Choil worries..bad design or for some reason?

[LEGION 12]

I guess you can only blame them the first time. Or first two?

Or better yet get a blade that you can safely handle I sold a Blackjack tac-ops because the handle was to small for my hands. I didn't repeatedly have to cut myself to know it just wasn't going to work for me not the Mfg's fault or the blades.

 

[craytab]

If someone keeps cutting themselves with a knife maybe they don't know how to use a knife properly. Is that a stretch to say?

Some good on topic advice is to learn how to use and hold the knife so as not to continue cutting ones self.

Exactly. I don't think it is a stretch at all. Especially given the complete lack of other information on the question.....Like....what knife is doing this? Maybe it is a bad design that could be causing this issue. The answer could be just that simple.

But if you continue to cut yourself with the same blade repeatedly you are doing something wrong I don't see how you can blame the knife the design or the Mfg.

It is hard to know without the information of what knife, what tasks, how is he holding the knife.

 

[KingMC]

A customer blamed McDonald's for having coffee that was too hot. Everyone knows coffee is supposed to be hot unless you like cold coffee.

To be fair, the coffee was hotter than it should've been, others had gotten burned badly by it (and filed complaints, over 500 if I remember correctly), she got 3rd-degree burns from it, and as soon as that lawsuit happened every fast food company (not just McD's) changed the standard temperature of their coffee by dropping it 20 degrees.

Sure, coffee is supposed to be hot, but she had a very valid case that everyone acknowledged was a big problem.

I don't think finger choils are that kind of problem, most knife users don't file lawsuits when they nick their fingers by not paying attention and grabbing too close to the edge of the blade.

 

[craytab]

Or better yet get a blade that you can safely handle I sold a Blackjack tac-ops because the handle was to small for my hands. I didn't repeatedly have to cut myself to know it just wasn't going to work for me not the Mfg's fault or the blades.

And it wasn't your fault either. Some people just have different needs, like different things, or have different opinions, which is totally fine and understandable. What isn't okay is to say an opinion as fact. IE finger choils are bad!

 

[RX-79G]

This is most likely an issue like "hammer bite" on semiauto pistols. An unmodified 1911, SIG P210 or BHP doesn't bite my hands, but enough people do have a problem to indicate that putting sharp things next to skin isn't a universal solution.

As Czechmate pointed out, this is a relatively new solution to a previously solved problem.

 

[AmosPaul]

Since you won't post pictures of the knife in question, I would ask one of your fellow marine snipers to evaluate/critique how you are holding and using the knife.

 

[buckfynn]

Great, big forums like this have a zillion posts, odd that nobody else talks about this.

Actually the topic of choils has been beat to death on this forum like a dead horse. Just type in choils in advanced search and 40 pages of results will be displayed.

As for choils most people either love or hate them no matter what side of the fence they are on.

 

[Comeuppance]

Since you won't post pictures of the knife in question, I would ask one of your fellow marine snipers to evaluate/critique how you are holding and using the knife.

I think we've touched on the reason this thread is more than slightly antagonistic towards the OP, who may at this stage be well-served by starting a new account on this forum with a different name to avoid relatively reliable harassment.

Maybe he'll be a spec ops for his new one. Who knows?

Anyway, I'm all over the place with choils TBH. I like them in some knives, but generally very few. It's the reason I can't get behind a Hinderer, but also why I love the Kershaw RAM. I had one ground into a Kershaw Junkyard Dawg 2.2, but hate it on the PM2, love it on the Manix, and for some reason didn't mind it on the Protech TR4.

"Bite" from choils just reeks of bad design to me. User error is one thing, but it seems like poor forethought to make any part of the intended handling surface of a cutting tool dangerous to the user. This was actually one of the reasons I gave up on liking the original Spyderco Gayle Bradley folder. I haven't tried out version 2, but I also am no longer interested in that general blade shape being more into wharnies/sheepsfoot designs for my "work" knives.

 

[chiral.grolim]

This is most likely an issue like "hammer bite" on semiauto pistols. An unmodified 1911, SIG P210 or BHP doesn't bite my hands, but enough people do have a problem to indicate that putting sharp things next to skin isn't a universal solution.

As Czechmate pointed out, this is a relatively new solution to a previously solved problem.

What do you mean? Many early swords and daggers as well as knives featured a wide ricasso for "ricasso grip" above the guard, i.e. putting the finger closer to the choil (commonly un-notched). There are samples of this dating back.... sheesh, really far.

Didn't the "original" Bowie knife (1800s) feature something of a "finger choil"? (enlarged recessed ricasso above the guard)

And then there is Randall (1940s, not my pic)

And probably Gerber popularized it after that (1980s). So the idea of a choked-grip on the "blade" (i.e. ahead of the handle) may have originated in early European history or further back? And was popular by the 1800s, gaining popularity into the 1940s before the 1980s era of mass-production? How "new" are we talking?

Regarding puukko and other Nordic blades, how many are sharpened AFTER the blade is attached to the handle?
My understanding is that the choil was invented as a means of sharpening the entire edge (tip to heel) without scratching up the bolster or ricasso or ending up with a recurve or a dull section at the heel. Enlarging that choil to accommodate a finger is a natural progression for the "ricasso-grip" that some users may prefer to employ.

I agree that it can be done wrong, just as an un-notched choil can be done wrong. *shrug*

 

[marcinek]

Actually the topic of choils has been beat to death on this forum like a dead horse. Just type in choils in advanced search and 40 pages of results will be displayed.

As for choils most people either love or hate them no matter what side of the fence they are on.

Well, I think the original question was not about liking or disliking finger choils, but more a question about what is causing the OP to continually cut himself on his.

Could be technique, or his size, or a too shallow finger choil, etc etc etc. I was hoping to take a deeper dive on that that specific topic, but since we have not seen a pic, and the OPs feelings stated earlier, I don't think we will get any further in helping figuring his issue out.

I'll just end with my opinion on finger choils (which nobody asked for! ). I am not a fan. But not because I find myself repeatedly cutting myself on them. I can use them just fine. I just dont "choke up"....its what smaller knives are for.

But I do like a sharpening choil.

Oh well.

 

[RevDevil]

I think we've touched on the reason this thread is more than slightly antagonistic towards the OP, who may at this stage be well-served by starting a new account on this forum with a different name to avoid relatively reliable harassment.

Maybe he'll be a spec ops for his new one. Who knows?

Anyway, I'm all over the place with choils TBH. I like them in some knives, but generally very few. It's the reason I can't get behind a Hinderer, but also why I love the Kershaw RAM. I had one ground into a Kershaw Junkyard Dawg 2.2, but hate it on the PM2, love it on the Manix, and for some reason didn't mind it on the Protech TR4.

"Bite" from choils just reeks of bad design to me. User error is one thing, but it seems like poor forethought to make any part of the intended handling surface of a cutting tool dangerous to the user. This was actually one of the reasons I gave up on liking the original Spyderco Gayle Bradley folder. I haven't tried out version 2, but I also am no longer interested in that general blade shape being more into wharnies/sheepsfoot designs for my "work" knives.

No, this is not good advice. You are allowed one account. If there are multiples found they can all be banned, beat to just ride it out, be respectful, honest, and report people posting off topic. They will be dealt with appropriately.

 

[Chopper88]

I don't really use knives with a choil, so no expert here. But I can understand people cut themselves if they hold knives like this, I wouldn't even dare to think about doing this with any of my knives...
Perhaps 'normal' use has different meaning for different people?

 

[RX-79G]

What do you mean? Many early swords and daggers as well as knives featured a wide ricasso for "ricasso grip" above the guard, i.e. putting the finger closer to the choil (commonly un-notched). There are samples of this dating back.... sheesh, really far.

Didn't the "original" Bowie knife (1800s) feature something of a "finger choil"? (enlarged recessed ricasso above the guard)

And then there is Randall (1940s, not my pic)

And probably Gerber popularized it after that (1980s). So the idea of a choked-grip on the "blade" (i.e. ahead of the handle) may have originated in early European history or further back? And was popular by the 1800s, gaining popularity into the 1940s before the 1980s era of mass-production? How "new" are we talking?

Regarding puukko and other Nordic blades, how many are sharpened AFTER the blade is attached to the handle?
My understanding is that the choil was invented as a means of sharpening the entire edge (tip to heel) without scratching up the bolster or ricasso or ending up with a recurve or a dull section at the heel. Enlarging that choil to accommodate a finger is a natural progression for the "ricasso-grip" that some users may prefer to employ.

I agree that it can be done wrong, just as an un-notched choil can be done wrong. *shrug*

It just depends why you think ricassos came about in the first place. They appear to be a solution to fighting with blades with cross guards, where the guard made sharpening more difficult and blocking another blade with the guard was likely to cause chipping of the edge where it goes into the guard. Removing the edge removes that weakness. The Bowie knife was intended as a weapon - like a short cutlass.

Once you have a ricasso you can choose to put your fingers on it, but it seems like we aren't talking about longsword technique or fighting knives with guards. For field/utility/bushcraft/hunting knives that don't have guards, the ricasso just becomes an uncomfortably thin section of handle with no wood or bolster on it. Like the later MACVSOG knife, I think those Randalls are pretty, I just don't understand what outdoor technique requires a large guard, which then has to be addressed with a finger choil. And I'm not saying that finger choils are the problem - ricassos on blades that don't need guards seems like the source of all of this.

However, style is style, and if you like the look, so be it.


As far as sharpening goes, I don't see why you can't put a small choil on a Scandi type knife, if that is what is desired. A 1/16" notch isn't going to make the knife hard to use.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

Discussing knives, their characteristics, and their uses, is the proper business of this forum. Analyzing each other is not. Just stop it.

The thread could have generated a good discussion. What IS a choil for? Why DO some prople have a problem with one? Why not find another knife if this style isnt working for you?

"This thread is useless without pictures," We can't help if we have to guess what the original poster is doing.

 

[GREENJACKET]

I've driven a stalker of the hill because on trying to dispatch a stag he cut several fingers through tendons to the bone. The old boys knew a thing or two. Knives that were intended for heavy work had guards, otherwise they were featherweight and relied on being ultra keen so nothing too much would be asked of them. A well designed knife then the guard shouldn't "get in the way".

 

[RX-79G]

It is unfortunate that what happens in W&C doesn't stay there.

 

[RevDevil]

I do believe some choils are there purely for aesthetics, a way to pay tribute to a similar knife with the same blade shape. A choil should probably not be used much with any sort of hard forward cutting or stabbing motion, it's simply asking for trouble in many ways. You cannot predict what your hand will do with a stabbing force on any given knife, unless is has a single or double guard. A choil works more when you are choking up on the knife for slow detailed cutting.

 

[22-rimfire]

I don't really use knives with a choil, so no expert here. But I can understand people cut themselves if they hold knives like this, I wouldn't even dare to think about doing this with any of my knives...
Perhaps 'normal' use has different meaning for different people?

Looks like either the knives are too small or hands too big. The solution is to get another knife or change your grip. I like choils and ricasso's myself, but I am an old Randall fan.

 

[stabman]

Choil good.

Sized for me...no cut fingers.
If it cuts your fingers, tough; you deserve it for using my knife.

 

[craytab]

I do believe some choils are there purely for aesthetics, a way to pay tribute to a similar knife with the same blade shape. A choil should probably not be used much with any sort of hard forward cutting or stabbing motion, it's simply asking for trouble in many ways. You cannot predict what your hand will do with a stabbing force on any given knife, unless is has a single or double guard. A choil works more when you are choking up on the knife for slow detailed cutting.

That is exactly what some of us said they were for and it is the way I use them. Unfortunately it has nothing to do with the OP as we don't know what knife he was using or how he was using it. I've just never found my self getting repeatedly cut by my knives when using one with a choil