Cold Steel Strider rip-0ff

jhillas said:
2) it keeps being stated over and over by people who have seen it with their own eyes...if the Rangers accept him, thats good enough for me. That says all I need to know right there.
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People keep saying things like that but I would ask who the Rangers/Military do turn away when offered a bunch of free or heavily discounted equipment for our heroes? It may still be true that they love Mick but I don't think it's solely him being a great guy that makes that a reality. Which isn't to take anything away from Mick but to paint a larger picture as to the why of things. IMHO

oil
 
If you check out the Badlands Forums you will find that there are lots of Rangers and Marines that post on the Strider forum that have nothing but respect for Mick as a person, and not because he supplies them with cheap, or free knives. I'm sure that if Mick was boasting about a military career that never happened, he would have been found out by now and would be a laughing stock of the Armed Services.
 
I guess I'm going by the court papers and Mick's statements in such as to his military career as opposed to how many friends he has and who they are. (Well intentioned friends at that.) And I've no doubt he does have a lot of military friends, my comment was directed towards the idea that anyone who goes, or is allowed to go, to the Best Ranger deal is automatically the real deal and it has nothing to do with what they are bringing to the table. IMHO
 
I had figured I was done with this thread, but I feel its a bit of an insult to insinuate that the Military, and veterans alike befriend Mick just for free goods. Kind of low IMO. Most are too proud to accept that and would insist on paying for what they use based on what I've seen. Mick made mistakes like we all have. He paid his debt to society for the big ones and has basically turned things around admirably compared to most other convicts you read about. For that he deserves a big slap on the back and I'll be the first to admit it but it doesn't change the facts.

I try real hard to walk the fine line to not stir the pot if at all possible and have heard both sides of the street here. Success and failure are both events that occur in life they are not a person. One stumble in life doesn't mean the man is a total waste from that moment on anymore than one success in life means he is now assured of easy street.

I know whenever these posts and threads come up again that Mick and his pals and many of the rest of us must just roll our eyes in disgust but in the end you have to realize that it all started with him in the first place. Uncomfortable as it may be for him if he had not attacked another hero it would never have happened at all.

My son told me that in Iraq when he was there for many months that he saw a pretty good mix of $30 beater upper knives and multiple hundred dollar ones all being used. To suggest that those were all free is a bit unrealistic. I imagine that many of them were in fact paid for with blood and sweat after the dollars changed hands.
STR
 
I am not saying every Military person who has a Strider got it free, I'm saying there are also other reasons besides everyone liking Mick as to why Strider is welcomed at the Best Ranger competition. And that is all. And I say this to the people who say that if he is allowed there then that automagically makes his Military career anything more than what it was.

I also never said anything about him being a felon. As far as I'm concerned he paid his debt and that is that.

Please don't put words in my mouth and then try to call me to the mat over them. And I have nothing but respect for our fighting heroes. As I always have.:thumbup:

thanks,

oil
 
From the tactical forums website.

I have removed most of the extraneous commentary.

As many of you are aware, Chris Osman and TAG Gear sued Mick Strider and Strider Knives over Mick Strider's Libel Per Se, Slander Per Se, Interference with Prospective Economic Advantage and Unfair Business Practices as related to Mick Strider's statements at TF and elsewhere regarding Chris Osman, his military past and his business practices.

The suit was filed on August 9, 2005 in the Superior Court of the State of California, for the County of San Diego, North County Division, bearing the case number GIN04566

In the Agreement dated 3-16-06, Settlement of Action, part 1, section (b) Mick had to write a letter of apology to Chris Osman, the text of which follows:

Dear Chris,

Please accept this correspondence as a formal apology. As you are aware, at one time we were business acquaintances on friendly terms. Based in part on information that was provided to me that I did not independently verify, I reached some conclusions about you and your business. Those conclusions colored my perception of you and your company.
In response to the conclusions I reached about you, I said some things and published statements about your company that were more than likely defamatory. I made statements regarding the status of your discharge from the military, wrongfully accused you of being responsible for putting marines I know behind bars, accused you of ripping off other people's products, and made negative statements about the way that you operate your business.

My words have had an impact on your life, have unnecessarily cost you and your company the loss of potential business, and pushed you to the point where you felt it was necessary to file a lawsuit against me to resolve our issues. I hereby apologize to you for the untrue things I previously published about you and your company and am sorry for the resulting consequences to you.

I hope that this formal apology can rectify any damage that may have been caused by my actions, and I hope that we can both put this behind us and move on with our lives.
You have my word that I do not intend to say anything about you or your business, positive or negative, to anyone unless compelled by law or court order to do so.

Signed,
Mick Strider, President Strider Knives Inc.
Dated 3-16-06

section 1, part (c), Mick Strider had to allocute as follows:

Mick Strider hereby acknowledges that he has never been deployed as a U.S. Army Ranger. Strider also acknowledges that he has never served in or participated with SOCOM (Special Operations Command). Strider also acknowledges that he has never had any combat experience with any branch of the U.S. Military or U.S.Government Agencies, nor has he participated in any "Black Ops". Strider served in 2/75, but never graduated Ranger School. Strider lost all rank, was barred from re-enlistment and was discharged from the Military as a Private.

AND


In part (d) of the settlement, Strider is compelled to set the record straight wherever and whenever such lies are outted!!

(d) To the extent that any contrary representations have been made or are made in the future, by any other person or entity, Strider agrees he shall take the following affirmative steps within three (3) weeks after notice by Plaintiffs:
(1) send a letter via certified mail to the person or entity identified by the Plaintiffs affirming all of the information set forth in the first sentence of this paragraph and a request that any contrary representations be immediately corrected, and (2) send a copy of that letter and a certified mail receipt to Plaintiffs or their attorneys of record. Notice shall be deemed effective on Strider by sending a letter to Strider at his last known address or by sending a letter to his attorney of record in this litigation via certified mail.

(e)SKI will immediately cease and desist from holding Strider out as having ever been deployed as a U.S. Army Ranger, a member of or a participant with SOCOM, as having ever been deployed in "black ops", or as having had any combat experience with any branch of the U.S.Military or U.S. Government. SKI shall take immediate actions to correct any such representations currently made on its own website (see Exhibit B) and to the extent possible shall take immediate actions to correct any such representations by its business partners, including but not limited to advertising regarding SKI's partnership and distribution through Buck Knives.

(f) Strider agrees not to defame Plaintiffs in the future.

(g) The Parties acknowledge that the proceeding subdivisions are all material covenants to the settlement of this disupte and that should enforcement of this agreement be necessary, Defendants agree that injunctive relief would be appropriate.

My Questions regarding these statements are:

1. Is what was printed there True or False?
2. If there are inaccuracies, what specifically is not correct?
3. What is your source?
 
I guess my question is--Why is it any of your Business ?

This is a matter long Settled and , from What I just Read , you were not involved.

It is none of Your Business.

Jim
 
Mick Strider, Duane Dwyer, Tom Mayo, Ernie Emerson. 4 guys I would go to bat for at anytime. I am honored to have met and spoken with each of them in person. Funny how each of them respect each other as well. Funny how the Military including the Rangers all respect Mick and buy his product. I sure wish it was publicized more about all the good Mick has done for many people and charitable orgainzations. But then again, he is not a self promoting egomaniac like so many others in the industry. Read what you want on the internet but meet the men in person before you decide.

We have all made mistakes in our lives. What you do beyond that point can say alot about who you are.

Yes, I to have met LT as well. That was the one and only time I will. Now I have to figure out how to get the hour of my life back that I wasted reading this garbage.

Kurt Jensen
 
AZGlock21 said:
I sure wish it was publicized more about all the good Mick has done for many people and charitable organizations.

We have all made mistakes in our lives. What you do beyond that point can say alot about who you are.
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I have a child with autism. Mick and Duane have auctioned knives to support autism causes. I'm sure they've done other things in this regard as well (about which I'm unaware). Their actions may not have helped my child directly...but I appreciate their efforts and concern greatly. I'll say it publicly...you are great guys for caring. Thanks Mick, Duane, and everyone else at Strider.

It is sad that we can't just look at who people are today...right here and now...instead of constantly looking to the past. Mick's life is public. Most of ours are not. I feel sorry for anyone having to have every mistake/statement they've ever made micro-analyzed and rehashed again and again. We have all made mistakes. Some big...some small. Can't we skip the pecking party?

In the here and now, Lynn Thompson, in a cold and calculating manner...tries to sell knives through whatever means he can. His ethics would not be visible with an electron microscope. Who...today...right here and now...could have anything but disgust for the man? Nevertheless, I remember when he said horrible things about Busse. I had, somehow, gotten my hands on a CS catalog that featured his diatribe against Busse. Unfortunately for LT, I had never heard of Busse. So...I looked into the firm...which eventually lead me here...and to other knives that I did not even know existed. I didn't buy any of Lynn's knives...but...inadvertently...he pointed me in the right direction. I guess even the lowest of the low can do some good. Accidentally, of course.


Now, I don't want to start singing Kum-ba-yah. I don't even want to have a group hug. I will say, however, that it saddens me to see our community of knife lovers fighting and carping over such. If a small percentage of the time spent on this thread were put into writing letters to various government types...perhaps we would not have to worry about assisted openers being marginalized legally...or the increasingly onerous restrictions being placed on knife owners in certain cities across our country. We all...all of us...have so much in common...so much at stake together...and yet...we waste time on things like this.

Next time anyone here feels like personally attacking someone in a thread...might I suggest Chuck Schumer?
 
lifter4Him said:
Ernest Emerson and his family are friends of mine that I hold in the highest regard. I have never heard him claim to have been the first to use the Americanized tanto blade style and I am pretty sure he wasnt.
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You can be "pretty sure" but you've posted no proof to the contrary. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

Everyone agrees Mr. Emerson is a great guy. That means he's modest and doesn't go in for garish Cold Steel style self-promotion. He lets his work speak for itself.

Since you claim you're a close personal friend of Mr. Emerson, please contact him and encourage him to clarify this issue concerning his work. I'll certainly retract my claim if Ernest Emerson himself admits he borrowed the blade profile from someone else annnnnnd tells us all who he borrowed it from. That's equally as important.

This isn't ancient history. The earliest CQC profile I found was in K'94 , though the actual knife was photographed (and made) earlier than that. Based on that, I claim the blade profile was first done by one maker, Ernest Emerson, and nobody on this board has shown proof otherwise.

Perhaps you've never heard of Bob Lum, Kit Carson, Phill Hartsfeld, or Bob Terzuola. Each of them made tantos before 1990, though not many because it wasnt a popular blade style back then.
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Something about that arrogant presumption really gets me. Perhaps I have. Perhaps I am familiar with the style of their work and I don't need to name-drop to support my claim.

I don't want to sound abusive, but do people here have literacy problems? How many times did I mention Hartsfield as a one of the early custom makers of tantos? How many times did I mention he wasn't the only one who made tantos?

The question I've raised repeatedly is not about the traditional kiriha zukuri tanto (incorrectly called the Americanized tanto) with an angled blade edge and its point in line with the back of the blade, but a very different profile altogether. The Emerson CQC profile which combines the kiriha zukuri tanto with an clip point bowie. The point is not in line with the back but in the center of the blade, with a bevelled straight clip point.

To go back to the original topic, whether anything or any of what has been posted in this thread is true or not true, it was purely low class of cold steel to take a shot at another company.
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Yes. The "original topic" is that bad old Lynn Thompson shamelessly copies Strider knives. Neither you nor anyone else here has shown a single shred of conclusive proof that Ernest Emerson didn't invent the combination of the kiriha zukuri tanto and a clip point blade, aka the CQC profile.

Until someone does, guess what? Lynn Thompson is guilty of copying from Strider Knives who are just as guilty of copying that blade profile from Ernest Emerson.

Everything that can be said about Thompson being an unscrupulous dirt bag for "stealing" someone else's hard work should also be said about Strider. All they did is put their handle (such as it is) on Ernest Emerson's blade profile.

I guess that makes it an original "Strider" design. :rolleyes:
 
Vaako said:
The question I've raised repeatedly is not about the traditional kiriha zukuri tanto (incorrectly called the Americanized tanto) with an angled blade edge and its point in line with the back of the blade, but a very different profile altogether. The Emerson CQC profile which combines the kiriha zukuri tanto with an clip point bowie. The point is not in line with the back but in the center of the blade, with a bevelled straight clip point.
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As far as I know, you are right about Ernest Emerson being the first to utilize what you termed the "CQC tanto profile", with its straight clip point. I have been unable to locate another maker who made one like that prior to Emerson's CQC6.

Edited to add: Emerson's (CQC tanto profile) knives are and have always been chisel ground. Cold Steel's and Strider's tanto blades are not. The Strider tanto blade has a different looking tip profile than the Emerson "CQC tanto profile". So, if you want to get technical, Strider's tanto blades differ from Ernest Emerson's, contrary to what you have stated many times. The Cold Steel G.I. Tanto's tip profile, to me, looks much more like Emerson's than Strider's does.

Regards,
3G
 
It depends on how technical we want to get. The Cold Steel has a radiused forward guard instead of right angles. The butt is slopes in the opposite direction than a Strider. The cordwrap handle is different. Does that make it a a totally different knife? Maybe from a legal perspective it does, which is probably the only thing Cold Steel is concerned about.

However, judging by the opinion of people here, the answer is universally "no" and one is a copy of the other. Personally, I think it's a copy too.

But the same broad focus should also apply to Strider's copy of Emerson.

Does switching from a chisel edge to a hollow or a regular "V" grind suddenly make it a completely different profile?

Does changing the angle and length of the kissaki (i.e. point) make it a completely different profile?

How about changing the angle and length of straight clip back?

From an absolutely technical point of view, you're right. Any one of these changes makes the knife a completely "different" profile. In that sense, Cold Steel's G.I. Tanto has a completely different profile than a Strider.

Taken to its logical extreme, every knife of the same type by the same maker has a "different" profile because it's a few microns different in finished dimensions from every other one ever made.

However, I think the uniqueness of a maker's design is a little broader than that and embodies certain key features that make it an an immediately recognizable design. In the case of the CQC profile it would be the centered point, with a kiriha zukuri blade edge, and a bevelled straight clip back.
 
killerskill said:
Look it this blatant rip off. then he even says it, and disses Strider.:jerkit:. http://www.coldsteel.com/80ft.html.
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You know, I saw that on the Cold Steel website, when someone mentioned their new products.

And yeah. That's who you want to buy knives from--the people who make personal attacks on other knife companies based on their background.

The only thing more pathetic than that would have been ethnic or religious slurs directed at other knife manufacturers.

Not that I've seen anything like that mentioned as related to knife purchases before...
 
Maybe this is a reading comprehension thing. The original poster talked about thompson himself calling the knives similar and his insinuations.

Knives '83
Pg87 W.H. Welch-armor piercing Americanized tanto
Pg. 98 American tantos by Bob Lum and Howard Viele
Pg.99 Howard Viele

Knives '84
Pg. 69-Edwin Anderson
Pg. 70 Michael Walker's "FOLDING" American tanto
Pg. 70 Tantos by W.M. Reeves, Devon Beaver, Kevin Hoffman
Pg. 72-Tantos by Chuck Stapel, Bob Hajovsky, Ray Beers

Knives '85
Pg. 39 Kevin Hoffman, armor piercing American tanto
Pg. 72-Ray Beers, Shiva Ki,Tim Zowada, Bob Terzuola
Pg. 73-Joe Barefoot, David Broadwell,Colin Cox, Keith Coleman
Pg. 75-"FOLDING" tantos by Mel Pardue and Charles Stewart

That's enough, took exactly 15 minutes to find these.

Again with the reading comprehension. I did not say I was a "close" friend of the Emerson's, I said I was a friend and hold them in high regard. I only see them maybe 3 times a year at shows and maybe speak on the phone once or twice a year. That doesnt constitute a "close" friendship and I would never presume it to. I do however truly appreciate how well they treat my son when they are at a show in the state he lives in and stops by their table. 2 of the very nicest people you could meet. And I will talk to him about this subject the next time I see him.


Let's be honest, this thread, and the multitude of others like it on a bunch of other forums, isnt about knife copying. Heck, almost every knife production company and every knifemaker around has been influenced or copied other knives at some time or other. It's not about that at all.
It's about the cute comments made about buying knives for hundreds of dollars more from ex-cons, etc,etc.

It's just sleazy advertising. Do you think if one of the executives at Ford got arrested for something you'd see Chevy write about it in their ads? Or Bud posting it about Miller?

Anyway, you seem to be taking this thread pretty personally, not sure why. Have fun, I've got work to do.
 
lifter4Him said:
Let's be honest, this thread, and the multitude of others like it on a bunch of other forums, isnt about knife copying. Heck, almost every knife production company and every knifemaker around has been influenced or copied other knives at some time or other. It's not about that at all.
It's about the cute comments made about buying knives for hundreds of dollars more from ex-cons, etc,etc.

It's just sleazy advertising. Do you think if one of the executives at Ford got arrested for something you'd see Chevy write about it in their ads? Or Bud posting it about Miller?

Anyway, you seem to be taking this thread pretty personally, not sure why. Have fun, I've got work to do.
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Couldn't agree more.

Vaako,

Seriously, give it a rest. :) Who really cares who came up with the design first? And what in the world does it really have to do with this thread?



As can be noted, I have visited this site for several years and spend the majority of my time learning by reading and absorbing. I'm not seeking to establish myself by some so called post count.

LT's antics are deplorable and demonstrate very little honor IMO. Having said that, Strider's actions have not been shining examples either. It is commendable to see both fellow knife makers and friends come to his defense here.

It says a great deal for his life today and the way he chooses to lead it.


My only point of contention has been the lie after lie about his so called military service and what it encompassed. I have never purchased a Strider knife, I do not plan to. It is because of his lies? No, not necessarily. I simply am aware of many knives within that category I classify as better. Due in no small part to knowledge gleaned here.

I believe this thread was intended to demonstrate or shed light on Cold Steel Rip-Off techniques and "sleazy advertising." I would challenge those here defending Strider to consider....

Would not Striders past false statements not be easily categorized just as easily as "sleazy advertising"? Just a thought.
 
I don't post alot, especially in threads like this, but I must confess that I follow them like eveyone else - it's like watching a fire.

Having said that, I believe that maybe a little perspective from someone with "no dog in the fight" may be at least a little useful.

I don't own any Strider knives - they're just not my particular cup of tea. I visit their table at the NYC shows, and have handled their knives - I think they are a quality product. Anyone I've ever spoken to at their table has been very polite to my and my son, and that says alot to me.

Vaako, I know you've heard they saying "there's nothing new under the sun" and certainly in the knife world that is true. No one has truly "invented" any blade shape. Go back and look thru museaum catalogs, old Sheffield info etc and you can find just about anything you want.

Dave (Lifter) has very nicely listed a whole bunch of "tanto" and "tanto like"
knives which all predate the CQ6. They are all "related" and yet not related.
Ernie Emerson (don't know him but have talked to him at shows-extremely nice guy!) put his own, recognizable style into the "tanto world" and others have benefitted from that. That is a good thing!

Who "invented" the hunter? The skinner? The Bowie? the fighter? the sub-hilt?
You get my point, there is no 1 answer to any of these questions. What alot of folks object to with LT is his extraneous jabs, his embrace of "ideas" he previously derided as "stupid" or "useless" and his generally confrontational attitude. He has his defenders, as does Mick Strider, and that's how life is. What side you fall on is up to you, but I think everyone should just give this a rest! I've met some of the guys who've posted here at various shows, or spoken to them or ordered knives from them. Since they are without exception straightforward, good guys, I tend to value their opinions - in this case, they are supportive of Mick Strider.

I think "bashing" people one doesn't know is too easy to do on the Internet, so again, I tend to give more credence to those who actually know the folks in question. Only my opinion, though and I certainly wouldn't bash or pile on those who disagee. I think a little less "heat" and a little more perspective is always a good thing:)

Let's get back to enjoying knives!!

Bill
 
When you talk about design copying, you talk about something that everyone that makes a knife has to do to some extent. Pretty well every shape that is used on a knife now has been used in the past. It is how all those shapes are put together to make a knife that is easily recognizable as being from a certain maker or manufacturer that is important, not that someone borrowed a tip design (like has been done thousands of times from Bob Loveless). It is the theft of the total design (with there sometimes being a few minor changes) that people like myself find deplorable.

Every maker/manufacturer that makes a knife with a slipjoint, lockback, linerlock, drop point, clip point, spear point, trailing point, recurve, double guard, single guard, etc., is taking a piece of the design from someone that did it before them. There is a big difference in taking a certain thing that Renoir did in making his paintings and using it to help make your own style, and in making an almost exact copy of a Renoir painting. One is done by artists that appreciate the style of Renoir. The other is done by hacks that don't have any creativity of their own.
 
copy cats are scum-plain and simple-

its not like the guy couldnt hire someone to use a computer to design a knife his own style and have his chinamen make that instead of stealing another mans concept-but to then say in your adds garbage about who you ripped off-

thats as bad a scumbag as the guy who stole from your grandmother -i will never buy a cs-

as for the strider lies-thats low also,but in all reality who hasnt padded your resume a little-and he did get outed and paid some price for it honor wise-but ill never buy another one of his knives because qc isnt that good for the $$
 
Keith

I agree with you 100% - I guess I was not clear in my post. It appeared to me that Vaako is convinced that Emerson "invented" the tactical tanto and that Strider copied him - I disagree, as the "overall look" is indeed different. I don't think most "knife nuts" would mistake a Strider for an Emerson. The Cold Steel issue is complicated by the fact that not only does the knife in question "look" like a Strider, but the ad copy clearly is a dig at Strider, which seems to have started this whole conflagration.

Having said that, $30 is a reasonable price for what CS is selling IMO. That's all I'll say:)
 
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