Another Paypal Discussion

chris975d said:
I have seen this type scenario happen on more than one occasion, including one to myself directly. Not knife related, but electronics related. I sold a samsung smartphone online, buyer paid with PayPal goods option. Phone was in almost new condition. Buyer gets it, apparently attempts to "root/jailbreak it" (bypass the inbuilt operating system and install unsanctioned operating systems, for those of you not familiar with the process), screws that up completely to the point the phone is "bricked" (will not restart/boot up). Buyer files a claim with PayPal that I sent a defective item/significantly not as described, and paypal locks my account/seizes my funds until he returns the phone, and they return the fees to him. So end up with a phone that the buyer attempted to hack back in my possession, and no funds for it. Fortunately I knew enough on how to recover from that that I got it back operational, but the average non-geek wouldn't know that. And would be stuck with a paperweight because most smartphones now show a message on the power up screen such as "Rooted/Tampered/Warranty Voided" as soon as you root/jailbreak, rendering your manufacturers warranty void. So they'd be stuck.

I've also witnessed a friend selling a laptop on eBay. Perfectly functional, as I helped him back up the software and clear all his contents/factory restore it. Buyer bought it, and started a dispute shortly after receiving it saying "not functional/not as described". Returned it to my friend the seller. PayPal did the same process they did in my personal example above (this incident happened before my incident). Long story short, the buyer got the laptop, opened it, harvested the RAM out of it (my friend had upgraded the RAM to max capacity, which was advertised in the listing..back when RAM was much more expensive), and then claimed to paypal that the laptop was defective. My friend got scammed out of the RAM, with no real assistance from PayPal because he couldn't prove he sent it with the RAM modules installed.

PayPal GREATLY favors the buyer with their protection, and less so the seller. All they cared about before issuing the buyer a refund was that he returned...something...to me (and my friend). All the buyer has to do is enter a tracking number showing a package destined for the original seller. That's all paypal really goes off of to issue refunds...that the buyer has returned "something" to the seller, and they verify this by the buyer showing tracking/delivery of "a" package back to the seller.

Now, in fairness, I've been on the good end of PayPal FAR more times than the bad. But I've said all of this to show that the situation XEcko stated above could EASILY happen, as Paypal's "protection" HEAVILY favors the buyer. PayPals reps will even tell you that on the phone (they did me, at least). I was told that unless I video recorded the condition of the phone just prior to boxing, the boxing process, and the delivery to the carrier, AS WELL as the receiving and I boxing of the item upon its return to show that it didn't match the video of its condition before it left my hands, I really had no recourse unfortunately.

Now some of this may have changed in the past year and half since I was scammed (a few years further back for the friend with a laptop), but it does reinforce the point that PayPals protection isn't as good as they may claim, especially for the seller. You can even Google terms like "PayPal buyer scams" to see how other dishonest people have milked this potential loophole.
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Completely feel your pain. Thats why it is frustrating to see people defend paypal. They totally screwed me over more than once and for what? Because it was a convenienece for me to use their service? They've conveniently and thoroughly screwed me over more than once financially. It is without question paypal only
protects the buyer and definitely favors them over the seller so why should I feel bad for cheating them of their 4%? I'm not saying that doing so is right what i'm saying is why should I make sure I don't screw them over when they've willingly and continually do it to me? Wheres my protection? In the end its a he said she said battle. Flat out I don't have any allegiance or interest to defend or protect paypal period.
 
XEcko721 said:
I wouldn't defend paypal. I'll give you guys an actual scenario. Ok someone buys a knife from me. They pay via pp goods n services. They receive a knife in mint condition (I always inspect the knife and make sure not to omit anything wrong with the knife prior to it's sale. Don't believe me...my feedbacks speak for itself.) The buyer carries the knife for a day and they scratch the clip. They file a claim through paypal stating that i didnt represent the knife accurately because of the scratch on the clip which they did. I provide paypal with detailed pictures of the knife sold which had no marks on the clip at all.
Paypal sides with the buyer of course (because the seller is always out to screw someone over.)Then paypal takes money from my account to refund to the lying buyer without my authorization. They also withold funds paid from me for something I sold because they've felt like it. I have no access to my own money for weeks pending
investigation. Short story I receive a knife back with a screwed up pocket clip, the buyer gets a test drive of the knife and they make me defalt on my financial responsibilities because they withold money without my authorization. Wheres my protection?
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Different topic but a fair question that might be discussed. How DOES the seller protect himself?

Is it better to use a credit card than PP?
 
Thomas Linton said:
Different topic but a fair question that might be discussed. How DOES the seller protect himself?

Is it better to use a credit card than PP?
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According to the Paypal agent I referenced in my above post, the only true way for a seller to protect themselves is to video record the condition of the item sold as they are packaging it up for shipping, and then dropping it off at their carrier. Being sure to focus in on any unique/distinguishing features, marks, or serial numbers (in my specific case). And even then, Paypal isn't going to directly assist the seller. They will instruct the seller to proceed with law enforcement officials and not Paypal directly, as they did me. Which is why I didn't pursue the issue against the buyer...not worth the time/money involved since I was fortunate enough to be able to repair my item.
 
chris975d said:
According to the Paypal agent I referenced in my above post, the only true way for a seller to protect themselves is to video record the condition of the item sold as they are packaging it up for shipping, and then dropping it off at their carrier. Being sure to focus in on any unique/distinguishing features, marks, or serial numbers (in my specific case). And even then, Paypal isn't going to directly assist the seller. They will instruct the seller to proceed with law enforcement officials and not Paypal directly, as they did me. Which is why I didn't pursue the issue against the buyer...not worth the time/money involved since I was fortunate enough to be able to repair my item.
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Point proven! Another witness guys! Thumbs up bro!
 
Thomas Linton said:
Different topic but a fair question that might be discussed. How DOES the seller protect himself?

Is it better to use a credit card than PP?
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I really believe this topic is an important one, and should have it's own discussion/thread. Start one up Thomas.
 
XEcko721 said:
Completely feel your pain. Thats why it is frustrating to see people defend paypal. They totally screwed me over more than once and for what? Because it was a convenienece for me to use their service? They've conveniently and thoroughly screwed me over more than once financially.
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I'm sorry .... but I don't see how "PayPal" is screwing anyone. Seems that most already know that PayPal protects the buyer from fraudulent transactions. That's good for buyers. Sellers get their money instantly. A pretty good deal for the miniscule fees imposed. In the examples shown in this thread where people feel screwed because a buyer has taken advantage of this PayPal protection .... it is the buyer screwing the seller, not PayPal. Seems you know that going into the game.

It is without question paypal only
protects the buyer and definitely favors them over the seller so why should I feel bad for cheating them of their 4%? I'm not saying that doing so is right what i'm saying is why should I make sure I don't screw them over when they've willingly and continually do it to me?
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Is this what we've become .... a society where cheating is acceptable as long as we feel we can justify it? And, by the way, US transaction fees are 2.9% +$.30.


Wheres my protection? In the end its a he said she said battle. Flat out I don't have any allegiance or interest to defend or protect paypal period.
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Solution is simple. Don't use PayPal. Ask for payment via check or money order. Two downsides .... you are not going to get your money right away and you will probably turn away potential buyers, resulting in a much longer listing time, depending on the particular item. Or ... you can use one of the many online escrow services for your sales .... however, you will find that the fees are considerably higher than what PayPal charges.
 
Thomas Linton said:
So should we ignore the rules we already have in the Exchange? That would give an opportunity to "move on." :eek:
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Not exactly the point Recal is making. No one is saying 'Break Rules'. This particular point is about the Forum having to police member transactions into a moral choice. I want the freedom to do the right thing. I don't feel I should have to be led into the bathroom and 'made' to lift the seat up while I potty. Big boys can do that all by themselves. This is Feedback not Political. And I agree a new "Protect the Seller" or "Cc or PayPal" thread might be aprapo.
Is it wrong to 'gift' a 'Purchase'? PayPal says Yes. Well then don't do it. It's wrong to do/say/post a lot of things. But and again BUT is that Blade Forums job to govern that? Because if the forum is going to set itself up as the moral majority of internet sales and services then we're gonna need a lot more Moderators. A whole lot more. Probably why that PayPal Gift poll never produced any results with its 79% "Ban Them!".
If you make a hard fast rule Who enforces it? A lot a man hours.
IMO it boils down to "You want this knife then pay this price." If I need a 27% gross margin and 4% in fees then add it all up and post that sales price. Hello? It ain't rocket science, fellas.
I WANT $250 for this knife, period. And then I the seller will take that $250 and pay my incurred fees because what I NEEDED was $225.
Many E Bayers and Professional Knifemakers have a business model. Those folks are self employed. They declare their earnings. They post Profit and Loss statements. They pay taxes. They have tax ID #'s. Is BF going to ascertain all that? Do we need to start filling out Vendor applications. Because first thing on the list is no more 'For Sale By Individuals'- Commercial Only. Then perhaps we can change the name to Blade Forums LLC and Sparks is now CEO but only if he posts his 2013 earnings statement.
At that point it's no longer Community it's Commerce. Again just an opinion but the joy of a flea market is the haggle. I should be able to buy what I want from who I want when I want how I want. I'm a deacon, a mason, a retired fed and a Granpa. I DO the right thing because I want to do the right thing. And if you don't feel comfortable with that then don't trade with me. Done.
But notice, and this is an earnest request, Please notice the threshold we stand upon. When you begin to delegate morality then you have to declare an allegiance to a cause and now the community is not thriving their being governed. That is not why I am here.
 
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Grizzley said:
I have bought and sold items using both the gift or goods option. I usually leave it to whatever the buyer or seller requests and is most comfortable with. I will work with whatever is agreeable to the person that I am doing business with although my personal preference is the "goods" option for payment. I have no problem covering someone's fees if I am purchasing something from them. Oftentimes, I am getting something I truly want at a great discount so I don't have a problem with covering fees for the seller.

And when it comes to buying something, if you don't like the way the seller is requesting payment of fee coverage or payment in general, how about PM'ing them and discussing your concerns with them first? I have sold items before and had members PM me to ask for adjustment of the sale terms and I have worked with them on a case by case basis until both of us were satisfied with the terms of the sale.

Maybe I am in the minority here, but if you don't like or trust the way an item is listed, maybe you should PM the seller first and see if they will adjust the terms of their sale rather than just not talking to them about it directly and then crying about it in a thread like this. You may find that people are very open to working with you.

Personally I do everything in my power to make sure people I sell to are 110% satisfied. I always cover 2 day priority shipping and insurance. I send the buyer their tracking number immediately upon printing their shipping label and I ship the next business day after payment posts if at all possible. And if I am discounting something like a 500 dollar knife by 150 bucks, covering shipping and insurance, and shipping fast, then I don't really feel bad about passing on a small transaction fee to the buyer. If they bought the item from an online retailer, paid full MSRP and shipping they would often pay CONSIDERABLY more. That being said, if you don't like the seller's terms, CONTACT THEM ABOUT IT AND SEE IF THEY WILL WORK OUT A SOLUTION TO YOUR LIKING. Many will do just that. I have and will if a buyer has concerns. Ultimately the total satisfaction of my buyers is of utmost importance to me.

At the end of the day, if you still don't like the sellers terms and just want to complain about it without talking to them about it, then it's certainly within your power to move on and ignore the seller and the item they have listed.

I apologize in advance for the rant, but having been on both sides of the fence, good buyer/seller communication and compromise usually will clear up any concerns that either party has.

Just my 2 cents.

-Griz
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This makes the most sense, to me. Why should anyone one this forum have the right to interfere with personal choice, either buyer or seller?
 
palmerdl said:
This makes the most sense, to me. Why should anyone one this forum have the right to interfere with personal choice, either buyer or seller?
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And that Sir, is the whole point. No more questions. The Defense Rests, Your Honor.
 
You guys should show your wives this thread and see what reaction they have hahaha I bet they will have the same as mine lol
 
Thanks Grey for the clarification on my point, thats exactly what I meant. Here is the MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION!!!! "IF THE GIFT TAB IS SO WRONG, THEN WHY DOES PAYPAL GIVE US THE OPTION OF USING IT IN THE FIRST PLACE?" If I bought from or sold to my brothers Greykilt, Eagally08, XEcko721, and many other trusted friends/brothers thats our choice and ours to do so. At the end of the year Uncle Sam is going to get us in taxes when our PayPal income is reported to the US Gov. OOPS! The big question is who is reporting their income???
 
I'm sure no one at the IRS is a member here and our government doesn't monitor chatter on forums. Goods and services are taxeable if I'm wrong and gifts are gifts..... I still pay my PayPal fee and Insured Shipping, but someone has to stir the pot.
 
RecalcitrantAmerican said:
Thanks Grey for the clarification on my point, thats exactly what I meant. Here is the MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION!!!! "IF THE GIFT TAB IS SO WRONG, THEN WHY DOES PAYPAL GIVE US THE OPTION OF USING IT IN THE FIRST PLACE?" If I bought from or sold to my brothers Greykilt, Eagally08, XEcko721, and many other trusted friends/brothers thats our choice and ours to do so. At the end of the year Uncle Sam is going to get us in taxes when our PayPal income is reported to the US Gov. OOPS! The big question is who is reporting their income???
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Excellent Point brother! Thumbs up!
 
I just got back from doing my taxes and one of the questions my guy asked was "PayPal Income?" Apparently this gets reported. Off topic, just a lil thing I found amusing and wanted to share with all my friends here.
 
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