? There is way too much interchange of the terms 'rules' & 'laws'. If you 'gift' someone for an actual 'goods purchase' well shame on you, bad boy. Is it BF's job to sanction that? Do we next slap cigarettes out of each others hands, too? There bad for ya. Naughty boy....
The easist way to stop a practice is to stop practicing it. You ever drive by a new restaurant and see just a few cars parked in the lot? Several weeks of that go by and one day a for sale sign goes up in the window. If you want to shut it down then don't patronize it. No customers = no product. But again I really do not need a Moderator to instruct me on morality. Dont you think they have enough to do?
Perhaps that should go into the Membership Agreement we all have to agree to, maybe the last line could read:
...now remember you musn't be naughty and cheat PayPal , a financial entity we have no ties to, out of their fees. Okay?...
Honestly, is that necessary? If I'm defrauded, dooped, swindled, cheated, etc. It will become my mission in life to sing it from the rooftops. As JCP states above I warn the community. When I buy from the BF exchange I read the users/sellers profile. I read his posts. I review his reviews. I PM other members who's judgement I trust. I really don't need a Moderator to hold my hand. Isn't that seatbelt alarm the most annoying thing to have in your new car? Well if you put the seatbelt on then you don't hear it anymore. At 59 I can put my own seatbelt on. I buried my Daddy two years ago. Savvy?...
(respectfully submitted with regards to every moderator on this forum. You too Son, love ya..)

well said

 

[RecalcitrantAmerican]

:thumbup: I agree with you as well brother GreyKilt. If a seller's terms aren't to your liking move on or PM/email to NEGOTIATE. We are mostly big boys/girls here and most of us can police our own actions. The last time I checked we are in a free market society. If you don't like a business don't give them your money. Man it must be hard going through life with so much anger and content in your hearts, simply move on to the honest guys. Like Me!

 

[XEcko721]

I wouldn't defend paypal. I'll give you guys an actual scenario. Ok someone buys a knife from me. They pay via pp goods n services. They receive a knife in mint condition (I always inspect the knife and make sure not to omit anything wrong with the knife prior to it's sale. Don't believe me...my feedbacks speak for itself.) The buyer carries the knife for a day and they scratch the clip. They file a claim through paypal stating that i didnt represent the knife accurately because of the scratch on the clip which they did. I provide paypal with detailed pictures of the knife sold which had no marks on the clip at all.
Paypal sides with the buyer of course (because the seller is always out to screw someone over.)Then paypal takes money from my account to refund to the lying buyer without my authorization. They also withold funds paid from me for something I sold because they've felt like it. I have no access to my own money for weeks pending
investigation. Short story I receive a knife back with a screwed up pocket clip, the buyer gets a test drive of the knife and they make me defalt on my financial responsibilities because they withold money without my authorization. Wheres my protection?

 

[JCP1969]

Thanks to the Mods who have been my seat belt alarm. Its annoying being given good sound advice but its helped / saved me. However , not everyone yells they need attention like I did. Until after the fact. I only stuck my foot in my mouth, some people risk a lot more.

I would be interest in whether a Poll done properly would be doable. In a broader forum. also a vote can be changeable.
All members included but taking it is not mandatory. Just to have as even a model of what members prefer. As a guide to sellers and buyers.
If we don't have a rule we should still have a sign with directions. Possibly make it a sticky ?

I don't have the time at the moment to take this on. If in the future I do. I would ask in tech if its feasible.. I will take time to vote in a Poll if one is created.

 

[bdmicarta]

My vote- sellers should give a price and not ask for payment of fees or gift payments. The times that I have investigated gift payments with my account it charged me the fee instead of the seller, so paypal seems to get their money either way. It's only a few percent, just add it to the price to make it easier for everybody. But OTOH if it is something that I want I don't mind adding the fee, I just feel that I'm being cheated a little bit by someone advertising a low price and then forcing me to add on additional payment.

There seem to be mostly enthusiasts on BF, but when you get to the sales forum there are a lot of people with gold memberships and very low post count. Those are the ones doing it only for the money. I wonder if they are the ones mostly asking for gift payments. I wonder how many sellers ask for gift payments in order to remove the paypal protection from the buyer, that would be pretty lowdown.

 

[markksr]

Thanks to the Mods who have been my seat belt alarm. Its annoying being given good sound advice but its helped / saved me. However , not everyone yells they need attention like I did. Until after the fact. I only stuck my foot in my mouth, some people risk a lot more.

I would be interest in whether a Poll done properly would be doable. In a broader forum. also a vote can be changeable.
All members included but taking it is not mandatory. Just to have as even a model of what members prefer. As a guide to sellers and buyers.
If we don't have a rule we should still have a sign with directions. Possibly make it a sticky ?

I don't have the time at the moment to take this on. If in the future I do. I would ask in tech if its feasible.. I will take time to vote in a Poll if one is created.

Poll has been ongoing since last year...

Should PayPal Gift Option be permitted for sales here at Bladeforums?

:thumbup:

 

[Thomas Linton]

:thumbup: I agree with you as well brother GreyKilt. If a seller's terms aren't to your liking move on or PM/email to NEGOTIATE. We are mostly big boys/girls here and most of us can police our own actions. The last time I checked we are in a free market society. If you don't like a business don't give them your money. Man it must be hard going through life with so much anger and content in your hearts, simply move on to the honest guys. Like Me!

So should we ignore the rules we already have in the Exchange? That would give an opportunity to "move on."

 

[chris975d]

I wouldn't defend paypal. I'll give you guys an actual scenario. Ok someone buys a knife from me. They pay via pp goods n services. They receive a knife in mint condition (I always inspect the knife and make sure not to omit anything wrong with the knife prior to it's sale. Don't believe me...my feedbacks speak for itself.) The buyer carries the knife for a day and they scratch the clip. They file a claim through paypal stating that i didnt represent the knife accurately because of the scratch on the clip which they did. I provide paypal with detailed pictures of the knife sold which had no marks on the clip at all.
Paypal sides with the buyer of course (because the seller is always out to screw someone over.)Then paypal takes money from my account to refund to the lying buyer without my authorization. They also withold funds paid from me for something I sold because they've felt like it. I have no access to my own money for weeks pending
investigation. Short story I receive a knife back with a screwed up pocket clip, the buyer gets a test drive of the knife and they make me defalt on my financial responsibilities because they withold money without my authorization. Wheres my protection?

I have seen this type scenario happen on more than one occasion, including one to myself directly. Not knife related, but electronics related. I sold a samsung smartphone online, buyer paid with PayPal goods option. Phone was in almost new condition. Buyer gets it, apparently attempts to "root/jailbreak it" (bypass the inbuilt operating system and install unsanctioned operating systems, for those of you not familiar with the process), screws that up completely to the point the phone is "bricked" (will not restart/boot up). Buyer files a claim with PayPal that I sent a defective item/significantly not as described, and paypal locks my account/seizes my funds until he returns the phone, and they return the fees to him. So end up with a phone that the buyer attempted to hack back in my possession, and no funds for it. Fortunately I knew enough on how to recover from that that I got it back operational, but the average non-geek wouldn't know that. And would be stuck with a paperweight because most smartphones now show a message on the power up screen such as "Rooted/Tampered/Warranty Voided" as soon as you root/jailbreak, rendering your manufacturers warranty void. So they'd be stuck.

I've also witnessed a friend selling a laptop on eBay. Perfectly functional, as I helped him back up the software and clear all his contents/factory restore it. Buyer bought it, and started a dispute shortly after receiving it saying "not functional/not as described". Returned it to my friend the seller. PayPal did the same process they did in my personal example above (this incident happened before my incident). Long story short, the buyer got the laptop, opened it, harvested the RAM out of it (my friend had upgraded the RAM to max capacity, which was advertised in the listing..back when RAM was much more expensive), and then claimed to paypal that the laptop was defective. My friend got scammed out of the RAM, with no real assistance from PayPal because he couldn't prove he sent it with the RAM modules installed.

PayPal GREATLY favors the buyer with their protection, and less so the seller. All they cared about before issuing the buyer a refund was that he returned...something...to me (and my friend). All the buyer has to do is enter a tracking number showing a package destined for the original seller. That's all paypal really goes off of to issue refunds...that the buyer has returned "something" to the seller, and they verify this by the buyer showing tracking/delivery of "a" package back to the seller.

Now, in fairness, I've been on the good end of PayPal FAR more times than the bad. But I've said all of this to show that the situation XEcko stated above could EASILY happen, as Paypal's "protection" HEAVILY favors the buyer. PayPals reps will even tell you that on the phone (they did me, at least). I was told that unless I video recorded the condition of the phone just prior to boxing, the boxing process, and the delivery to the carrier, AS WELL as the receiving and I boxing of the item upon its return to show that it didn't match the video of its condition before it left my hands, I really had no recourse unfortunately.

Now some of this may have changed in the past year and half since I was scammed (a few years further back for the friend with a laptop), but it does reinforce the point that PayPals protection isn't as good as they may claim, especially for the seller. You can even Google terms like "PayPal buyer scams" to see how other dishonest people have milked this potential loophole.