Choil worries..bad design or for some reason?

[stabman]

And...choil:

 

[chiral.grolim]

It just depends why you think ricassos came about in the first place. They appear to be a solution to fighting with blades with cross guards, where the guard made sharpening more difficult and blocking another blade with the guard was likely to cause chipping of the edge where it goes into the guard. Removing the edge removes that weakness. The Bowie knife was intended as a weapon - like a short cutlass.

Once you have a ricasso you can choose to put your fingers on it, but it seems like we aren't talking about longsword technique or fighting knives with guards. For field/utility/bushcraft/hunting knives that don't have guards, the ricasso just becomes an uncomfortably thin section of handle with no wood or bolster on it. Like the later MACVSOG knife, I think those Randalls are pretty, I just don't understand what outdoor technique requires a large guard, which then has to be addressed with a finger choil. And I'm not saying that finger choils are the problem - ricassos on blades that don't need guards seems like the source of all of this.

However, style is style, and if you like the look, so be it.


As far as sharpening goes, I don't see why you can't put a small choil on a Scandi type knife, if that is what is desired. A 1/16" notch isn't going to make the knife hard to use.

I think the Bowie-knife originated from a butcher's knife, it already had the recessed handle...

Y'know, I'm describing it that way but would like someone to give me a more appropriate term for a knife with a forward/leading blade heel or with the tang/handle recessed from the edge, like a standard chef's knife.

Anyway, the origin was described to me as a butcher's knife with an added guard, but the guard far enough below the choil to allow a finger to seat with the guard between the index and middle fingers. Thus a butcher's knife gained the attributes of a combat knife - you can still hold it close to the blade heel for certain types of cutting tasks, but you can also 'choke back' behind the guard for other tasks. The guard protects the hand from sliding forward onto the blade-edge in thrusts. something that the choil or ricasso doesn't accomplish, but the latter provides options for some closer grips in carving and tip-work....

 

[stabman]

And if you don't want to use the choil, don't...simple!

 

[Boats]

That isn't a choil. It's a grooved ricasso, which prevents you getting cut the way a finger choil would. This design makes sense to me because your finger isn't inside the plunge.

This is a big knife where you can also put your index finger right next to the edge for fine work. You just don't have to put it on part of the primary bevel.

Everybody can pick whatever kind of knife they want, but if the question is "is the finger choil the only way to get your index finger really close to the edge" the answer is "no". Finger grooves adjacent to the plunge and Scandi style handles do the same thing.

Those index finger grooves on "Scandi knives" are a pretty recent, and totally lamentable, design trend. They have undoubtedly appeared on modern puukkos for the same reason the choil has spread like a cancer on "hard use" knives in America—the average Joe doesn't know how to properly handle sharp objects these days.

 

[stabman]

Knives without choils also work:

 

[stabman]

And one huge benefit of choils has not been mentioned yet...it give judgey people something else to feel superior about for no reason.
"I use choils; therefore you suck!"
"I don't use choils; therefore you suck!"

See, it's a great knife feature.

 

[stabman]

Choil or no choil...

 

[shinyedges]

Agreed, who is it that has that signature " There is nothing further to be gained from the second kick of a mule" or something to that effect. Some choils are for appearances like rev said and using them is not a good option. The thing is, if it cut you once how many times will you do the same thing over and over?

I suggest and this is just my humble 2cents, stop using the choil if it repeatedly cuts you Marine e7.

That is exactly what some of us said they were for and it is the way I use them. Unfortunately it has nothing to do with the OP as we don't know what knife he was using or how he was using it. I've just never found my self getting repeatedly cut by my knives when using one with a choil

 

[Marine E7]

I was doing detail work. Required that grip.
I did stop. Why would you assume I did not?

The knife in question I got was a "blem" or "second". I got it 50% -sh less cost as such.
I was told " usually it is our logo was not put on straight" but not always
He told me in many cases if a knife is a blem some finishing touches will not ever be done or at a later time.
Perfect scale fitting ect ect.Seems I got a mostly done knife.I did not deal with the owner ( who was away at SHOT at the time) but the #2 guy, I guess.

Just now on skype I showed the owner my exact knife. HE said " wow that NEVER should have been sent, that is rough, very rough,wow"
Boxing mine up now, waiting on replacement, 2-3 days.

ALL this said, Choil like this still seem unsafe to me.
The huge knife above ( blue) has a super deep much safer looking design to me.Mine was 1/2 as deep and 1/2 as wide with sharp edges on the choil itself,as well.

Fact is,people DO get cut.

**BTW what is that giant blue scales knife? ( parang?) Far right looks like one of those ultra light by CS.

 

[craytab]

Still would like to know the knife. A picture of how "ruff" it was would help. Also, how does "ruff" lead to getting cut? What does ruff mean in this instance?

 

[RX-79G]

I think the Bowie-knife originated from a butcher's knife, it already had the recessed handle...

Y'know, I'm describing it that way but would like someone to give me a more appropriate term for a knife with a forward/leading blade heel or with the tang/handle recessed from the edge, like a standard chef's knife.

Anyway, the origin was described to me as a butcher's knife with an added guard, but the guard far enough below the choil to allow a finger to seat with the guard between the index and middle fingers. Thus a butcher's knife gained the attributes of a combat knife - you can still hold it close to the blade heel for certain types of cutting tasks, but you can also 'choke back' behind the guard for other tasks. The guard protects the hand from sliding forward onto the blade-edge in thrusts. something that the choil or ricasso doesn't accomplish, but the latter provides options for some closer grips in carving and tip-work....

Is this the kind of butcher's knife you mean:

The fingers are protected not by a guard, but by the blade coming down lower than the handle. Some of the early Bowies I've seen have blade width ricassos, some have the edge going right to the guard. What I didn't see was any of them with a choil or finger choil.

Regardless, all I've been getting at is that there are blade/handle configurations (like this butcher) that protect the index finger without a large guard that still put the index finger right next to the edge - which is a hair safer.




E7 would not be the first person on the forum to keep a "problem" knife's identity to himself. I think that's fine.

 

[shinyedges]

Anyone else worry or have at least thoughts of choils like on the Bark River III? MANY have a similar set-up.
http://www.barkriverknives.com/index/series/search-rescue-2/bravo-3/
I have had my finger touch the edge on other knives ( near blade) and get cut a few times. One I can think of, cut me 2x in 1 day from normal use.
I have an average size hand. Im a big person, heck...1/2 bigfoot.I hold plenty tight.I dont "sissy grip" it.
One tiny slip and so much damage.

Somthing like this is SO much better and safer !
http://www.whiteriverknives.com/collections/backpacker/products/backpacker-orange

So I am curious. ( I do not make knives) It seems like very little cost and effort to make a safer design.
Perhaps do not sharpen the blade to a point next to the choil U shape groove.

Great, big forums like this have a zillion posts, odd that nobody else talks about this.

It was the 2 times in one day that led me to believe you kept doing it, Who makes the knife? Pretty Cool they skyped with you and you showed it to them, I've never heard of that happening before. I'd like to know what company skyped with you?

 

[jbmonkey]

To be fair, the coffee was hotter than it should've been, others had gotten burned badly by it (and filed complaints, over 500 if I remember correctly), she got 3rd-degree burns from it, and as soon as that lawsuit happened every fast food company (not just McD's) changed the standard temperature of their coffee by dropping it 20 degrees.

Sure, coffee is supposed to be hot, but she had a very valid case that everyone acknowledged was a big problem.

I don't think finger choils are that kind of problem, most knife users don't file lawsuits when they nick their fingers by not paying attention and grabbing too close to the edge of the blade.

In fairness...she was sitting in a small car with the seat back reclined and the seat bottom inclined and stuck the hot coffee between her legs and tried to put creamer and suger into it in that position. An old lady with a shaky weak grip. Her grandson or such was right next to her and could have done it for her but didnt. Point being when people try to do stupid things in awkard setups whos fault is it really.


All that nonsense aside.......id like to see a picture of said knife in hand to understand the issue better.

 

[craytab]

E7 would not be the first person on the forum to keep a "problem" knife's identity to himself. I think that's fine.

Yup, it is fine if he doesn't want to share information important to answering his question. But that would then beg the question what the point of the thread is? If people want to argue about what a choil is or if it is useful, fine, by all means, start a thread about it! No need to get this thread shut down with arguments not related to helping the OP not cut himself multiple times in a day. And unfortunately, no one else is learning about what a "ruff" design is or how it could lead to cutting ones self, with hopes of avoiding such designs or warrantying such flaws in the future. I think such information would be helpful to the community and directly related to the OP.

 

[Thomas Linton]

And McDonald's did not change the target temp of their coffee, which the coffee trade assn. said was "industry standard." McD's does sell iced coffee.

 

[RX-79G]

Yup, it is fine if he doesn't want to share information important to answering his question. But that would then beg the question what the point of the thread is? If people want to argue about what a choil is or if it is useful, fine, by all means, start a thread about it! No need to get this thread shut down with arguments not related to helping the OP not cut himself multiple times in a day. And unfortunately, no one else is learning about what a "ruff" design is or how it could lead to cutting ones self, with hopes of avoiding such designs or warrantying such flaws in the future. I think such information would be helpful to the community and directly related to the OP.

I don't understand your concerns that discussion about the design of choils is off topic in a thread where the OP specifically said "So I am curious. ( I do not make knives) It seems like very little cost and effort to make a safer design. Perhaps do not sharpen the blade to a point next to the choil U shape groove."

And we have been discussing other, safer designs.

I also don't think the OP requires the forum's assistance in how to hold a knife, nor do the other people who also posted on this thread that they don't find a finger choil to be a very good or safe design. The OP said that he is a big person, and he and the maker said the choil was left rough. There's no mystery to explain, and nothing is being overshadowed with the stuff about design. Aside from the off topic attacks, everyone is pretty much just talking about where the index finger goes.

 

[shinyedges]

I just don't know why he is ignoring questions instead of just saying he doesn't want to disclose the brand and model of the knife

I genuinely want to know what company skyped with him.


Also, it sounds like the company had good service, so what is there to hide?

People have questions, valid ones.

 

[22-rimfire]

Just now on skype I showed the owner my exact knife. HE said " wow that NEVER should have been sent, that is rough, very rough,wow" Boxing mine up now, waiting on replacement, 2-3 days.

Fact is,people DO get cut.

I hope they send you a new one. But with seconds, it doesn't always happen.

If you use knives, you will get cut from time to time. Just part of the game.....

 

[RX-79G]

I just don't know why he is ignoring questions instead of just saying he doesn't want to disclose the brand and model of the knife

I genuinely want to know what company skyped with him.


Also, it sounds like the company had good service, so what is there to hide?

People have questions, valid ones.

He isn't ignoring questions, you're ignoring him when he said, in reply to an earlier request:

I do not want to bash the MFG,nor will I.

 

[shinyedges]

So how exactly is saying what company makes the knife bashing them? Please do tell...

If anything good customer service has been shown, so bashing? Every manufacturer has had slips, it is how they handle it that matters.

So "bashing" them by saying who makes the knife... Really?

He isn't ignoring questions, you're ignoring him when he said, in reply to an earlier request: