Honestly, I don't have the time to make you understand the error in your analogy (with all due respect).
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How do you guys feel about China copies?
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Honestly, I don't have the time to make you understand the error in your analogy (with all due respect).
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While I do think there's compelling reasons on both sides (for instance, I do believe that all knives are some kind of variation on a fairly small number of basic designs), there's a difference between that, and outright copying something, so you can trade on someone else's reputation, design, and work. There's a reason that the knockoffs are SO much cheaper, and it doesn't have to do entirely with the relative materials cost, worse F&F, worse heat treat, and other corners cut during the manufacturing process. It's also that they don't have to subsidize any R&D, or spend the time building up a reputation for a quality product so that it comes into demand, or pay for advertising. Instead, they capitalize on OTHER people's reputations and hard work and advertising.
For those of you who think it's only about where you drop dollar one, perhaps consider it this way. I'll wager you probably have something that you've worked hard on, and are justifiably proud of. Everyone's hopefully got at least something worth being proud of. Maybe it's a damn fine batch of vegetable stock. Maybe it's a book, or a script for a movie. Maybe it's a game you've designed. Maybe it's a better way to pitch a baseball. Heck, maybe it's just that you've built up a reputation for throwing the best parties around. Now imagine that someone else came, after you'd done all the work, and started doing the same thing, and started trading on your reputation. Say they steal your recipe, copy it exactly, without any changes, or your story, or your program, or throw a party exactly the same way. People start going to their parties, or praising their cooking skills, etc. How are you going to feel about that?
It's even worse in the case of product designs that get stolen, because the ONLY reason people even consider buying that product, is because the knockoff is trading on the reputation that the original designer has put lots of time, money, and effort into building. Yes, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. But considering that Spyderco, Kershaw, Cold Steel, Benchmade, and many other companies offer licensed products made overseas, why can't they just pay for a license to make the design, or do a collaboration, or design their OWN knife. It could even be based on the same product, but with some changes to the design. Many knifemakers are pretty generous and even-keeled souls. They aren't money grubbing bastards, by and large. The same is not true of someone who steals designs, copies them, and doesn't help out the person who put all the effort into developing a product that's WORTH copying.
I guess what I'd have to say is that, while nobody can, or should, tell you how to spend your money, there's something pretty deeply wrong about making your living stealing from someone else. And I don't see how you can call it anything else. Most of these products even get marketed using the original name. How hard would it be to make a few design changes, and change the name? Then they're banking on their OWN product and reputation, and while people may remark on the similarity between it and the original product, it's not like they're using the advertising and reputation of the original to drive their own sales.
For those of you who think it's only about where you drop dollar one, perhaps consider it this way. I'll wager you probably have something that you've worked hard on, and are justifiably proud of. Everyone's hopefully got at least something worth being proud of. Maybe it's a damn fine batch of vegetable stock. Maybe it's a book, or a script for a movie. Maybe it's a game you've designed. Maybe it's a better way to pitch a baseball. Heck, maybe it's just that you've built up a reputation for throwing the best parties around. Now imagine that someone else came, after you'd done all the work, and started doing the same thing, and started trading on your reputation. Say they steal your recipe, copy it exactly, without any changes, or your story, or your program, or throw a party exactly the same way. People start going to their parties, or praising their cooking skills, etc. How are you going to feel about that?
It's even worse in the case of product designs that get stolen, because the ONLY reason people even consider buying that product, is because the knockoff is trading on the reputation that the original designer has put lots of time, money, and effort into building. Yes, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. But considering that Spyderco, Kershaw, Cold Steel, Benchmade, and many other companies offer licensed products made overseas, why can't they just pay for a license to make the design, or do a collaboration, or design their OWN knife. It could even be based on the same product, but with some changes to the design. Many knifemakers are pretty generous and even-keeled souls. They aren't money grubbing bastards, by and large. The same is not true of someone who steals designs, copies them, and doesn't help out the person who put all the effort into developing a product that's WORTH copying.
I guess what I'd have to say is that, while nobody can, or should, tell you how to spend your money, there's something pretty deeply wrong about making your living stealing from someone else. And I don't see how you can call it anything else. Most of these products even get marketed using the original name. How hard would it be to make a few design changes, and change the name? Then they're banking on their OWN product and reputation, and while people may remark on the similarity between it and the original product, it's not like they're using the advertising and reputation of the original to drive their own sales.
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I have no issues with manufacturing origin provided the items are from a reputable company and are of good quality and design.
Counterfeits however are illegal for good reason and I do not support counterfeits, no high horse, I'm not a fat desk jockey, I'm certainly not an elitist.
It is interesting that those who defend the counterfeit industry in this thread are also throwing derogatory remarks at those who are anti-counterfeit, I already question their integrity but the childish remarks only confirms my opinion of them.
Call me what you will, I stand by my opinion on this matter.
On another note - the unbranded clones (sterile seems to be a popular name) are often leaving the same factory as the counterfeit branded goods, buying these items still supports the counterfeit industry.
Buy Chinese brands who are decent enough the bring out their own products under their own branding, they can produce some great stuff from watches to knives.
Counterfeits however are illegal for good reason and I do not support counterfeits, no high horse, I'm not a fat desk jockey, I'm certainly not an elitist.
It is interesting that those who defend the counterfeit industry in this thread are also throwing derogatory remarks at those who are anti-counterfeit, I already question their integrity but the childish remarks only confirms my opinion of them.
Call me what you will, I stand by my opinion on this matter.
On another note - the unbranded clones (sterile seems to be a popular name) are often leaving the same factory as the counterfeit branded goods, buying these items still supports the counterfeit industry.
Buy Chinese brands who are decent enough the bring out their own products under their own branding, they can produce some great stuff from watches to knives.
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To my understanding this is incorrect, the branding was likely done by a third party trying to pass the goods off as the real deal. That is why the maker making the better finished clones is no longer leaving them sterile and now machining either his name or the word 'Titanium' where the original branding would be placed.
Ex.
riz_aaroni
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I think it isn't a point of branded or not, but why people buy them. On a current for sale thread, there is a Hinderer knockoff. 99.9% of the users on here know what it's a knockoff of. The reason you'd buy it is because of that said reason. There is the possibility that a non-knifey would see it, like it and buy it. Though I'm sure that particular one was made to capitalize on the brand a hard working person established and buy his name on.
Copying aspects of different knives and making it your own is one thing (I'm sure this is just human nature) but fakes are solely there to profit of designs that somebody else made and made popular.
My desk jockeyness may be bar none, but I'm confident there are thousands with the same view digging trenches or what have you, making your line of work irrelevant in this discussion.
Buy legit, move on. I'm sure we'd all have a good time downing some cold ones, chopping some wood up and kicking back by a fire....no sense in arguing over something as basic as this. IMO but YMMV.
+1
That was the worst analogy I have ever encountered. Try to deposit a fake hundred-dollar bill, then deposit the real one; after that, run away quickly. Try to cut a rope with a real Sebenza, then cut a rope with a fake Sebenza; you know have two ropes that have been cut. A fake dollar bill is nearly useless. A fake Sebenza-or whatever else-still cuts like a knife.
I am not supporting the production of copies, but I am also not condemning it. Many of the people that shell out for the copies wouldn't buy the real thing anyway. It's not entirely different from media piracy. Most of what people steal-dvds, cds, bluray, etc.-they wouldn't purchase anyway. The only issues I have with the copies-in terms of sales and consumer spending-is that people are being duped by the sellers into thinking the knives are real. The people who knowingly buy the copies are either unwilling to purchase the real thing-so no cash lost-or are trying to do comparisons-like our friend on the previous page.
To the OP: you make your own money, spend your own money. Don't let the thoughts of others-unless they are related to the quality issues: i.e. breaking, chipping, etc.-influence your decisions. Just because one guys says you "lack integrity or moral-fiber" for purchasing a copy, doesn't mean you actually do.
riz_aaroni
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Buck Vantage Pro for half that with same steel. Plus you can get the Para 2 for a bit less than that. Plenty of choices.
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To my understanding this is incorrect, the branding was likely done by a third party trying to pass the goods off as the real deal. That is why the maker making the better finished clones is no longer leaving them sterile and now machining either his name or the word 'Titanium' where the original branding would be placed.
Ex.
I fixed a typo - 'are' replaced by 'as' - my mistake.
An example is Panerai, sterile Panerai designs from parts to fully assambled watches are produced in the same factories as the counterfeit branded items, they are the very same parts or fully assembled watches sans fake logo - the counterfeit system is there to make $$$ and there is a growing market for sterile items.
The whole sterile / hommage thing as another debate but the fact remains - they are often part of the same illegal practice and help fund the racket and whilst the obvious logo may not be present the registered / copyright design / design features remain.
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woody d
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Nice one....Is this your quote.....or did you......copy it
of course i did...but with permission LOL
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For the people saying it's immoral and a matter of ethics- I would bet good money that every single one of you own something that was copied/ripped off from another. Hell, most popular smartphone apps are blatant copies of the original. Most modern cars steal technology from others. Do you buy the off-brand cereals that are exactly the same as the original but double the amount for half the cost and MAYBE sometimes use cheaper, less quality ingredients? So many products we use today (computers, phones, clothing) are made in sweatshops with underage kids with horrible working conditions and barely any pay- keep that in mind if you're feeling high and mighty.
In my opinion, there are people who appreciate the art and time that come with custom knives, and there are people that aren't going to overpay for that. Like some have said, buying a knock-off is taking a bit of a gamble, but if it pays off (seems like it generally does) I can definitely see it being worth the risk.
In my opinion, there are people who appreciate the art and time that come with custom knives, and there are people that aren't going to overpay for that. Like some have said, buying a knock-off is taking a bit of a gamble, but if it pays off (seems like it generally does) I can definitely see it being worth the risk.
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As I've already written, I don't buy the "integrity" argument. If Hollywood wants to fight piracy, they should realize they are in the 21st century information age and adjust their business model accordingly. They should offer movies and TV shows cheaper and with easier, instant access. If Hollywood expects the average person to pay $30 for a DVD with all kinds of invasive, anti piracy software crap just for the privilege of watching a movie, then that is evil. They shouldn't be surprised that some guy is going to realize he can just download it for free and be watching the movie in 10 minutes. Then Hollywood buys off politicians with their money and gets those politicians to pass increasingly draconian laws to punish students and single moms, sticking them with fines of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of dollars for downloading a few songs or shows.
Who's evil? I know which one I side with. It's a pity some of you are siding with the companies under this banner of "integrity." What integrity?
Who's evil? I know which one I side with. It's a pity some of you are siding with the companies under this banner of "integrity." What integrity?
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All kinds of problems with this (and you'll have to forgive me if this sounds like a rant; I'm an ethicist by training, and moral discussions are one of my very favorite things).
1. Most popular smartphone apps are free, and public domain. Totally different question.
2. Car technology is generally not stolen tech. If it were, you'd see lawsuits up the wazoo. Car companies also can afford to be a lot more aggressive about design infringement, because they're much larger. Most of the designs you're talking about are public domain, and can legitimately be reproduced. They're also not exact copies intended to capitalize on another product's name. More, the vehicles produced aren't exact copies. That's like saying that every folding knife is a copy because they all use the same technology in a pivot pin. I'm sorry, but that's just not the same thing.
3. Generic products, such as breakfast cereals, are generally not exact copies, and can only be produced when the patent protection is over. Sure, the fact that there's no way to enforce patent protection across international boundaries means it's not technically illegal. But it should make you stop to think about the matter that a company in the same country that tried to do what these Chinese knockoff companies do would get shut down, because it WOULD be illegal then. It's still wrong, it's just the only way to enforce it is for consumers not to buy them.
All of the things you've mentioned come about by people playing by the rules. These knockoff companies exist specifically to flaunt the rules. They wait until a product becomes popular, and then copy it. They don't wait until it becomes public domain, they don't seek licenses, and in fact in many cases, they specifically try to use the other company's advertising and marketing to push their own products in direct competition. That's considered illegal for same-country businesses virtually everywhere, for reasons that ought to be obvious.
Even if you're right, and we do have the occasional product that's produced under unethical circumstances, there's a further logical fallacy in your argument when you assume that because we have to tolerate some unethical business practices, that therefore ALL unethical business practices are somehow ethical and okay. Maybe people aren't perfect, and there are some products that are unethical copies that we just don't know about. But I'd venture to say that none of the people you're attempting to call out have products that they KNOW are produced in the same way that knockoff knives are, and if they found out that the product they buy WAS produced in a similar fashion, they'd stop buying them.
I think your argument is good as far as it goes, but could stand to be thought through a little more. The legalities and the ethics are totally different in your examples. Generics come about as close as it gets, but the original company still gets full patent protection. The same is not true in this circumstance. In order for the ethics or legality to be the same, the products would have to be accepted legally as public domain by the parent company. It's not that copying things is inherently wrong. It's the whole attitude and the timing and way that the copying gets done that generates the ethical dilemma. The actions of the companies clearly illustrate an intent to use someone else's design, reputation, and name to sell their product, and often in direct competition with the original product. Sure, there are some people who would probably never buy the original. But others would save up for it, and their interest in the fake is generated ENTIRELY from their interest in the original.
I think you also show your hand when you mention that people "overpay" for the art and time that goes into custom knives.
It's not about being high and mighty. It's about doing the right thing when you have the opportunity to do so. The world is already a crappy enough place. It doesn't need us to do whatever we want purely out of self-interest, regardless of what the right thing to do might be. That usually requires sacrifices, which makes it actually harder to become high or mighty.
How do you propose Chris Reeve "adapt to the times" and somehow sell his Sebenzas at a competitive price with the people knocking off his designs? Especially when he has to pay for R&D and advertising and QC, and his competitors don't?
I'm fairly sure the only thing that could be prosecuted would be trademark infringement, and that only applies to fakes that uses the originals company's name/logo. Knives are patentable only certain features such as the Axis lock, Emerson wave, or the like and CR never patented the framelock. That is why things like 1:1 clones of rolexes or patek watches are not illegal as long as they are not marked as the real deal.
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