How do you guys feel about China copies?

[woody d]

My $500 Glock shoots just as well as your $1600 Sig. My $800 USP shoots better than your $1600 Sig. Rugers aren't replicas or copies of Sigs, so your point is entirely moot. Are you so incredibly happy with your Sig that you feel the need to change the subject entirely?

I think Nopyo's point-it may be misguided-is that most of America couldn't fathom spending $500 dollars on a knife, period. I think if an unknowing individual was educated on the subject they may opt for the $500 knife-without actually purchasing it, of course.

The Ruger vs. Sig thing was already sorted out pages ago in the car company, generic cereal discussion; it's the same basic idea.

im pretty sure you missed my point entirely. the average joe would throw down 400 for a basic 9mm and be content knowing that it will do the job if they get put in a bind, and then theres "elitist d-bags" like me who wanna shoot 1 1/2" groups at 25 yds so they go out and buy a Sig 210. i wasnt implying Ruger was a Sig copy, just a more budget minded pistol.

 

[Dorito Monk]

im pretty sure you missed my point entirely. the average joe would throw down 400 for a basic 9mm and be content knowing that it will do the job if they get put in a bind, and then theres "elitist d-bags" like me who wanna shoot 1 1/2" groups at 25 yds so they go out and buy a Sig 210.

What about the people who can shoot 1 1/2" groups with a dirt-cheap Norinco or surplus gun and then laugh at the people who paid 1000$ more than they did for the same end result? I guess they'd have no integrity and be awful people for even thinking about not buying a big-name gun.

 

[flipe8]

So are we talking about fakes, knock-off designs, cheap import knives, replicas, or something else? We seem to be using these ideas interchangeably when we shouldn't be. There is the cheap stuff sold by people like Bud-K, and then there are outright fraudulent copies of the type that often turn up and are misrepresented on the auction sites. I have no issue with cheap knives. Novice collectors have to start somewhere and a $10 knife is just as effective as a $400knife in familiarizing the beginer on poor design choices; if it is a poor steel then they will have ample opportunity to learn how to sharpen and maintain their knives.

This is very different from intentionally marking a knife with another's trademark and tryng to pass it on as an original. n2s

Based on my understanding of the this thread's title and th OP's original question, I'm talking about knives that are pretty clearly intended to be sold as CRK/Strider/Hinderer clones or fakes or whatever you choose to call them. I'm certainly not the sharpest knife in this drawer, but I've got a pretty good idea of a knife that has many design features of a popular model vs. a knife that has been clearly copied right down to sometimes inlcuding the trademark.
I don't have a problem with cheap knives either, but a blatant copy is something different(to me, anyways).
The post you quoted from me was directed at someone acting like they're surprised people here, in a knife forum, would be passionate about a touchy subject regarding knives. In the context of a knife forum, I don't care if someone is making fake/knock-off handbags or watches and if I did I'd go to a handbag or watch forum and dicuss them.

 

[cziv]

Very good point. Ask your better half / sister / the nearest female if they're willing to buy knockoff designer clothing, or if they've done so in the past. I've never heard a woman whine about knockoff purses being 'morally wrong' or attack people's integrity for even thinking about buying them. Before coming to these forums, I never heard anyone get offended over those junk 'Ronex' or 'Feiko' watches you see being sold on street corners - everyone knows they're junk, but I'd never heard someone crying over Rolex's lost profits. I'd certainly never been told what a horrible person I was for dropping 10$ on a novelty watch I knew to be junk.

Never mind the fact that 90% of the general population likely thinks that people who drop 500$ or more on a single knife are out of their fudging minds (as anyone who's ever talked to non-knife people can attest). The average person seems to think that knives top out in quality at Buck and Victorinox, from my experience, so the idea of spending thousands of dollars on a tool that performs the exact same function as their trusty 110 would be just ludicrous to normal people.

In fact, the vast majority of people I know have either knowingly or unknowingly bought fake or knockoff products. Does that make them all horrible people? Just because some anonymous forumites say so? I can't tell you how many times I've heard something like: "I went to Canadian Tire to pick up a hammer. They had this Estwing brand one and then this other one that looked exactly the same but was ten bucks cheaper, so I bought the cheaper one," or even "The store carried the Apple-brand phone charger, but it cost 50$, so I bought the store-brand one that was exactly the same thing minus the logo for 15$."

It boggles my mind that a bunch of people a thousand miles away are getting their panties in a bunch over other people buying knockoff items. I do wonder, though, if this excessive moralizing extends only to your pet hobby (ie: knives), or if you cry over knockoff Gucci bags and electronic devices alike. I wonder how many of you folks who are so adamantly telling others what to do, or your families, have a bunch of cheap knockoff items laying around (whether your know it or not)...

You sure have changed brother. Like I'm going to ask my wife & daughters if it's cool to buy knock off knives or their advice on any of my sporting goods purchases? Gucci bags? Estwing boots? WT*???

My father taught us to buy "gear" not stuff - when it came to hunting, fishing and wilderness items. Buy the best and it lasts a lifetime (maybe not always but you know what I mean).

 

[flipe8]

What about the people who can shoot 1 1/2" groups with a dirt-cheap Norinco or surplus gun and then laugh at the people who paid 1000$ more than they did for the same end result? I guess they'd have no integrity and be awful people for even thinking about not buying a big-name gun.

You could probably tell them to stop being elitist by laughing at others and judging how they spend their money

 

[Dorito Monk]

You could probably tell them to stop being elitist by laughing at others and judging how they spend their money

Lol, Norinco elitists. That'd be a sight to see...

"I can't believe you bought that Raven Arms when you could have bought a top-quality extreme duty Norinco of the highest order and felt the pride of ownership of such a thing wash over you and purify your soul!"

EDIT: I don't know if you guys have Norinco guns in the states, what with the import bans, but to give a little bit of context: Norinco is a Chinese maker that deals almost entirely in inexpensive knockoffs of prominent gun patterns. For example, their pistol line includes knockoffs of the Colt Woodsman, Sig P22_ Series, Browning Hi-Power, Tokarev, CZ-75, etc. By and large, they're considered Dirt-guns here, but a few folks swear by their quality.

 

[woody d]

What about the people who can shoot 1 1/2" groups with a dirt-cheap Norinco or surplus gun and then laugh at the people who paid 1000$ more than they did for the same end result? I guess they'd have no integrity and be awful people for even thinking about not buying a big-name gun.

not necessarily...i have several surplus guns (rifles and handguns) and some shoot pretty well, but that really doesnt have anything to do with what i was getting at....some folks take pride in the fact that they scrimped, saved and bought the best, while others will buy a product that'll get the job done. if what they buy isnt a cheap rip-off, i have no problem with that.

 

[unit]

not necessarily...i have several surplus guns (rifles and handguns) and some shoot pretty well, but that really doesnt have anything to do with what i was getting at....some folks take pride in the fact that they scrimped, saved and bought the best, while others will buy a product that'll get the job done. if what they buy isnt a cheap rip-off, i have no problem with that.

I take no issue with this at all, but I ask the question: If a person is only interested in the end result, wouldn't they be wise to purchase the MOST cost effective tool for the job? In which case, wouldn't a retractable (disposable blade) box cutter probably win out?

Not everyone buys things with exactly one purpose in mind. In fact many people buy things with something in mind that has seemingly NOTHING to do with the assumed designed purpose of the item (such as currency, and stamp collectors). While not everyone collects...it is something to consider as a common thread here, and a plausible explanation for the utter misunderstanding of both sides of this discussion.

 

[stoffi]

Yah! For instance, I've bought different knives to try them out and I keep the ones that I think are good for my purposes. Others I just sell or give away.
Buying really cheap knives, which are really close to the ones I'm looking at sort makes it easier to finally decide when to save up for that ultimate, high-end knife.
I've bought way too many expensive knives and been disappointed in them, so it's nice to be able to try a cheap version first.

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

Dorito, I think you're misconstruing the argument against clones. Not all clones are necessarily evil. What makes it wrong isn't just that it happens to be cheap and shares design elements. It's copying the entire design and marketing using the original name, without consent from the parent company. Virtually all of your examples, outside of the Gucci bag knockoff, etc, don't really fall into that category. And for the record, I think that Gucci bag knockoffs, fake Rolexes, and the like, are just as wrong. I can categorically say I don't own any of those. I used to get a lot of clone airsoft guns, which are by and large, copies of the originals. Those were all sent to me free of charge for review, and while I gave them an honest rap, I don't own any of them any more--with one exception. I do still own a "clone" that took a great design, and actually improved on it. It's the same in many ways, but they improved on all of the design flaws in the original, and THAT, I think, is how a clone should be done. If you're going to reverse engineer something, then figure out what you don't like about it, and improve it, that's a whole different story.

I have to say, the people who are getting on their high horses seem to be the pro-ripoff crowd, with your "Don't tell me how to spend my money, and don't say that I'm doing something wrong, even if I'm consciously and knowingly supporting thieves." Many schools of ethics argue that intent and knowledge count. Which puts the people who unknowingly own a clone in a different camp from someone who knows perfectly well that the product is a knockoff, and buys it anyways. Not to mention the BS line about how the companies need to "adapt to the changing market." That's so patently ridiculous that I have trouble processing it. Put yourselves in Chris Reeve's shoes. How exactly is he supposed to adapt to people stealing his designs? He's running a small operation, and has considerably more costs associated with production than a Chinese company who steals his design, copies it detail for detail, and then markets it using his name and often branding. How would YOU adapt to the times. And even if there were an answer, how exactly do you claim that's at all fair, ethical, or right?

 

[stoffi]

But a SRM 710/Mingren 910 Plus/Navy K507 isn't even in the same ballpark as a real CRK Sebenza.
You can't get that level of fit and finish and high-end materials without high costs and that's what his knives are all about.
I don't see how he'd be losing any customers. Rather, he may actually gain MORE customers (me included),
since people can purchase a nice "homage" piece from China and catch the bug.

I'm only talking about knives that are heavily inspired by an authentic knife, not the ones which are sold as the real thing but aren't (branded).
That's plain wrong imo, but using a design and doing something new yet similar with it,
which SRM and those brands do, (adding different features) is OK in my book.

 

[woody d]

what i dont understand is that folks are under the impression that you can buy a copy and "get the feel" for the real thing....shame on me for using another car comparison,
but isnt that alot like driving a kit car to "get the feel" for cruising down the road in a Ferarri? the performance and refinement simply isnt there.

 

[cziv]

what i dont understand is that folks are under the impression that you can buy a copy and "get the feel" for the real thing....shame on me for using another car comparison,
but isnt that alot like driving a kit car to "get the feel" for cruising down the road in a Ferarri?

What I'm noticing is the really good replicas cost a good chunk of change that can be used toward saving for a real one. I saw $120 Sebenzas and you can buy a user in the $300+ range if you watch the exchange.

 

[stoffi]

what i dont understand is that folks are under the impression that you can buy a copy and "get the feel" for the real thing....shame on me for using another car comparison,
but isnt that alot like driving a kit car to "get the feel" for cruising down the road in a Ferarri? the performance and refinement simply isnt there.

Sure you can buy a copy of a knife and get a feel (idea of function) for the real thing. It's a hunk of metal!
I sometimes printout expensive knives to spec and cut them out of cardboard to get an idea of what that knife would be like,
before ordering it (tedious I know). You won't get the feeling (sentimental or idea of function)
of being in a Ferrari by cruising down the boulevard in a Pontiac Fiero kit-car though.

 

[Nixelplix]

And there it is.

 

[5.56]

And there it is.

Yep, the Pontiac Fiero Ferrari Kit reference works every time.

There is no arguing that point.

 

[woody d]

Yep, the Pontiac Fiero Ferrari Kit reference works every time.

There is no arguing that point.

do i detect a bit of sarcasm? LOL

 

[5.56]

No. It's a truism.

Check out my "Ferrari"

Edit to add: Not my car!!!!And i think it's supposed to be a Lambo??

 

[Indianbladenoob]

Intellectual Property is Real Property!
Larceny, theft, robbery, stealing is wrong ethically.

Trust me when I say I am probably the cheapest mofo on this forum, and that's not just because the currency exchange rate. I ended up paying $36 for my Kershaw Scamp and almost $45 for my Kershaw Crown because of international shipping and customs duties. Those were still the cheapest quality knives I could afford. I still went ahead choosing them over a large number of Chinese fakes I could procure at less than half that. I have seen a Sebenza clone in a flea market that looked good enough to fool most people who have never seen or held a Sebenza and cost all of $15. I did not buy it.

Why? Well firstly I don't steal or buy stolen property. And IT BLOODY WELL IS stolen property. Secondly, the options for beautiful and beautifully made blades at prices I can afford exist and in significant numbers. The CRK clone actually had the engraved CRK logo on it. I avoid Sanremnu or whatever that is called because I am yet to see evidence that Chris Reeves has allowed the use of his design.

 

[RiverRat84]

Where'd the OP go?

Honestly it's your money and from what I had read you don't care about "BIG" business (I'm sure Chris Reeve would get a chuckle out of that) nor do you give a flaming crap about quality. You just want a cool looking knife, whether it falls apart in a month or comes to your door jacked up after waiting a month for it to come from...who knows where seems to be a none issue so have at it as these knock offs seem to be right up your alley.

Just keep in mind that everytime an imitation or knock off knife is sold a baby kitten angel looses it's wings. You don't want that on your shoulders do you?

As far as the panty twisting that this subject brings up, well it seems the people getting the most worked up are the ones who don't care either way about the original topic. Which is hilarious considering you are getting so agitated at people for getting so agitated

Oh the internet It's ok for people to have different point of views, truly, as long as they are exactly like mine