Enforced ZT MAP, will you give Benchmade a second look?

[PG5768]

Is amazing how many folks with JDs and/or MBAs hang out here on BF.

And are willing to freely share their expertise in the manufacture, distribution, and retailing of cutlery.

Luckily everyone's entitled to an opinion regardless of their knowledge or expertise otherwise these threads wouldn't be so entertaining.











And even with MAP/RPM/UPP I'll still buy knives from Kershaw, ZT, Benchmade, or whoever. Kershawguy and BladeHQ will still be my go to online dealers. I'll even drop by B&M stores like Walmart or Wildsports or if I'm in SLC, Blade HQs B&M.:thumbup:

 

[DShiflet]

I'm not more likely to look at Benchmade, but I AM more likely to skip looking at ZT. That said, ZT still has more designs and materials that interest me, so if I was to look at one, it'd still be ZT.

 

[craytab]

That's collusion.

No, that's life. Don't like it, buy something else, or nothing at all, no one is forcing you.

This thought experiment points to the flaw in the "if you don't like price fixing, then don't buy it" logic: What if we were talking about groceries? What am I willing to pay for food, to feed my family? Is collusion OK in that case, just because people would be willing to pay up to and including everything they make to feed themselves? No of course not.

But we aren't. We are talking about expensive production knives. If you need more money to feed your family I suggest you make more money so you can feed your family or buy more expensive knives or do whatever it is you do with your money.

The free market system works, and must be allowed to work.

But only if it is truly free.

Collusion/MAP/ERP interfere with the market system by limiting opportunities for competition. I am strongly opposed to it and cannot believe the cavalier attitude some display here about it. The market should find the price, period. If you don't think that, then I question your commitment to capitalism and the concept of equal opportunity. It's as simple as that.

Look, dealers can sell Benchmades or ZTs or whatsawhozits for what ever they want but watchamafart company has every right not to sell those dealers any more of their product if they don't go along with the pricing program. Everyone has the RIGHT here. Don't like it? Do something else. Not exactly rocket science and sure as heck doesn't need any lawyer to figure it out.

 

[kershawguy]

And even with MAP/RPM/UPP I'll still buy knives from Kershaw, ZT, Benchmade, or whoever. Kershawguy and BladeHQ will still be my go to online dealers. I'll even drop by B&M stores like Walmart or Wildsports or if I'm in SLC, Blade HQs B&M.:thumbup:

Thank You for that, we the dealers here on BF need your support, regardless of how you feel about a Manufacturer. We are just trying to earn a living and and enjoy it while we are at it.

Dave AKA: Kershawguy

 

[spketch]

Is amazing how many folks with JDs and/or MBAs hang out here on BF.

And are willing to freely share their expertise in the manufacture, distribution, and retailing of cutlery.

No expertise or MBA here, just knowledge of my personal purchasing behaviors. I don't understand how this fixed pricing helps companies producing such relatively low-dollar goods.

If only a handful of retailers can afford to provide the discounts in the long run, it still seems that ZT or benchmade would sell more knives overall by allowing the discounted pricing to continue.

If you have an explanation I'd love to read it. Maybe there is some complex economic principle at work that I'm not aware of.

 

[PG5768]

Sorry, I'm not privy to the inner workings or marketing strategies of any manufacturer. I just accept it for what it is and move on with my life. Still going to buy the knives I like for the best price possible (which now may or may not be higher than before).

...If you have an explanation I'd love to read it. Maybe there is some complex economic principle at work that I'm not aware of.

 

[Scurvy092]

No expertise or MBA here, just knowledge of my personal purchasing behaviors. I don't understand how this fixed pricing helps companies producing such relatively low-dollar goods.

If only a handful of retailers can afford to provide the discounts in the long run, it still seems that ZT or benchmade would sell more knives overall by allowing the discounted pricing to continue.

If you have an explanation I'd love to read it. Maybe there is some complex economic principle at work that I'm not aware of.

What happens if/when that handful of retailers decided they were tired of only making a few dollars on a knife and either raised prices or discontinued selling the knives?

Price wars hurt everyone in the long run.

 

[JarrodS]

Not exactly rocket science and sure as heck doesn't need any lawyer to figure it out.

No, that's precisely what it needs now, and has always needed. There has been a long history of litigation in the US regarding pricing controls - whether to allow them and if so in which situations. The thinking on this has bounced back and forth maybe half a dozen times over the decades. The *only* thing that has been consistent is that it gets propelled in one direction or the other by....lawyers and judges. The history is a pretty interesting read actually:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resale_price_maintenance

One thing the above article confirms is that, if 100 years of legal battles in the Supreme Court have not settled this issue once and for all, we sure aren't going to do it here on a knife discussion forum

Anyway, three cheers for the knife cartel

 

[Scurvy092]

http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_war

 

[austonh]

I was quite sad to hear about the MAP enforcement from ZT. I've been collecting knives for over 2 years now and I feel like the prices have increased drastically over that time period. Whether it's enforcing MAP or actually increasing prices, the result is the same to the end user.

I am more interested in ZT models than BM so the price enforcement is a bit easier to stomach, but it turns me off to their normal models all the same.

Sadly, we the "forumites" are not a large enough segment of the knife purchases to really affect the market and pricing. I have no doubt we are the sole consumers of the LE models, but those will sell out even at full MSRP in minutes so it's a moot point.

Just feeling burnt out with knife collection as prices are ever on the rise in this bubble.

 

[K.O.D.]

It seems to me with ZT that even though they are no longer allowing retailers to have sale prices every so often, the regular prices have remained the same. For example, the 0801 has been $192 on BHQ for quite some time. There was a time where people with accounts could buy them for $165 on BHQ, but that was a short window. This is not the same as what Benchmade has done. Benchmade not only stopped allowing discounts/sales, but they increased the prices significantly. What it comes down to for me, is that ZT is just trying to cover their backsides and not lose money, whereas Benchmade has gone to price gouging. So basically, no, I will not take another look at Benchmade. $165 was a steal for my 0801, and $192 is still a reasonable price for it. $180+ for a BM 940 is not reasonable.

 

[stabman]

For years I always paid full MSRP in stores because I was not on the internet.
Sounds like I'll still be getting knives cheaper than MSRP.

So I cannot work up the energy to give a crap.

 

[K.O.D.]

For years I always paid full MSRP in stores because I was not on the internet.
Sounds like I'll still be getting knives cheaper than MSRP.

So I cannot work up the energy to give a crap.

I concur.

 

[salmonkiller]

What happens if/when that handful of retailers decided they were tired of only making a few dollars on a knife and either raised prices or discontinued selling the knives?

Price wars hurt everyone in the long run.

Please enlighten us as to why Howes discontinued selling the ZT line. You seem to have all the answers regarding hypothetical marketing senerios. What is your opinion re:Howes?

 

[Scurvy092]

It seems to me with ZT that even though they are no longer allowing retailers to have sale prices every so often, the regular prices have remained the same. For example, the 0801 has been $192 on BHQ for quite some time. There was a time where people with accounts could buy them for $165 on BHQ, but that was a short window. This is not the same as what Benchmade has done. Benchmade not only stopped allowing discounts/sales, but they increased the prices significantly. What it comes down to for me, is that ZT is just trying to cover their backsides and not lose money, whereas Benchmade has gone to price gouging. So basically, no, I will not take another look at Benchmade. $165 was a steal for my 0801, and $192 is still a reasonable price for it. $180+ for a BM 940 is not reasonable.

Exactly...

 

[Rival1314]

Its odd how many comments in this thread are calling ZT greedy, when in reality they arent getting any more money per unit sold. What they are doing is controlling the price at which their dealers can sell and therefore creating a baseline profit margin. This allows profits to be determined equally based on overall units sold regardless of the dealer. What this does is help set and maintain a balanced value for their products. This is done in all areas of manufacturing regularly, most famously by Apple. Arguments can be made both for and against, but in a true free market a company shuld be able to sell their products how they please.

It also allows dealers to maintain even grounds by helping negate the "wal-mart" effect. For example:
Dealer A & B both have online stores, however dealer A is online only whereas dealer B has 2,000 stores nationwide. By default Dealer B will sell more units on the whole because their purchasing power allows them to choose to sell at a lower price since they can sell so many. Dealer A now has to contend with the potential for his customers to go to the alternate store for the cheaper merchandise, and if he wants to compete he has to potentially sacrifice his business model which may not be a viable option. Eventually he runs greater risk of not being able to compete and down the road may no longer be a dealer. Now the manufacturer has one less dealer, and when you put the numbers into the real world where 5-6 dealers are undercutting 20-30 others a corporation is putting their established relationships on the line. Remember KAI wants to grow as a company, and that means adding new contracts for dealers and distribution so that they have full market penetration. Sometimes in order to do this you have to make tough choices, like enforcing a policy that allows dealers to compete with each other the old fashioned way.....using advertising, marketing, business relationships, dickering, etc.

The people who state they are never buying ZT again....fine, bye. You arent hurting anyone but yourself. Has the actual product changed...no, just the price you are getting it at. Dont want to pay that much...great, vote with your dollars, because they speak loudest, and right now KAI corps 40 years of marketing is telling them to enforce a policy that provides value to their product and dealer base.

 

[Stays Sharp]

It seems to me with ZT that even though they are no longer allowing retailers to have sale prices every so often, the regular prices have remained the same. For example, the 0801 has been $192 on BHQ for quite some time. There was a time where people with accounts could buy them for $165 on BHQ, but that was a short window. This is not the same as what Benchmade has done. Benchmade not only stopped allowing discounts/sales, but they increased the prices significantly. What it comes down to for me, is that ZT is just trying to cover their backsides and not lose money, whereas Benchmade has gone to price gouging. So basically, no, I will not take another look at Benchmade. $165 was a steal for my 0801, and $192 is still a reasonable price for it. $180+ for a BM 940 is not reasonable.

You know, this is a big reason why I chose not to comment on the move yet. It's too soon to tell but it seems that ZT's can be had for the same prices that they were supposed to ($240 0562CF, $192 0801 as examples) and honestly, the value is still very much there at those prices. I'm a big BM fan mind you but have been vocal about their MAP enforcement from day one. Partly because price jumps of 35% really hit home (710 going from $111 to $156 overnight for example), and it doesn't help that they never enforced it before so that jump really hurt...

ZT has enforced MAP a few times when dealers get too "competitive" as to undercut the minimum price by a big margin. Dealer prices got kind of wild the past few weeks with the 0562's release... I just have to wonder how cheap Knifeworks planned on selling the CF's What I'm saying is, them cracking down has happened before and it just might be a cycle. BM's was a full on 35% artificial price hike hammer no questions asked LOL.

 

[cncpro11]

The price increase or price enforcement or whatever means I may have to cut my purchases by two or three knives a year.

I really like the ZT 0770cf, and if I decide to buy it, the increased price means I have to wait maybe another 3 weeks.

Big deal.

When Benchmade enforced the price I was upset for about a day.....10 months ago.....back in November, but then I moved on with my life.

 

[MikeKu825]

MAP creates a grey area between price-leadership and price-fixing. The problem isn't so much that we all have to pony up some extra cash for the knives we want, the problem is that this type of market control is borderline price-fixing and it's anti free market. Anyone who likes their freedom and feels a responsibility to protect it, should care. I'm fully in agreement with JarrodS on this one.

For me, I rarely buy anything new. I enjoy the challenge of deal hunting on secondary markets, unless I'm supporting local business.

 

[jac_solar]

MAP creates a grey area between price-leadership and price-fixing. The problem isn't so much that we all have to pony up some extra cash for the knives we want, the problem is that this type of market control is borderline price-fixing and it's anti free market. Anyone who likes their freedom and feels a responsibility to protect it, should care. I'm fully in agreement with JarrodS on this one.

For me, I rarely buy anything new. I enjoy the challenge of deal hunting on secondary markets, unless I'm supporting local business.

As long as it's only "slightly inconvenient", most people won't really care about these types of changes. However, the corporations and the "people in charge" are most likely very much aware of this, and instead of doing something that could get a lot of attention, they gradually move towards their goals. "Their" goals? To have as much control over the free market as possible, in order to earn as much money as possible.