How do you guys feel about China copies?

[Murdamook]

I am pretty sure there are no active design or utility patents on the Sebenza. I didn't search that hard and some patents may be hidden, but I could find no active patents. I don't know about Hinderer or Strider. I do know that Emerson has patents on the wave.

 

[cziv]

It seems like the nastiest posts and the most long-winded as well, are coming from the "pro design theft" contingency. I've bought several Hinderers and CRKs.

When I fondle them I'm sure they make me feel a lot happier than those of you who buy and carry knives from Chinese "design thieves" can experience with the cheap knock-offs.

Not even going into the build quality for $100 folder area of this huge argument either. My knife is a tool - I use it - my knife cuts as well as a $500 original - NO, you're the tools!

I'll enjoy my real stuff and you enjoy your ripped off fakes,

Carry on.

 

[espnazi]

More to do with patent expiry which is why clones are not currently illegal.

Exactly, or the thing is simply not patented. You ever see those stands in the mall that have sunglasses that say "compare to Oakley" but are actually 100% visually the same? The item is not illegal because it does not have the brand name or trademarked logos.

 

[nopyo]

I would love to see this question asked outside of the knife community:
"Would you rather spend $500 on an American made knife or $20 on a replica?"
I bet the general population would have a completely different bias than the knife community.

 

[JAB]

I would love to see this question asked outside of the knife community:
"Would you rather spend $500 on an American made knife or $20 on a replica?"
I bet the general population would have a completely different bias than the knife community.

Only if the people you ask are wearing fake Rolexes, fake Nikes, fake Prada, etc.

 

[woody d]

I would love to see this question asked outside of the knife community:
"Would you rather spend $500 on an American made knife or $20 on a replica?"
I bet the general population would have a completely different bias than the knife community.

simply because they know no better. does a $400 Ruger 9mm do the job? sure, but i bet my $1600 Sig would shoot circles around it.

 

[nopyo]

Only if the people you ask are wearing fake Rolexes, fake Nikes, fake Prada, etc.

That's quite the assumption.

simply because they know no better. does a $400 Ruger 9mm do the job? sure, but i bet my $1600 Sig would shoot circles around it.

I think it's more a matter of need vs want. If people do not need the money for anything else and they want a nice looking design, they'll buy the real one. If they need the money for other things, and they want the same nice looking design, then they'll more likely settle for a replica until a time comes when they don't need the money anymore and buy a real one.

You shouldn't just call anyone who makes a decision to buy a replica an immoral idiot who doesn't know better.

 

[JAB]

That's quite the assumption.

No more than yours.

Let's make it a little more realistic and compare apples to apples...

Ask a member of the general population if they'd rather have a low priced, quality knife produced by a reputable company which offers a great warranty vs a POS knockoff of dubious quality and origin and see which they pick then.

 

[Murdamook]

simply because they know no better. does a $400 Ruger 9mm do the job? sure, but i bet my $1600 Sig would shoot circles around it.

My $500 Glock shoots just as well as your $1600 Sig. My $800 USP shoots better than your $1600 Sig. Rugers aren't replicas or copies of Sigs, so your point is entirely moot. Are you so incredibly happy with your Sig that you feel the need to change the subject entirely?

I think Nopyo's point-it may be misguided-is that most of America couldn't fathom spending $500 dollars on a knife, period. I think if an unknowing individual was educated on the subject they may opt for the $500 knife-without actually purchasing it, of course.

The Ruger vs. Sig thing was already sorted out pages ago in the car company, generic cereal discussion; it's the same basic idea.

 

[snowreaper1]

Its funny that some people are spending between $100-$150 on a clone knife and think they are getting a deal because they didn't have to spend the $400 for a real Sebenza. For around $100-$150 you can have your pick of so many great knives that are backed with great warranties and you don't have to second guess the materials they are using is what they say they are.

And then theres the issue of where your money is going when you spend it. I would much rather support American owned small business that brought something to the market through their hard work and dedication which we as consumers can enjoy. Or support the people who take the easy way and rip off intellectual property with no regard for the people who created it. All they are bringing to the market is sub standard materials, rip off designs, and shotty workmanship all for the low price of who gives a damn.

 

[stoffi]

Most semi-clones are around 5-20USD a pop. Some of the really nice ones go up to 50-ish. I'm sure there are more expensive ones as well, but those are not as common.

As a knife hobbyist, I must say it's kind of cool that one can fork out 100-200USD and get pretty much every major variation of a pocket folder and get a feel for the different types of grinds, blade shapes, locking mechanisms and so on. 200USD will get you something like 20-40 knives, whereas the same budget get's you only one or two mid-range authentic USA-made ones. Clones are a very quick fix and a great way to trampoline your way into the hobby.

This moral witch-hunt is kind of like telling everyone in a village not to jump into bed with the super-hot town nymph. You can't beat the market forces -- only adapt to them.

 

[Magnaminous_G]

This moral witch-hunt is kind of like telling everyone in a village not to jump into bed with the super-hot town nymph. You can't beat the market forces -- only adapt to them.

+1. This.

Also, for those of you in the "integrity" camp, you might not know it, but there are different levels of clones. There is a huge, noticeable difference between a $50 Louis Vuitton bag clone and the real deal. Of course. The $50 bag looks like a fake and falls apart after a few weeks. But do you know what the difference is between a $500 Louis Vuitton bag clone and the real deal? Nothing. They take a real bag apart in China, use social engineering techniques to get company secrets on material procurement, and make the exact same bag, down to the stitching, with the exact same materials.

A Louis Vuitton bag only costs about $400 to make. The extra $4600 in cost is for the name and exclusivity.

 

[RemyKaze]

It seems like the nastiest posts and the most long-winded as well, are coming from the "pro design theft" contingency. I've bought several Hinderers and CRKs.

When I fondle them I'm sure they make me feel a lot happier than those of you who buy and carry knives from Chinese "design thieves" can experience with the cheap knock-offs.

Not even going into the build quality for $100 folder area of this huge argument either. My knife is a tool - I use it - my knife cuts as well as a $500 original - NO, you're the tools!

I'll enjoy my real stuff and you enjoy your ripped off fakes,

Carry on.

Aside from fakes, you think a $100 knife doesn't cut as well as a "semi-custom"? Even if it is "real stuff" from a production company?

 

[Guyon]

As I've already written, I don't buy the "integrity" argument. If Hollywood wants to fight piracy, they should realize they are in the 21st century information age and adjust their business model accordingly. They should offer movies and TV shows cheaper and with easier, instant access. If Hollywood expects the average person to pay $30 for a DVD with all kinds of invasive, anti piracy software crap just for the privilege of watching a movie, then that is evil. They shouldn't be surprised that some guy is going to realize he can just download it for free and be watching the movie in 10 minutes. Then Hollywood buys off politicians with their money and gets those politicians to pass increasingly draconian laws to punish students and single moms, sticking them with fines of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of dollars for downloading a few songs or shows.

Who's evil? I know which one I side with. It's a pity some of you are siding with the companies under this banner of "integrity." What integrity?

Ah yes, the "I want something for nothing" argument. A product of a generation so used to instant gratification that anything out of reach has to be rationalized away as evil.

 

[flipe8]

I would love to see this question asked outside of the knife community:
"Would you rather spend $500 on an American made knife or $20 on a replica?"
I bet the general population would have a completely different bias than the knife community.

But, we're not outside the knife community and we are talking about knives. I would think if you asked most people about something they viewed as a hobby/lifestyle/interest , most would likely hold similar views as most of us "knife enthusiasts" regarding fake knives.

 

[not2sharp]

But, we're not outside the knife community and we are talking about knives. I would think if you asked most people about something they viewed as a hobby/lifestyle/interest , most would likely hold similar views as most of us "knife enthusiasts" regarding fake knives.

So are we talking about fakes, knock-off designs, cheap import knives, replicas, or something else? We seem to be using these ideas interchangeably when we shouldn't be. There is the cheap stuff sold by people like Bud-K, and then there are outright fraudulent copies of the type that often turn up and are misrepresented on the auction sites. I have no issue with cheap knives. Novice collectors have to start somewhere and a $10 knife is just as effective as a $400knife in familiarizing the beginer on poor design choices; if it is a poor steel then they will have ample opportunity to learn how to sharpen and maintain their knives.

This is very different from intentionally marking a knife with another's trademark and tryng to pass it on as an original.

n2s

 

[cziv]

Aside from fakes, you think a $100 knife doesn't cut as well as a "semi-custom"? Even if it is "real stuff" from a production company?

That's correct. I think my edcs in Duratech 20CV or CTS-XHP XM-18 will cut rings around a clone advertising "d2" which is pretty well accepted as being something like 8cr13mov.

 

[Morrow]

Wow, really? Your integrity is defined by the knife you carry?

Your integrity isn't defined by some worthless object riding in your pocket, or by what a bunch of whining desk jockeys on the internet say. You are a very, very sad creature if you think your integrity is defined by a tiny chunk of steel.

Your behavior in this thread has me a bit irritated. Tone down the name calling and overall insulting tone.

 

[stoffi]

The edge holding on most of my chinese knives is on par with a regular Mora knife.
I've gotten them hair-poppin' and that's more than enough for general use.
Some chinese knives I've got have really bad steel though and they can't be used for much.

 

[Dorito Monk]

I would love to see this question asked outside of the knife community:
"Would you rather spend $500 on an American made knife or $20 on a replica?"
I bet the general population would have a completely different bias than the knife community.

Very good point. Ask your better half / sister / the nearest female if they're willing to buy knockoff designer clothing, or if they've done so in the past. I've never heard a woman whine about knockoff purses being 'morally wrong' or attack people's integrity for even thinking about buying them. Before coming to these forums, I never heard anyone get offended over those junk 'Ronex' or 'Feiko' watches you see being sold on street corners - everyone knows they're junk, but I'd never heard someone crying over Rolex's lost profits. I'd certainly never been told what a horrible person I was for dropping 10$ on a novelty watch I knew to be junk.

Never mind the fact that 90% of the general population likely thinks that people who drop 500$ or more on a single knife are out of their fudging minds (as anyone who's ever talked to non-knife people can attest). The average person seems to think that knives top out in quality at Buck and Victorinox, from my experience, so the idea of spending thousands of dollars on a tool that performs the exact same function as their trusty 110 would be just ludicrous to normal people.

In fact, the vast majority of people I know have either knowingly or unknowingly bought fake or knockoff products. Does that make them all horrible people? Just because some anonymous forumites say so? I can't tell you how many times I've heard something like: "I went to Canadian Tire to pick up a hammer. They had this Estwing brand one and then this other one that looked exactly the same but was ten bucks cheaper, so I bought the cheaper one," or even "The store carried the Apple-brand phone charger, but it cost 50$, so I bought the store-brand one that was exactly the same thing minus the logo for 15$."

It boggles my mind that a bunch of people a thousand miles away are getting their panties in a bunch over other people buying knockoff items. I do wonder, though, if this excessive moralizing extends only to your pet hobby (ie: knives), or if you cry over knockoff Gucci bags and electronic devices alike. I wonder how many of you folks who are so adamantly telling others what to do, or your families, have a bunch of cheap knockoff items laying around (whether your know it or not)...